Pizza Sputnik...

[Jackie Tran]

Scott r, that is a good idea to compare the old starter vs wash starter. 

Alexi, from the side view I guess I couldn't see the big bubbles on top.  When I do CFs, I guess I wouldn't call a dough with big bubbles on top way blown out, but I would say that it is reaching overfermentation and the window of useability is declining.  I have no basis for this other than from what Jeff Varasano says that you want to use the dough before this.  You may be correct about it being overblown, but even when using CF doughs with big bubbles on top, I haven't gotten a heavily sourness.  I would say slight sourness at the most, and at the least some good flavor depending on the starter. 

I also don't know if a CF dough is much different than room ferments, but will say that room ferments seem to have a smaller margin for error.  It seems to be easier to overferment room temp fermented doughs compared to cold fermented dough especially at the % of yeast that I use.  I like to make 6-8 hour doughs.

Also when I divide and ball my dough after a bulk rise, I usually will bake once the dough has doubled or a bit more.  When I flip the dough over, I am looking for a dough structure similar to this one I posted in reply #71
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11962.60.html
Would you say this is similar to the structure in your picture above? 

I will say that when I get this type of look to the dough, I never get or notice big bubbles on the top of my doughballs.  Usually some very tiny bubbles here and there under the skin.

Chau

[ponzu]

you can always leave some of it unwashed and compare

I am doing that Scott.  Thanks.

What was your opinion on the appearance of the doughball?  Overfermented or not?

AZ

[ponzu]

Scott r, that is a good idea to compare the old starter vs wash starter. 

Alexi, from the side view I guess I couldn't see the big bubbles on top.  When I do CFs, I guess I wouldn't call a dough with big bubbles on top way blown out, but I would say that it is reaching overfermentation and the window of useability is declining.  I have no basis for this other than from what Jeff Varasano says that you want to use the dough before this.  You may be correct about it being overblown, but even when using CF doughs with big bubbles on top, I haven't gotten a heavily sourness.  I would say slight sourness at the most, and at the least some good flavor depending on the starter. 

I also don't know if a CF dough is much different than room ferments, but will say that room ferments seem to have a smaller margin for error.  It seems to be easier to overferment room temp fermented doughs compared to cold fermented dough especially at the % of yeast that I use.  I like to make 6-8 hour doughs.

Also when I divide and ball my dough after a bulk rise, I usually will bake once the dough has doubled or a bit more.  When I flip the dough over, I am looking for a dough structure similar to this one I posted in reply #71
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11962.60.html
Would you say this is similar to the structure in your picture above? 

I will say that when I get this type of look to the dough, I never get or notice big bubbles on the top of my doughballs.  Usually some very tiny bubbles here and there under the skin.

Chau

JT,

I would say that the dough balls pictured in your thread look great.  Bubbles only on the bottom, not the sides.  Nice smooth appearance to the surface with no big bubbles.  For me when the sides of the dough in the glad container are like a sponge, that's a bad sign.  (Again only real experience is with CF doughs.)

To my eye mine looked blown out.  Perhaps I should have shot the ball from multiple angles to capture this.

Thanks,

AZ

[scott r]

definitely try less rise!   

[BrickStoneOven]

This dough was made with 3% starter and bulked for about 20hrs at room temp. You can see that it has the same "honeycombing" and overblown top. The taste of the dough when cooked was really sour and pretty slack. To me, I thought and still think this dough was very over fermented.

[ponzu]

Brickstone,

Thank you for your pictures.  Looks overblown to me too.  So useful to see others bad batches to add to the library of possible results.

With the bulk rise of my slack batch, there was no visible honeycombing on the outside of the dough.  Only the inside.

how much volume expansion was there?  Also have you had success with the same starter with shorter bulk rises?

AZ

[c0mpl3x]

overproofed sourdough starter you have there

[BrickStoneOven]

That was my first every batch using a starter so I didn't really know what I was doing with feeding routine and mixing incorporation. I have had better efforts with that starter now but I would still like to get some more taste out of it. I have put that one aside for now and reactivated another and have that on reserve. The batch was just under the 2qt. line when I starter the bulk ferment. The shortest bulk rise that I have done with the starter was 20hrs. I am using CY right now to get to a base point that I feel comfortable with then I will start to incorporate a starter back in.

The taste of the dough when cooked was really sour and pretty slack.

I meant to write elastic not slack. It was due to the fact that I only let it proof for 3hrs when balled so it didn't have a chance to relax.

[Jackie Tran]

I would agree that David's dough is overfermented, especially given the sourness.  In the bottom left corner of the last pic, it looks like a bubble has collapsed from overexpansion.   David do you recall any ovenspring when this was baked?

I wonder if this dough will make a decent loaf of sourdough bread?

Alexi, looking forward to seeing your results between the 2 starters and if they will behave differently or not.

Chau

[BrickStoneOven]

I made a sicilian out of the dough because I didn't want to waste 1.5hrs preheating the stone. From what I remember it did have a decent amount of spring; not the greatest but ok.

[ponzu]

It is on.  I mixed up 3 1000 g batches tonight. 

From left to right

1.  IDY NASA dough.
2.  Washed Austrian starter Sputnik.
3.  Austrian starter Sputnik.

Observations.

None of the doughs had Nasa like tear resistance coming out of the Bosch, though all were sheetable. 

Of the three the washed Austrian dough was the most Nasa like in gluten develpment.

It's Bulk rise time.
 
AZ

[Jackie Tran]

Excellent detective work.   So have you figured out what the ideal fermenation time at room temps for this austrian starter?

[ponzu]

Excellent detective work.   So have you figured out what the ideal fermenation time at room temps for this austrian starter?

JT,

I understand less each day I make pizza!  I have no idea what to make of my Austrian starter.

Last night I made pizzas from the Nasa dough, the sputnik unwashed and the sputnik washed.

Observations, 

1.  All 3 doughs were quite strong easily passing the "stretch and dress on the granite counter and slide the pie onto the peel afterwards test."

2.  The 0.1 % yeast Nasa dough rose a lot more than the natural starter dough in the same amount of time ( about 200% vs 100 % expanson in 13-14 hours.)  No real difference in oven spring.

3.  The taste of the natural starter doughs were a bit more complex and interesting than the Nasa dough.  Absolutely no sourness in any of the doughs.  Between the washed and unwashed starter dough's I could detect no difference.

4.  Although i like the asthetics of the 45-60 second high heat pie,  I much prefer the taste and texture of a 120 second bake at a stone temp of 750-800 in the home oven.  Much crispier.  More char.  No gum layer.

The pies pictured are a high heat nasa margarita,  and a moderate heat unwashed starter margarita salami and egg,  and a washed starter salami.

AZ

[Jackie Tran]

Makes sense that the IDY would provide more lift but it intrigues me that there would be no difference in oven spring considering a 100% difference in rise.  I have been interested lately in doing a similar test.  Making dough with an under vs fermented vs well fermented dough (all from the same batch) to see if there is a difference in ovenspring.

It sounds like you were correct in that your original dough was just overfermented.  I'm curious to know the differences in dough expansion rates of the original austrian starter dough vs the recent unwashed  starter dough.

Did it originally take 16 hours to double?  Then you proofed it another 4 hours I believe.

With the current unwashed starter dough, did you ball it from the get go and just used it once it doubled in 13-14 hrs or was there some proofing time after the bulk?

I guess im curious to know if the 2 doughs behaved differently given it was the same starter.   Did they both doubled in volume at different rates?

Chau

[ponzu]

Makes sense that the IDY would provide more lift but it intrigues me that there would be no difference in oven spring considering a 100% difference in rise.  I have been interested lately in doing a similar test.  Making dough with an under vs fermented vs well fermented dough (all from the same batch) to see if there is a difference in ovenspring.

It sounds like you were correct in that your original dough was just overfermented.  I'm curious to know the differences in dough expansion rates of the original austrian starter dough vs the recent unwashed  starter dough.

Did it originally take 16 hours to double?  Then you proofed it another 4 hours I believe.

With the current unwashed starter dough, did you ball it from the get go and just used it once it doubled in 13-14 hrs or was there some proofing time after the bulk?

I guess im curious to know if the 2 doughs behaved differently given it was the same starter.   Did they both doubled in volume at different rates?

Chau

Yeah I agree that it is suprising that the greatly expanded IDY dough did not exibit more oven spring.

It seems to me that the factors that are reproducibly delivering increased oven spring are

1.  ideal gluten level:  strong but expandable.
2.  Stone temp:  the puffiest cornicione is always the hottest stone temp given the same dough conditions.
3.  adequacy of fermentation:  ie there don't have to be a lot of big bubbles but there have to be a lot of bubbles to expand with the blast of heat.  (  I think BillSFNM's 9 day russion dough crumb is the most beautiful example of this phenomena.)

I agree with your conclusion about the last dough being over fermented.  I just don't know why.  I am truly at a loss when it comes to the starter.  Possible reasons for the change in fermentation levels were

1. that the starter was magically healed by the last feeding of caputo prior to putting it back in the fridge. (unlikely)
2.  That a slightly longer fermentation time had an exponential effect on the degree of fermentation.
3.  the temp was about 3 degrees cooler at room temp this time around.
4.  some factor that I have not even considered.  (likely )

I terms of the doubling time for the last dough, I wasn't continually watching it so I guess its possible that it doubled much sooner and plateaued at that level for several hours.

With all three doughs; 1. IDY Nasa dough, 2. unwashed austrian starter dough (ie the exact same starter as last time), 3. the washed austrian starter dough, I did the same thing; 13 hour bulk rise, then ball and proof.

The only difference is that since with the 20 minute autolyse and 20 minute post mix rest each dough finished about an hour after the prior batch, I retarded the balls of the IDY dough for 2 hours, and the unwashed dough for 1 hour in the fridge, so all three doughs would have about the same time to proof at room temperature (3-5 hours).

The thing that I am really struggling with now is that the 1 minute pies look so much better to me, but the 2-3 minute pies taste so much better-  More crunch but still tender in the crumb no gumminess or doughiness.

I have so much left to tinker with to get this right.

[ponzu]

I baked 2 pies tonight with dough 48 hours cold fermented after balling wednesday's dough.  The first is a classic neapolitan made with the washed austrian culture dough.  The second is a more new york/newhaven flavor profile with the san marzanos emulsified with garlic oil, sugar, oregano and salt. 

Both were baked at a stone temp of 750-800 about 3" from the broiler element on convection broil.  about 2 minutes plus or minus 15 seconds.

Both were delicious with  a thin crispy veneer of char on the crust with a moist crumb.  The washed starter had more flavor (even in comparison to wednesday but still no sourness.), and the Nasa a more uniform crumb.

Pictures below:  First 3: washed starter Sputnik. Second 2: IDY NASA.

[scott r]

great news that things are picking up!

[tAdavis]

Ponzu,

I just read through this whole thread, and those pies are looking great! After reading more past posts from scott r and yourself, I'm really impressed with the results of the sub 60% hydration level dough. So much so, I've been inspired to lower the hydration levels in my dough. Sure enough, the results have been great.

Keep up the good work... I'll be making some pies here in the next few days, and will try to contribute a recap and pictures of the results.

TD

[ponzu]

Ponzu,

I just read through this whole thread, and those pies are looking great! After reading more past posts from scott r and yourself, I'm really impressed with the results of the sub 60% hydration level dough. So much so, I've been inspired to lower the hydration levels in my dough. Sure enough, the results have been great.

Keep up the good work... I'll be making some pies here in the next few days, and will try to contribute a recap and pictures of the results.

TD

TD,

I'm so glad to hear that you have gained something from my nascent pizza journey.  That is both suprising and humbling.  I am very much looking forward to your pictures and reports on your bakes.

I was also suprised by the behavior and results from my  initial attempt at 59% Nasa dough.  This along with the finding that the texture of a well developed IDY dough could taste great really rocked my world and forced me to deal with some unfounded beliefs that I held for no good reason.  Namely that High hydration doughs were better, and that wild yeast tasted better than commercial yeast.

That being said I made a batch of 60% hydration Nasa dough with 50/50 caputo pizzeria and 50% KABF. 0.2 % IDY and 1% oil that I bulk rose 9 hours divided into 3 370 g balls and proofed 3 hours for a college football party today.   baked up 2 14 inch pies.  A Pep and the margarita.  Baked 1 rack lower on the pizza stone at a stone temp of 725. About a 3 minute bake.

These pies were tasty.  A little less crisp with the lower stone position but I did like the browning of the dough with the KABF. The larger format was fun and no problem with this space aged dough.  The 60 % dough felt a little wetter coming out of the bosch but was just as easy to work with.  14" is about all my peel and oven can handle.

AZ

[pizzablogger]

Looks like the pies are getting really good, Sputnik or NASA.

Nice progress!