Pizza Sputnik...

[gtsum2]

those are looking real good!

[ponzu]

I mixed up a 4 ball batch of the following

Flour:60%KABF, 40 % Caputo Pizzeria
Water: 61%
salt: 2.8 %
Austrian starter fed with 50/50 caputo/whole wheat flour:  4%

Following a 20 minute autolyse I then mixed up the whole batch for a total of 6 minutes.

I then took off one ball.

Then I mixed another 2 minutes (total 8 minutes) and took off another ball.

I then mixed 2 minutes on speed 2 (total 10 minutes)  and took off the final 2 balls.

Following a 20 minute rest I sheeted all three doughs.

I was very suprised that in terms of strength and sheetability, the 6 minute dough was by far the best followed by the 10 minute dough, followed by the 8 minute dough.

pictures are 6, then 8 then 10 minute doughs.

I don't know what to make of this finding.  Let's see how they bake up.

[Jackie Tran]

This is a very cool experiment.  I'm looking forward to the bake off.  2 questions...

1) did they each get a 20m post knead rest then pictures were taken? Or did you sheet & take all the pictures after the 6 min dough reached its 20min rest?

2) how big was the total batch and how big were the individual balls?

[dhs]

Hi everyone,
In my testing/experimenting I have come to the conclusion that the mixing has a huge impact on the final doughs working characteristics. For a long time I had been mixing and kneading by hand. Not too long ago I bought a Bosch Universal and about the same time started working with Caputo Pizzeria (before was AP) and started baking in a wood fired oven. So a lot of things changed and my dough became inconsistent in terms of extensibility and strength. It had me scratching my head trying various things. It wasn't until recently that I did an experiment similar to the one above to see how the finished dough worked compared to mixing time. Longer mixing time really increased the extensibility of the dough but also reduced the strength. Short was harder to stretch but stronger.

I guess what I am getting at is I was surprised at how much impact the kneading time had. Much more so that I had previously attributed to it after focusing so much on the flour, yeast, water, ferment time.

[ponzu]

This is a very cool experiment.  I'm looking forward to the bake off.  2 questions...

1) did they each get a 20m post knead rest then pictures were taken? Or did you sheet & take all the pictures after the 6 min dough reached its 20min rest?

2) how big was the total batch and how big were the individual balls?

Ahh, the effects of the rest.  Great point JT.

The pictures were taken 20 minutes after the last batch was placed on the counter, so the 6 minute dough had a 4-5 minute head start.  However I re tested the doughs after another 10 minutes and the results were unchanged (and though they all improved the 8 and 10 minute dough never caught up to the original state of the 6 minute dough.  I don't understand it.  This experiment needs repeating to confirm the results of course.

The batch was 4 330g balls.

[ponzu]

Hi everyone,
In my testing/experimenting I have come to the conclusion that the mixing has a huge impact on the final doughs working characteristics. For a long time I had been mixing and kneading by hand. Not too long ago I bought a Bosch Universal and about the same time started working with Caputo Pizzeria (before was AP) and started baking in a wood fired oven. So a lot of things changed and my dough became inconsistent in terms of extensibility and strength. It had me scratching my head trying various things. It wasn't until recently that I did an experiment similar to the one above to see how the finished dough worked compared to mixing time. Longer mixing time really increased the extensibility of the dough but also reduced the strength. Short was harder to stretch but stronger.

I guess what I am getting at is I was surprised at how much impact the kneading time had. Much more so that I had previously attributed to it after focusing so much on the flour, yeast, water, ferment time.

Totally agree.  Dough handling is paramount in the equation of pizzamaking.

AZ

[Jackie Tran]

From my few experiments I have witness a miraculous change in the dough with a prolonged rest period.   I'm willing to bet the first dough had the best sheetability due to the longer rest.  Even a 5 min rest can do wonders for a dough.   Beyond 30-45m, and you should see that all 3 doughs will sheet similiarly. 

I'll find the link later but in my bosch experiments I show the effects of the rest period on both a hand mixed dough and one from the bosch.   

DHS - more important than the effects of mixing times, is the condition of the dough.  Try paying attention to the dough's stretchability afer mixing.    Now, change the hydration ratio and/or the flour and mix to the same dough condition.  You will get more consistent results with your dough by paying attention to the condition of the dough rather than numbers per se.  This is referred to as the "point of dough". 

Chau

[ponzu]

From my few experiments I have witness a miraculous change in the dough with a prolonged rest period.   I'm willing to bet the first dough had the best sheetability due to the longer rest.  Even a 5 min rest can do wonders for a dough.   Beyond 30-45m, and you should see that all 3 doughs will sheet similiarly. 

I'll find the link later but in my bosch experiments I show the effects of the rest period on both a hand mixed dough and one from the bosch. \

JT,

The rest effect is undeniably important.  This is why I waited another 10 minutes after the original 20 minute rest and photo and sheeted the doughs again.  This might not have been clear from my above post, but even after an additional 10 minutes of rest  (ie 8 to 5 minutes longer than the "6 minute dough" respectively for the 8 and 10 minute doughs) the original 6 minute dough had the best strength, smoothness, and windowpaning.

In summary the 6 minute dough had better qualities than the 8 and 10 minute doughs even when these were given a longer rest than the 6 minute dough!

Incidentally,I baked up the 8 minute dough (the weakest) today for lunch.

It actually stretched very nicely and stretched easily to 16 inches.  It was strong enough to dress and slide onto the peel.  Unfortunately this size  is to big for my peel and the "drape over the sides" technique doesn't work well for me in my oven set up due to my limited vertical clearance.  The pizza was U-G-L-Y .  It was also quite thin and tasty with a tender crumb.

[Jackie Tran]

JT,

The rest effect is undeniably important.  This is why I waited another 10 minutes after the original 20 minute rest and photo and sheeted the doughs again.  This might not have been clear from my above post, but even after an additional 10 minutes of rest  (ie 8 to 5 minutes longer than the "6 minute dough" respectively for the 8 and 10 minute doughs) the original 6 minute dough had the best strength, smoothness, and windowpaning.

In summary the 6 minute dough had better qualities than the 8 and 10 minute doughs even when these were given a longer rest than the 6 minute dough!

Incidentally,I baked up the 8 minute dough (the weakest) today for lunch.

It actually stretched very nicely and stretched easily to 16 inches.  It was strong enough to dress and slide onto the peel.  Unfortunately this size  is to big for my peel and the "drape over the sides" technique doesn't work well for me in my oven set up due to my limited vertical clearance.  The pizza was U-G-L-Y .  I was also quite thin and tasty with a tender crumb.

Ah, I see.  So when you re-tested the doughs 10 mins later (now 30 mins rest) you were just testing the 8 and 10 min kneaded doughs and the 6 min dough still better Nasa qualities.  Hmmm,  I don't doubt your results, but this does call for further investigation.   

I would say that if the longest kneaded dough hasn't been overkneaded for the specific protein level and hydration ratio, at some point (after prolonged rest, perhaps 1 hour?), they should all equalize out in terms of Nasa quality but that is just a theory of mine. 

Either way, your results either should show that less kneading or more kneading is better.  Opposite of the results you did get which is that the 8 min dough had the poorest performance.  Perhaps you weren't trying to show anything specific and just did the test to see what would happen.  Definitely a lot of factors go into making dough and at any point in the game, we can inadvertently skew the results somehow somewhere.  I've done this many times.  Not saying you did anything wrong either.   I hope this is not coming across in any negative way.  Not my intention at all. 

Thanks for doing this experiment and for posting the result.  I enjoy reading & discussing it with you. 

Chau

[ponzu]

So I baked one ball of each the 6 and 10 minute doughs tonight.

the 6 became the a 1/2 margarita, 1/2 pepperoni, the 10 a quattro formagi.

Observations:

1. The opening properties of the dough very much mirrored the results of the post mix rest testing last night.

-The 8 (posted earlier today) was easy to open but in some way weak and lacking in structure.
-The 6 was both easy to open and had excellent strength.I spread it out to its desired size without any fear of tearing.
-The 10 was easy to open to a point but was resistant to stratching beyond 13 inches.  It was a bit less smooth than the 6, but very much smoother and stronger than the 8.

2.  In terms of baking characteristics.  the 6 and the 10 had nice oven spring.  Interestingly the 10 had by far the most leoparding (supporting JT's hypothesis that mixing intensity correalates with leoparding.)

3.  The sourdough taste was fragrant and mild with no acidity.

4.  The crumb was open and airy in both the 6 and the 10.  and the texture was soft and yielding.

Although I think the quattro formaggi was probably visually my favorite pie I've baked to date, I am definately still preferring the crispiness of the more blackened New Haven/New york coal looking pies.

I am really starting to feel confident in the bulk rise with starter protocol ( only 2 short bakes since my overfermented dough adventure! )

[Jackie Tran]

I almost can not believe what I am looking at.  The 6 and 10 min pie had the same amount of cold ferment and baked in similar fashion, yet 2 distinct looks?  The difference is 4 min of kneading?  Even I don't know what to say...

And the 8 min pie was flat as ever, destined to be a poor bake from the get go.  Alexi, I have no ideas of what to make of your experiment.  Other than dough and pizza are mysterious in nature.

[ponzu]

Ah, I see.  So when you re-tested the doughs 10 mins later (now 30 mins rest) you were just testing the 8 and 10 min kneaded doughs and the 6 min dough still better Nasa qualities.  Hmmm,  I don't doubt your results, but this does call for further investigation.   

I would say that if the longest kneaded dough hasn't been overkneaded for the specific protein level and hydration ratio, at some point (after prolonged rest, perhaps 1 hour?), they should all equalize out in terms of Nasa quality but that is just a theory of mine. 

Either way, your results either should show that less kneading or more kneading is better.  Opposite of the results you did get which is that the 8 min dough had the poorest performance.  Perhaps you weren't trying to show anything specific and just did the test to see what would happen.  Definitely a lot of factors go into making dough and at any point in the game, we can inadvertently skew the results somehow somewhere.  I've done this many times.  Not saying you did anything wrong either.   I hope this is not coming across in any negative way.  Not my intention at all. 

Thanks for doing this experiment and for posting the result.  I enjoy reading & discussing it with you. 

Chau

Chau,

In no way did you imply anything negative.  I wan't offended at all and always enjoy your insights into the pizza baking process.

I can only agree that my results were bizarre.  I guess that we both assumed that gluten  and dough development was a linear process where gluten development is proportional to dough mixing time and intensity.  My results suggest a double hump appearance to this gluten development curve whereby gluten is formed then alterred and/or lost and then formed again at different times during mixing.

Because of the unexpected finding of this experiment I absolutely agree that the experiment should (and will) be repeated.  I would encourage anyone else curious about this finding to perform their own version of the test to evaluate for inter-observer reproducibility of these findings.

One thing I will say about the dough rest issue.  Even if at 1 hour later all three doughs become identical,  It doesn't mean that the initial characteristics of the dough at the 20 to 30 minute post mixing rest are not predictive of the final doughs structure.  Ever since the Scott R Nasa video, I have incorperated this post mixing sheeting test into my routine.  It does seem to really correalate with final dough structure (assuming no intervening disasters like overfermentation or poor dough handling out of the fridge.)

Science is messy.  But at least each of these "experiments"  yields at least one tasty pizza .

[ponzu]

I almost can not believe what I am looking at.  The 6 and 10 min pie had the same amount of cold ferment and baked in similar fashion, yet 2 distinct looks?  The difference is 4 min of kneading?  Even I don't know what to say...

And the 8 min pie was flat as ever, destined to be a poor bake from the get go.  Alexi, I have no ideas of what to make of your experiment.  Other than dough and pizza are mysterious in nature.

I agree JT.  Mysterious. 

I have no bias in this experiment.  I'm just reporting the findings.

All of the differences between the 6 and 10 minute bakes that I can think of at this point.

1. For the "10"; 2 additional minutes on mixing on speed 1 plus 2  minutes of mixing on speed 2.
2. The 6 minute was room temperature fermented in single ball form wheras the 10 minute was bulk fermented in 2 ball form then split and balled prior to retarding.
3. the individual balls of "10" dough were stored in a plastic proofing tray, wheras all fermentation for the "6" was in a glad tupper container.

That's it.

Same 12 hour room temp rise, same 4 hour retarding in the fridge, same 90 minute warm up out of the fridge, same oven set up, baked back to back ("6" first) on convention broil at a stone temp in the upper 700s for about 2-2.5 minutes.  No rimming for either.

 

[Jackie Tran]

Alexi, often times I will get a slightly different bake on the 2nd and 3rd pie.  The only way I can explain this is perhaps the oven is hotter during successive bakes.  But it's a slight difference and not a drastic difference like you experience.

The one time I made a pie that looked similar to your 10min kneaded pie is when I was trying to study and understand leoparding. 

I made this particular pie with a high percentage of starter, hydration ratio of ~60%, hand kneaded using VPN technique for 25min or so, ~6 room ferment, baked straight under the broiler without rimming technique.   Not the non white area under the large raised bumps.  Not your typical leoparded looking pie. 

Reply #228
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html

At the time, I tried really hard but was not a ble to reproduce anything that resembles this pie in leoparding.  Even using the same everything...The crumb was dense and the pie sucked but the spotting was super cool.  I always wonder if it had more to do with the hand kneading or balling technique I was using but more likely due to the fermentation process.

Chau

[ponzu]

I repeated the 6/8/10 experiment this weekend with a 50/50 harvest King, caputo mix, 62% hydration, 3% austrian starter dough.

The results were similar out of the Bosch. 6>10>8 in the sheetability test 20 minutes following the bosch.  (this time truly a 20 minute rest for each dough.)  Not as pronounced difference as last time though.

Opening the dough, these doughs all had ideal strength and elasticity properties.

There were a lot of moving parts during the bake.  I was experimenting with different oven modes and fdifferent fire brick/no stone set ups so it was tough to make out any differences in the dough with baking.

They all had poor oven spring and a mild flavor profile which I attributed to under fermentation.

I am really starting to understand the meticulousness of pizzaioli like Bill/SFNM and Matt with their temperature controlled starter prep and proofing regimens.  Wild yeast is a finnicky creature with room temp bulk rises.  i think the cooler temperature of the fall weather really effected the fermentation rate and yeast activity.

Anyway the first pie is the "8" with salami and egg cooked at about 4 " from the broiler element on fire brick.

The second is a margarita cooked on the pizza stone on maxi-broil 2.5" from the broiler.

[Jackie Tran]

Alexi, great to see you repeated the experiment and came up with similar results.  As if there weren't enough experiments to do, we sometimes feel we have to repeat some to get more concrete answers.  And sometimes these experiments lead to more questions than answers.   

I too have been interested in making or buying a temperature controlled proofing box lately.  As it is I often like to use starters on the weekend when I have more time to keep a closer eye on them b/c of the unpredictability of their nature sometimes. 

Your results still don't make sense to me but I'm not sure pizza making is suppose to always makes sense. 

I baked tonight with a blended dough with a 10% starter that I let overferment by about 1 hour.  The dough wasn't overblown but practically fell apart in my hands.  Made okay pizza but nothing spectacular. 

Looking forward to more of your experiments.  Thanks for posting.

Chau

[ponzu]

Haven't been posting many of my bakes lately.  My technique has been very influenced by the 2-3 Tartine Bread bakes I've been doing weekly.  I feel I can now shape the dough to my schedule using techniques derived from Tartine.

As an example tonights bake began at 1:30 PM when I got back from a round of golf.  I mixed a 65% hydration dough with 100 % Harvest King (APF) flour, 2.7% salt, 20 % camoldoli in the young levain stage.  20 minute autolyse.  Initial water temp 88 degrees.  Mixed 4 minutes in the Bosch.  2.5 hour bulk rise at 80F with a couple of  Tartine turns.  I balled the dough when the dough looked right.  Proofed for 90 minutes and baked at 6:30. 

All in all a 5 hour window from inspiration to degustation!

The dough was airy and light.  The 275 gm ball Easily stretched to 13" amd cooked up Slightly crispy with an open crumb.  There was absolutely no gum layer.  It was baked on broil for 2-3 minutes.  I topped it with thin slices of BBQ brisket that I had smoked on my WSM for 12 hours last friday.

The taste of the dough was complex but not sour and the texture was spot on.  I still struggle with the unevenness of my broiler heat, but that cos,etic defect likely won't be addressed until I build my WFO next year.

[dellavecchia]

Excellent looking pie. I may try this technique.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Nice job Alexi.  I too have been applying what I have been learning from the book to pizza dough with positive results. 

Chau

[Matthew]

Interesting experiment. In the bulk stage, how much did the dough rise?