Author Topic: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza  (Read 8834 times)

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Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2010, 10:30:45 PM »
Each picture below is one cord. A cord is 128 ft³ e.g. a 4' x 4' x 8' stack of wood.



any idea how much that Cord weighted?



Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2010, 11:02:42 PM »
so I have been asking around about wood. this is what I have been quoted

 150dollars roughly 20 sacks at a weight of 40 kilograms each sack, with rough 22 wedges of wood split into 30cm length, by 10 cm thickness. the mass is 1 ton.


so my question is this, in a professional setting or home operation perhaps someone has had a party and made more than 20 pies in one day, roughly how much wood is needed to fuel the fire? and for how many hours?

I'm trying to figure out my costs for the plan, at least trying to get the closest working figure possible.





Offline pacoast

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2010, 11:41:29 PM »
150dollars roughly 20 sacks at a weight of 40 kilograms each sack, with rough 22 wedges of wood split into 30cm length, by 10 cm thickness. the mass is 1 ton.
It's not standard to measure firewood by weight. The standard measure is by volume e.g. by the cord or fraction of a cord.

Weight will vary by the type of wood and how dry it is. I use white oak and a cord of seasoned (dry) wood is about two tons. A cord of freshly cut oak, which would still be too wet to burn would weigh something like three tons. One ton of wood is either less than a cord or it's one of the lightest (and less desirable) hardwoods. Or perhaps even softwood. You could find all of this out with a Google search.

The price of firewood varies a lot by region. And wood consumption will vary with different ovens & how much they are used. I wouldn't buy wood from someone who sells it by the sack. I'd want to know the price per cord (or fraction of cord), whether it is seasoned, what kind of hardwood it was & whether they will stack it on delivery or not. I would guess that my oven uses perhaps 20# an hour, but I haven't actually measured it.


Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2010, 01:56:52 AM »
It's not standard to measure firewood by weight. The standard measure is by volume e.g. by the cord or fraction of a cord.

Weight will vary by the type of wood and how dry it is. I use white oak and a cord of seasoned (dry) wood is about two tons. A cord of freshly cut oak, which would still be too wet to burn would weigh something like three tons. One ton of wood is either less than a cord or it's one of the lightest (and less desirable) hardwoods. Or perhaps even softwood. You could find all of this out with a Google search.

The price of firewood varies a lot by region. And wood consumption will vary with different ovens & how much they are used. I wouldn't buy wood from someone who sells it by the sack. I'd want to know the price per cord (or fraction of cord), whether it is seasoned, what kind of hardwood it was & whether they will stack it on delivery or not. I would guess that my oven uses perhaps 20# an hour, but I haven't actually measured it.



 20 pieces of wood an hour?  is that right?  ummmm seems very high compared to motorinos 6000 pies

the guy said he packs the wood into sacks for cleaner and easier delivery and handling.
he said the wood was OAK..
I will get more information and pictures and post more..
I have used googled, but I can't get any immediate feed back and first hand accounts..
I might have some figures wrong about the weight, I will call them back and make sure..
respond soon

ps I am not talking about 1 ton as in weight, I am talking about 1 ton as in Mass/volume.

so 1 ton is 150 bucks, 2 tons is 300 bucks and 3 tons is 450 bucks.. so like in the picture above where the guy paid 450, you mention thats close to 3 tons.. so maybe its similar..
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 05:05:29 AM by PizzaVera »

Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2010, 05:44:37 AM »
I am no wood expert ,

this is the wood from one of the companies,

this wood looks ok? they say its oak....

I know the prices are different in USA than where I am now.
they are asking 150-180 dollars for 20 of these bundles.





in sacks..

I am just trying to get some information really on how much I need to burn for the oven for at least 8 hours of full operation a night.


« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 05:54:43 AM by PizzaVera »

Offline pacoast

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2010, 04:10:15 PM »
20 pieces of wood an hour?  is that right?

No, I actually meant 20 pounds of wood an hour. Keep in mind that this is just an estimate, not a measured quantity.

Motorino has been reported to use 3 cords a month. They are open about 400 hours a month, so their oven might be fired something like 450 hours a month. That would be umm.. (4000# x 3) / 450 = 27 lbs of wood per hour. Forno Bravo estimates 15 lbs/hour for their ovens, but that's only for a 700F oven. The only other estimate I have seen is for Vesuvio ovens, which are also said to use about 15 lbs/hour, but that is for a 575F oven.


Offline pacoast

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2010, 04:46:44 PM »
ps I am not talking about 1 ton as in weight, I am talking about 1 ton as in Mass/volume.
I don't know what you mean then. 1 ton (mass or weight) would be 2000 - 2240#, perhaps half a cord. 1 ton (volume) is esoteric and ambiguous, but probably means 40 cubic feet, which is about one third of a cord.

At sea level, weight equals mass by definition. Even at high elevations e.g. 10,000 feet, the weight will not vary significantly, something like 0.1%, which is dwarfed by the effect that relative humidity would have on firewood. Most of the members here are in North America, so 1 ton (aka short ton) = 2,000#. In the UK 1 ton (long ton) = 2,240#. And a metric ton, usually spelt as tonne to avoid confusion = 1,000 kg or 2,205#.

On the other hand volume is something entirely different. Using a ton as a volume measure is more esoteric and AFAIK limited to cargo ships and western European common carriers. It's also a variable unit that needs to be defined. A measurement or freight ton in the UK (MTON/MT) would be 40 cubic feet. While a register ton (RT/GRT) would be 100 cubic feet in the UK, but 51 cubic feet in France (tonneau de mer).

« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 06:34:05 PM by pacoast »

Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2010, 01:55:07 AM »
I don't know what you mean then. 1 ton (mass or weight) would be 2000 - 2240#, perhaps half a cord. 1 ton (volume) is esoteric and ambiguous, but probably means 40 cubic feet, which is about one third of a cord.

At sea level, weight equals mass by definition. Even at high elevations e.g. 10,000 feet, the weight will not vary significantly, something like 0.1%, which is dwarfed by the effect that relative humidity would have on firewood. Most of the members here are in North America, so 1 ton (aka short ton) = 2,000#. In the UK 1 ton (long ton) = 2,240#. And a metric ton, usually spelt as tonne to avoid confusion = 1,000 kg or 2,205#.

On the other hand volume is something entirely different. Using a ton as a volume measure is more esoteric and AFAIK limited to cargo ships and western European common carriers. It's also a variable unit that needs to be defined. A measurement or freight ton in the UK (MTON/MT) would be 40 cubic feet. While a register ton (RT/GRT) would be 100 cubic feet in the UK, but 51 cubic feet in France (tonneau de mer).



Yes I was very confused when he told me also, so he said, 1 ton means it will take a 1 ton truck to load it. so all the wood will fit into a  1 ton trucks cargo area.
so you think its 1/3 of a cord? sounds about right, that price is 150bucks, so times that my 3 and we have 450 for a cord?
I will call up again this week and find out more.

he is selling 20 bundles which weight 40 kilos each, so a total of 800kilos for the cargo, which he said will store into a 1 ton trucks cargo area.
for the price is 150 dollars.




Offline pacoast

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2010, 03:15:21 AM »
Yes I was very confused when he told me also, so he said, 1 ton means it will take a 1 ton truck to load it. so all the wood will fit into a  1 ton trucks cargo area.
All I can tell you is that I wouldn't be buying from your guy. You don't have any real measure at all. What will fit in a 1 ton truck is vague at best and certainly does not correspond to 1 ton of volume or any other standardized measurement. The only real information was the 800 kg figure. Judging from your picture it is red oak, so if the weight is accurate and if the wood is well seasoned.. 800 kg x 2.2 = 1760#/3,800 = about 0.46 cord. If the wood is wet, then a lot less & you won't be able to use it for some time either.


Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2010, 04:27:23 AM »
No, I actually meant 20 pounds of wood an hour. Keep in mind that this is just an estimate, not a measured quantity.

Motorino has been reported to use 3 cords a month. They are open about 400 hours a month, so their oven might be fired something like 450 hours a month. That would be umm.. (4000# x 3) / 450 = 27 lbs of wood per hour. Forno Bravo estimates 15 lbs/hour for their ovens, but that's only for a 700F oven. The only other estimate I have seen is for Vesuvio ovens, which are also said to use about 15 lbs/hour, but that is for a 575F oven.


great info here thanks..
 you are saying that Motorino is burning fuel for 450 hours a month , ok.. I am going to say I would be burning for 280hrs a month


do you think this is a fair estimate based on my hours?


750 dollars a month on wood, 4000 kilos(8800Lbs) of combined weight ( 200 bundles of 40 kilo sacks each.)
burning 15 kilos an hour (33LBS) 8 hours a day for a total of 280 hours a month (added more hours for weekend.)



1: fuel cost 750 dollars - (200 , 40kilo bundles of Oakwood)
2: 280 hours of Oven operation (15kilos) 33LBS an hour 8 hrs a day for 30 days.
3: Total weight 4000 kilos (8800Lbs) OAK wood  a month.



Of course there is no way to be sure on this estimate until I am operational and have been trading for 6 months to make an accurate calculation.  I hope I have over estimated.  
I would of course hope to get that figure down 20~ 25%   once I gain experience on wood and the oven.















Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2010, 05:43:50 AM »
All I can tell you is that I wouldn't be buying from your guy. You don't have any real measure at all. What will fit in a 1 ton truck is vague at best and certainly does not correspond to 1 ton of volume or any other standardized measurement.



what will fit into a 1 ton truck? 40 of those bundles in the picture apparently , but yes its vague, I need measurements of the 1 ton trucks cargo area to really know.. I will get on that tomorrow...

but judging by the picture above, do you think 40 of those bundles is an OK price for 150 bucks?


Offline Matthew

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2010, 05:46:59 AM »
what will fit into a 1 ton truck? 40 of those bundles in the picture apparently , but yes its vague, I need measurements of the 1 ton trucks cargo area to really know.. I will get on that tomorrow...

but judging by the picture above, do you think 40 of those bundles is an OK price for 150 bucks?



Why not get it delivered?

Matt

Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2010, 09:23:02 AM »
Why not get it delivered?

Matt

I dont need it yet, i'm Just doing a price estimate for an oven for my business plan

Offline GotRocks

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2010, 05:28:37 PM »
The only legal measure for wood is by the cord or fractions of a full cord. A typical way of stacking a cord of wood is a stack 8 feet wide, 4 feet tall, and 4 feet deep. (128 Cubic Feet)
If the wood is cut to 16" lengths, it takes 3 rows deep to make a full cord, if it is 12" lengths it takes 4 rows deep to make a full cord. This is why it is so important to avoid terminology like "Ricks, racks, face-cords, stove cords, loads, bundles", or to buy using weight" stick with cords and fractions of cords only to keep everything on the up and up

I standard box on a 1/2-ton pick-up truck will hold just shy of 1/4th of a full cord if stacked neatly up to the bed rails, with 2 extra armloads to make up for the space taken up by the wheel wells.

A full cord of seasoned ready to burn hardwoods will weigh in excess of 4,000 pounds in many case, freshly cut wood will easily exceed 6,000-8,000 pounds depending on species.
Oak is notorious for taking several years to dry to a suitable moisture level for cooking use (18%-22% moisture content) so if the wood was cut any less than 36 months ago, it probably is not ready to burn for cooking.
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Offline pacoast

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2010, 07:13:55 PM »
what will fit into a 1 ton truck? 40 of those bundles in the picture apparently , but yes its vague, I need measurements of the 1 ton trucks cargo area to really know.. I will get on that tomorrow...

but judging by the picture above, do you think 40 of those bundles is an OK price for 150 bucks?
A 1 ton truck will ostensibly carry 1 ton of weight. But this varies between truck models. Post #34 shows a "1 ton" pickup that is rated for a 5,100# payload and has a full cord of wood (about 4,000#) in it. In any event, the standard measure of firewood is volume, not weight. I can't comment on the price, this varies too much from place to place and I don't recall you saying where you were located. Ask around locally & compare vendor pricing for your business plan. If better prices cannot be found, then that is a good price for your location.

When actually taking delivery ensure that the wood is seasoned (dry) or that you are dealing with a reputable vendor that remedy unexpected problems. I do like your approach of overestimating your wood consumption. Personally, I would be comfortable with the 15 kg/33# per hour estimate. Business plans that underestimate costs cause a lot of grief. Financing based on a conservative plan is much more likely to succeed.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2010, 08:22:59 PM »
The "one ton" is not a rating of what it can cary.

Offline pacoast

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2010, 09:13:51 PM »
The "one ton" is not a rating of what it can cary.
Yes it is, at least in it's original usage. These labels are historical monikers that date back more than 50 years. The description originally meant exactly what it says. Today, it's just a convenient label to describe a truck that is about the same physical size or type of vehicle.

With better axles, suspensions, etc and a wider variety of optional equipment, the label isn't necessarily literal anymore and a modern "1 ton" truck might have an actual payload capacity anywhere from 1 - 3 tons.

Offline ringkingpin

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2010, 12:23:23 PM »
I do not think it is proper accounting to use fuel cost for a food-cost calcualtion, I feel that fuel wood would be better put in the "operations Cost" category.

Interesting thread. Got rocks i was going to say the same thing, the oven fuel is a fixed cost don't include it in the cost of the pizza otherwise you'd have to include all other fixed costs like electricity for the open sign, hand soap etc. 
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Offline GotRocks

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2010, 11:56:33 PM »
Interesting thread. Got rocks i was going to say the same thing, the oven fuel is a fixed cost don't include it in the cost of the pizza otherwise you'd have to include all other fixed costs like electricity for the open sign, hand soap etc. 

Exactly,
Fuel cost's should not just be ignored, but it should not be figured into a "Food-Cost" calculation.
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Offline gabaghool

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Re: Cost in Neapolitan Pizza
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2011, 09:13:15 PM »
in a 15 $ margherita pizza you'll have usually
about 1$ of dough, 2 $ of tomatoes, about 3 to 5 $ of mozzarella, and 0,20 $ of basil, that makes about 8 $, then count all the equipement in the kitchen, the employees salary, that doesnt make a lot of profit  :P

$1 a dough????  How is this possible??