Author Topic: Pizza Shop Dough  (Read 9481 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2010, 08:06:39 PM »
Awesome Don.  How much old dough did you use? 2 Tablespoons?  or did you use your starter?  If so it was it active or cold to start with?  Rubberbands are good for marking off where the dough starts.  You may wanted to push it down a bit so the side of the dough meets the sides of the container.  As a dough ferments it will often relax and may drop below the starting line. 

Chau


buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2010, 08:54:15 PM »
Um sorry, not trying to be difficult...............and it really isn't germane. But Mark never said that:
 Mark said, suppose I got a dough ball, went straight home and stuck it in the fridge....That's a pretty fresh dough to me.  If you used 50-75% of this old dough in a new batch it would be ready to go in a short amount of time.


And for the next batch, and the batch after that?............well, we shall see.....   

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2010, 09:38:36 PM »
Don ok so I was paraphrasing a bit there.   :P What Mark did say...

You promptly bolted out the door to get the gift home as quickly and safely as possible. and

(the dough is a few days old, although refrigerated)

So unless the doughball has been sitting out at room temps for the last 2 days, then he should still be able to culture a starter from it.   Only Mark can tell us how long it sat out at room temps before going into the fridge for 2 days.  Again, even if he had gotten it into the fridge right away, 2 days is pushing it especially for a commercial dough assuming commercial doughs tend to be high in yeast and made to be used within 6-10 hours.

Also Mark what was the condition of the dough when you received it?  Had it just come out of the fridge and still cold?  Or had it sat out on the counter for 6-8 hours?  Was the ball firm or poofy?   

What is the big deal about making dough from old dough anyhow? or culturing a starter from old dough?  Why would this be so impossible to do?  Again, from what I've read this is how San Francisco sourdough is made.  Can someone confirm or deny that?

Also for the record, I haven't made dough from old dough, but my understanding is that a piece of today's dough is used as a starter/preferment for tomorrow's dough.  Then a piece of tomorrow's dough is used to start the next day's dough, so on and so forth.   You don't use the original dough indefinitely.  That's how I understand it. 

Chau
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 09:40:33 PM by Jackie Tran »

buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2010, 09:48:52 PM »
Well, I await your results then. Even though I consider myself an ethical honest human, others don't know that and might think I skewed the experiment to fit my point of view. There will be a time of no new activity. Actually, I thought Mark typed "what if"
Don


Don ok so I was paraphrasing a bit there.   :P What Mark did say...

You promptly bolted out the door to get the gift home as quickly and safely as possible. and

(the dough is a few days old, although refrigerated)

So unless the doughball has been sitting out at room temps for the last 2 days, then he should still be able to culture a starter from it.   Only Mark can tell us how long it sat out at room temps before going into the fridge for 2 days.  Again, even if he had gotten it into the fridge right away, 2 days is pushing it especially for a commercial dough assuming commercial doughs tend to be high in yeast and made to be used within 6-10 hours.

Also Mark what was the condition of the dough when you received it?  Had it just come out of the fridge and still cold?  Or had it sat out on the counter for 6-8 hours?  Was the ball firm or poofy?   

What is the big deal about making dough from old dough anyhow? or culturing a starter from old dough?  Why would this be so impossible to do?  Again, from what I've read this is how San Francisco sourdough is made.  Can someone confirm or deny that?

Also for the record, I haven't made dough from old dough, but my understanding is that a piece of today's dough is used as a starter/preferment for tomorrow's dough.  Then a piece of tomorrow's dough is used to start the next day's dough, so on and so forth.   You don't use the original dough indefinitely.  That's how I understand it. 

Chau

« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 10:08:47 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2010, 09:51:53 PM »
It is also my understanding that Mark was speaking hypothetically and that he narrowed the scope of inquiry to a dough that is leavened only by wild yeast.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2010, 10:50:15 PM »
Don, first off let me apologize if any of my posts came off aggressive or offensive.  I didn't intend that and my posts were not directed at you.   I simply am stating that it IS possible to make more dough from existing pizza dough and I believe it is possible to make a starter from old dough. 

2ndly, I have no doubt you are an honest and ethical man.  I also would never question your results.  Your results are your results.  Just because you and/or Mark are not successful in making a starter from old dough on your 1st attempt doesn't mean it is impossible either.  It just may be that the conditions were not optimize for it.   All I ask is that you document for us exactly what you did and the baker's % of starter you used (relative to the total flour amount).  Also, I'm an optimistic person and have full confidence both you and Mark will be successful.

I am leaving early tomorrow morning for a week long trip.  If you and Mark are successful and I hope you are, then there is no reason for me to run the experiments.  BUT if you both are not successful,  I will do the experiment once I get back from my trip.  I will attempt to 1) make more pizza dough using old dough and 2) make a viable starter from old dough.  I would hope for you, Mark, and myself to be successful on the first try but realize it may take a few attempts.

In the meantime (assuming you are currently making dough from old dough), can you tell us how much starter (in baker's %) you used initially to make the old dough?  Also how much old dough did you use to make the current dough.  This way we can hypothesize if it will work and approximately how long it should take.  And I agree with you, no doubt there WILL be a period of inactivity.  How long will depend on how much yeast was in the old dough and how much old dough was used.

To make new dough or a starter from old dough, I would personally start with a relative high amount of old dough.  So for new pizza dough, I might start with 20-30% old dough.  If attempting to make a starter, I would soften the old dough with an equal amount of water and then add a bit of flour to that.  Let it sit in a warm place covered (temp of 80's) stir and feed every 3-6hours.  I summize it should take off within 24 hours but that may be dependant on how much viable yeast was in the old dough to begin with.  If it was well proofed, I can't see it not working.

Here's a bit on SF SD bread from Wikipedia (if that can be considered reliable information)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sourdough

Sourdough starter is made with a small amount of old dough saved from a prior batch, and is sometimes called mother dough or chef. This small amount of old-dough starter contains the culture, and its weight is increased by additions of new dough and mixing or kneading followed by rest or leavening periods. A small amount of the resulting dough is then saved to use as old-dough starter for the next batch.[1] As long as this starter culture is fed flour and water weekly, it can stay at room temperature indefinitely.[2][3]

Sourdough bread is made by combining the increased amount of starter with another new-dough addition, along with any other desired ingredients to make the final dough. The starter comprises about 20-25% of the final dough, though particular formulas vary and that ratio may be higher. This final dough may be divided and shaped, then is allowed to rise, and is followed by baking.


Looking forward to the results.   And again, let's keep this light and fun.  ;D

Cheers
Chau

« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 11:01:43 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2010, 12:01:41 PM »
Don ok so I was paraphrasing a bit there.   :P What Mark did say...

You promptly bolted out the door to get the gift home as quickly and safely as possible. and

(the dough is a few days old, although refrigerated)

Also Mark what was the condition of the dough when you received it?  Had it just come out of the fridge and still cold?  Or had it sat out on the counter for 6-8 hours?  Was the ball firm or poofy? 

First, let me start off by apologizing :)  I didn't mean to kick up the dust; I was purposely being vague in respect to Peter Taylor.  I was floored when he handed me a dough and were talking hydration, etc.  I didn't expect to be able to walk out the door with it, but that was his exact intention.  Had I baked it off right away, I'm sure it would have been awesome!  But I wanted to post here and see what could be done with said dough and I sure got my $s worth :D

The ball was more poofy than firm in my opinion and not necessarily cold as Peter had mentioned the balls are room temp fermented and only see the cold for a few scant hours between lunch and dinner service....at least that was my understanding.

I introduced myself to Peter a few weeks ago as his place is next to one of my favorite sushi spots and I mentioned finding him due to this site.  While I'm confident he wasn't sharing anything he hasn't done before in many different places, I didn't want to disrespect his willingness to help me by me coming back and spilling all we had talked about.  I specifically avoided asking pointed questions about his recipe, etc instead focusing on generalities, technique, etc. 

I want to share as much as I can with what Peter helped me out with at the same time respecting Peter for sharing and hopefully being able to do it again in the future :)

Time to fire up the turbos and a Monte 2 before the games kick off  ;D

Mark

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2010, 12:44:33 PM »
Mark,

Your exercise should be much simplified because you will be using only flour, water, salt and your particular array of wild yeast, both what might be in the dough ball that Peter Taylor gave you and whatever wild yeast are hanging around your place and waiting to set up housekeeping in your starter. I had mentioned getting a dough ball from Pete Taylor because I thought it was the shortest distance between two points based on what you said you wanted to do.

I hope you proceed with your experiment and report back on your results.

Peter

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2010, 01:50:17 PM »
Damn, I still haven't created that "thank you Peter" signature, so again....thanks :)

And yes, I'm gearing up for the experiment now and well as making a quick dough for pizza tonite...I just had to get the hp and Cuban cigar cravings out my Sunday system before settling down to "work" :D

buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2010, 04:07:13 PM »
Mark,I still maintain using salt is putting yourself behind the eight ball from the get go as it inhibits the growth of the desired organisms. I have seen some rare recipes using salt with potato starters but no explaination as to what it's use is. It can be difficult enough getting a starter going without the added retarding activity that salt creates. But hey, it's your show.
Regards, Don


Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2010, 06:57:07 PM »
I hear ya Don and appreciate the insight!

As you can tell, I'm a total newb at this so for the cost of some flour and water, it's a cheap experiment.  At worst, I add to the landfill and at best, I'll have an interesting yeast strain that I can use to make a starter :D

Besides, my wife would really appreciate me increasing my AT flour burn-through rate  :-D

buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2010, 09:03:23 PM »
Ahem, Mark, your not admitting publically to having contraband in your possesion in the form of a Cuban cigar are you? heehee
Don
Stupid policy, thank goodness someone figured it out. Finally
oh yea, remember, non bleached flour, no additives such as bromate.


Damn, I still haven't created that "thank you Peter" signature, so again....thanks :)

And yes, I'm gearing up for the experiment now and well as making a quick dough for pizza tonite...I just had to get the hp and Cuban cigar cravings out my Sunday system before settling down to "work" :D
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:11:00 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2010, 01:36:23 PM »
Ahem, Mark, your not admitting publically to having contraband in your possesion in the form of a Cuban cigar are you? heehee
Don
Stupid policy, thank goodness someone figured it out. Finally


Sure am Don :D....and when they come for those, they'd better be prepared to come for the guns too  :-D

I typically order 3 boxes at a time from Spain or Switzerland, ends up costing me less per/stick than a Rocky Patel Sungrown...and at that cost, I'll smoke 'em all day long :)

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2010, 02:00:49 PM »
OK...we have activity!!!

Yesterday afternoon I followed the advice of several members and tore off a few small pieces of the dough, and mixed in some water and flour.  I let this sit for 6 hours, stirring every so often until I had a paste and the dough was actually broken down.

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2010, 02:03:42 PM »
Here are the pics as they progressed through the 6 hour sitting time....

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2010, 02:05:14 PM »
I mixed 100g flour and 100g water for the initial feeding last night then let sit for 12 hours.  Here's what it looked like this morning :)  Another feeding is coming up but the activity looks great to me!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2010, 06:43:46 PM »
So what temp did you keep this at and how long do you think it took before you got activity?  Was it 8 hrs? 10 hrs?

At this point you probably would want to dump half of it out and then feed again with equal or more than the amount you dumped out.  Activity at this point could mean success or not.  I would dump and feed again every time it gets active again (how ever long that takes).  Mark off the level of starter after feeding.  The starter will be ready to use when it has risen about 2" within 1-2hours of feeding.

Good work.
Chau

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2010, 07:02:23 PM »
Thanks Chau!

The temp was about 82o or so....I keep the house about 78, so I put it in the cabinet above the tv in my cave, that seemed to do the trick.

As for time, that's a little tougher to determine.  I tossed in the 100g flour/100g water at 8pm last night and crashed about 2 hours after that.  The pic of the action was taken at 8am this morning, so I'm pretty clueless as to when it actually got started.  I thought about setting the alarm for 2 am to keep the 6 hour rotation going, but I sleep poorly as it is and that would've just exacerbated the issue.

At 8am this morning I added another 100g flour and 100g water to the entire mix, I didn't discard anything.  Around 4 this afternoon, I weighed out 100g of this mix, discarding the rest and added another 100g flour and 100g water.  I plan on doing to same before hitting the sack tonite.

I have to travel this week back and forth to Orlando (long days) but I want to discard/feed again in the early am, then do the same when I get home late afternoon.

The 2" tip is awesome, as I was wondering how I could tell when it was truly ready, and now I know...thanks!

I assume once it's really going then I can do another feed and plunk her in the fridge until I'm ready to use in a recipe?

Mark

buceriasdon

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2010, 07:40:14 PM »
Good Mark, Looks at the moment like things are going well. If you do get a culture going, the true limtus test would be to start a culture using your flour. If nothing happens then there was enough live in the pizza shop dough to start anew.
Don

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2010, 08:03:01 PM »

I assume once it's really going then I can do another feed and plunk her in the fridge until I'm ready to use in a recipe?

Mark

Yes, at least that's how I do it.  I have started 3 starters from scratch.  2 from flour and water, and one from raisens and all 3 have taken 3-4 days for initial activity (less than what you are seeing only after 12 hours) and 6 days to full activity.  I'm pretty certain the activity you are seeing isn't due to any yeast that's in the flour.

Don how did your dough experiment go?  Did you not see any activity (rise) at all in 12 hours?

Chau