Pizza Shop Dough

[StrayBullet]

Thanks y'all!!!  I was really pleased with the results!

It needs to be stretched out a little more, it was a little thick to my liking but the crust was crisp but chewy inside, and obvious air pockets that I dig

I taste was not sour but the crust definitely had character!  I don't know if a 3-4 day cold ferment with IDY is any better/worse, but both stand out as ingredients rather than a platform of toppings.

I baked this off in 5 minutes, with the last 90 seconds moving constantly under the engaged broiler.  Definitely a keeper for me and I've learned a ton about starters, etc in the process!

IN a few hours I bake off my first loaves from Tartine 

Mark

[Jackie Tran]

Good luck with the bake off.  Anxious to see your results.  I would hang onto this recipe and method.  It doesn't get much better in my book. 

And Mark, here's the $100k question.  Do you feel that this starter made all the difference to your lastest pie? 
I see a huge improvement between this pie and the ones you posted before this.  Surely there has been some other changes to your baking, mixing, and/or fermentation protocol.   

And for the benefit of myself and others would you list a bit more detail about the fermentation and bake?

[StrayBullet]

Good luck with the bake off.  Anxious to see your results.  I would hang onto this recipe and method.  It doesn't get much better in my book. 

Thanks!!!  And for sure, this is now my go to recipe!!!  I really liked my standard Tuesday mix, Friday/Saturday bake but this method/recipe has so much more texture, and that's something I really wanted all along

And Mark, here's the $100k question.  Do you feel that this starter made all the difference to your latest pie? 
I see a huge improvement between this pie and the ones you posted before this.  Surely there has been some other changes to your baking, mixing, and/or fermentation protocol.   

And for the benefit of myself and others would you list a bit more detail about the fermentation and bake?

As for the differences, it's hard to pinpoint as I changed so many things at once.  That said, I personally feel the starter had a huge impact as did the ferment method.  My baking method for the most part was the same as was hydration for the most part.  And again, thanks 

I heated the 1.25" soapstone on the bottom rack for 60 minutes with the oven set to 550^o, pics to follow

At the 60 minute mark, I moved the stone to the top rack and every 10 minutes engaged the broiler, switching back to bake as soon as the broiler turned off.  I repeat this for 60 minutes.  Sometimes I engage the broiler for the first 2 minutes of cooking and sometimes I finish with the broiler.  I think after today, the best route may be to boiler for the first full minute, then rotate the set pie under bake for the next 3, finish under boiler as needed/desired.  A lot of work, but for an 11 year-old oven it'll take a little caressing to squeeze out its' best.  For this pie, I baked for 3 minutes, then finished under the broiler for 90 seconds.  I constantly moved the pie for the last 90 seconds trying to achieve an even browning.

As for fermentation, etc.  Everything here was different but here goes   I had my starter fed early in the morning, by this time it was 10 pm at night and the expansion had retreated, many small bubbles were on the top and giving off a sweet floral aroma.  I scooped out 29g and mixed with water until dissolved (and just to note, it did float).  This represented 5% of the total flour weight and the water set to 50% in the preferment calculator with an overall hydration of 65%, salt was 3% and I used French sea salt.  When the starter was dissolved I added the salt and stirred until all gone.  I then added the AT flour slowly, stirring as I went until it was all in, finishing the minimal knead by hand.  I intended it to bulk rise and didn't want to over-knead so I did the least I could to ensure all the flour was incorporated and I had a cohesive mass.  This was then transferred to a glass bowl, lined with lightly oiled plastic wrap.  I gently put the mass in and topped loosely with a lightly oiled plastic sheet, then capped tightly with the lid.  I placed this in the laundry room which fluctuates with outdoor temps if isolated from the house and with outdoor temps at 65 or so, this room would run ~70, perfect for a "room temp" bulk ferment.

I got up around 8am this morning and started the oven at 10am, between then I split the mass, formed balls with as few tuck/folds as I could manage to form a tight outer skin, then placed into individual glass bowls as previously described until the first one was baked off at noon.  The one pictured had another hour of rise.  All the rise was done at room temp and for a total of approximately 14-15 hours.

Hope this helps and as mentioned, a few pics to follow.

[StrayBullet]

oven setup..

[StrayBullet]

launch window...

[Jackie Tran]

Mark, thanks for the detail reply and pics.  I'm sure it will help others wanting to replicate your results.  So it sounds like you bake on the bottom soapstone and then set the pie aside, move the soapstone higher up and broil to finish?   

Also it sounds like 5% starter at room temp of 70F for a window of 14 hours or so is workable.    Also you said you used your starter when it had lots of tiny bubbles on top after deflating?   Can anyone chime in if this is ideal?  I usually use my starters when they are active the first time around on the way up with moderate amounts of medium sized bubbles.  I'm asking b/c I want to learn.

I know you said you felt that the starter played a major role and it could have.  In my experience, a starter is a starter.  Meaning they give different flavors but they all seem to act relatively in a similar fashion.  Just as yeast is yeast to me.  I know they are all different but they all behave relatively the same.   Yeast gives rise and with enough time flavor.  Starters give varying amounts of rise and more flavor than commercial yeast.  Sorry for the over simplification of yeast and I know this may make some folks uncomfortable to read.  I would venture to guess that your results are more related to your kneading methods and fermentation process and time.

As you know, it takes many many variables lining up properly to get an awesome bake in the home setting.   I can tell you the pizza looks pretty d@mn awesome.  Especially if it had a tender crumb as well and not tough or leathery (which it doesn't look like it to me).   Before too much time passes you may want to try to replicate your results without too much time passing.   Once you can get that down, you may want to play around with switching out the source of yeast.  See if you can do the same with ADY and IDY just for fun.  You should be able to if your methods are sound and it will make you a more flexible pizza maker.

Starters are great but they aren't magical by any means.  Yes they add flavor which is good, but you should be able to make an identical looking pizza with a similar crumb using any type of yeast. 

Just my 2c which maybe worth about 1c.   In the mean time, I'm estatic for you and very happy you moved forward with making the starter.   Great job all around.

Cheers,
Chau

[StrayBullet]

Mark, thanks for the detail reply and pics.  I'm sure it will help others wanting to replicate your results.  So it sounds like you bake on the bottom soapstone and then set the pie aside, move the soapstone higher up and broil to finish?   

Happy to do it Chau as people here have done the same, it's the least I can do to give a little back

As for the baking setup, I heat up the stone on the lower rack for an entire hour, then I move the rack/stone to the top rack and hit it with a broiler at 10 minute intervals trying to shove as much heat into the stone as possible.  Once it's on the upper rack, I don't move the stone.  I throw the pie onto the stone with it on the upper rack.  I tightened up the bracket holding the broiler element so I could have a modicum of clearance between the stone and element; still not an easy task given the clearance.

I then set the oven on bake for the first 3 minutes of cooking, then switch the oven to broiler and finish it off the with the boiler element lit up....hope this helps

Also it sounds like 5% starter at room temp of 70F for a window of 14 hours or so is workable.    Also you said you used your starter when it had lots of tiny bubbles on top after deflating?   Can anyone chime in if this is ideal?  I usually use my starters when they are active the first time around on the way up with moderate amounts of medium sized bubbles.  I'm asking b/c I want to learn.

As for the 5% starter, 70^o and 14 hours...the bulk rise was done for about 10-11 hours at 70^o or so.  I then split, balled and set to rest again at room temp, around 77^o by that time.  That was done for another 4-5 hours.  I really don't know what I was looking for during the bulk rise but I assumed it was the same as an individual ball.  I didn't want so much fermentation that it was unusable but enough to tell me the starter was working the way it should.  After I balled up, I went by normal indications using a glass container.

I used the starter when I did because of the Tartine Bread book requiring a "mature starter" to make a young leaven.  I may have made a mistake there but when I scooped out the starter, it was about 12 hours after feeding or so.  The next time I do a leaven for the bread, I'll wait a full 24 hours after feeding.  I'd like to know what's best for the pizza as well

I know you said you felt that the starter played a major role and it could have.  In my experience, a starter is a starter.  Meaning they give different flavors but they all seem to act relatively in a similar fashion.  Just as yeast is yeast to me.  I know they are all different but they all behave relatively the same.   Yeast gives rise and with enough time flavor.  Starters give varying amounts of rise and more flavor than commercial yeast.  Sorry for the over simplification of yeast and I know this may make some folks uncomfortable to read.  I would venture to guess that your results are more related to your kneading methods and fermentation process and time.

I was talking with another member today and came away thinking some similar thoughts.  So much so, that I may use the exact same recipe, replacing the starter with IDY and see what happens; scientific method here we come.  If I can achieve similar results with IDY, then we may have to say it was more technique and fermentation that played the major role in the crumb formation.

As you know, it takes many many variables lining up properly to get an awesome bake in the home setting.   I can tell you the pizza looks pretty d@mn awesome.  Especially if it had a tender crumb as well and not tough or leathery (which it doesn't look like it to me).   Before too much time passes you may want to try to replicate your results without too much time passing.   Once you can get that down, you may want to play around with switching out the source of yeast.  See if you can do the same with ADY and IDY just for fun.  You should be able to if your methods are sound and it will make you a more flexible pizza maker.

Starters are great but they aren't magical by any means.  Yes they add flavor which is good, but you should be able to make an identical looking pizza with a similar crumb using any type of yeast. 

Just my 2c which maybe worth about 1c.   In the mean time, I'm ecstatic for you and very happy you moved forward with making the starter.   Great job all around.

Cheers,
Chau

Thanks again Chau, I really appreciate the input and praise from someone like you who was walked a ton down the road others are just embarking on   I'm coming around to the idea about yeast being yeast.  Comparable levels being equal, I agree it's about taste one imparts compared to another.  I was soooo excited about actually have a live starter, something I was able to create and use, I probably let the exuberance of the moment get me

In the near future, I want to cultivate a starter using just flour and water as directed in the Tartine Bread book and then I have some dried Ischia that Norma sent me (thanks again Norma!!!) that needs activated and tender loving care   It'll be interesting to see what each of them bring to the table.

My hand mixing/kneading skills need a TON of work and I'm sure that along with the fermentation played a big role in the turnout.  Like I mentioned, if I get froggy this weekend, I'll do a dough following the exact same procedure but substituting IDY for the starter....although not sure how I'd figure that out

At any rate, thanks again!!  Here's to the next pies 

Mark

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

My view of natural forms of yeast tends to be like yours (i.e., it is just another leavening agent), as I noted starting with the second paragraph of Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48420/topicseen.html#msg48420. However, because a dough leavened with natural yeast develops a much greater set of fermentation byproducts, with greater complexity, I believe that it is difficult to replicate the results achieved from using natural yeast by substituting IDY or ADY. The closest I was able to come to that result was when I made doughs that were cold fermented for very long periods, typically in excess of about 12-15 days. You can also come reasonably close with a dough that is fermented entirely at room temperature for a long time, for example, around a day. But even in those instances, you won't get the complexity of flavors that you will get using a natural starter/preferment. I also think that a natural starter/preferment gives a better texture to the crust and crumb.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

My view of natural forms of yeast tends to be like yours (i.e., it is just another leavening agent), as I noted starting with the second paragraph of Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48420/topicseen.html#msg48420. However, because a dough leavened with natural yeast develops a much greater set of fermentation byproducts, with greater complexity, I believe that it is difficult to replicate the results achieved from using natural yeast by substituting IDY or ADY. The closest I was able to come to that result was when I made doughs that were cold fermented for very long periods, typically in excess of about 12-15 days. You can also come reasonably close with a dough that is fermented entirely at room temperature for a long time, for example, around a day. But even in those instances, you won't get the complexity of flavors that you will get using a natural starter/preferment. I also think that a natural starter/preferment gives a better texture to the crust and crumb.

Peter

I agree Peter.  A commercially leavened crumb can not match a wild yeast crumb in complexity of flavors.  I know it has been stated before that a starter also gives a better texture.  I'm not quite sold on that yet.  I have been able to get very similar crumb textures using commerical yeast or starter in a 12hour fermented same day dough, but that has just been my experience.   I'm sure for a cold fermented dough there may be a much bigger difference.  For now, without a WFO, I find that a cold fermented dough whether leavened by commercial yeast or starter gives a heavier texture closer to sourdough bread type texture.  Perhaps that type of texture is favored by most members I'm not sure.  I haven't been able to achieve the really aerated and light rim as seen with Mark's crumb using cold fermented doughs (in a home oven setting). 

Peter after reading many of your posts, I am often reminded of what a great asset & teacher you are to this forum.  Thank you so much. 

Chau

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

Thank you for the compliment.

The texture that I have in mind is one where the crumb can be pulled between the fingers and the crumb structure expands and contracts like a rubber band, without separating. The closest I have come to that texture has been with doughs that have been cold fermented for a very long time, as previously mentioned.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

Thank you for the compliment.

The texture that I have in mind is one where the crumb can be pulled between the fingers and the crumb structure expands and contracts like a rubber band, without separating. The closest I have come to that texture has been with doughs that have been cold fermented for a very long time, as previously mentioned.


Peter

Peter do you have a picture of this crumb or texture so I can see what you are referring to?  I'll have to try this test on my crumb next time I bake.

[Pete-zza]

Peter do you have a picture of this crumb or texture so I can see what you are referring to?  I'll have to try this test on my crumb next time I bake.

Chau,

At the time I played around with natural starters/preferments, I did not think much of the type of crumb texture that I described to you since I had experienced similar textural effects when I made naturally leavened sourdough breads before I experimented with naturally leavened pizza doughs. That is perhaps why I did not think to post photos showing the crumb structure in detail. The contrast I drew was between a crumb that was bread-like and one that had some chew to it as a result of the stretchiness and pull of the crumb due to the use of a natural leavening. I discussed this contrast in greater detail at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62715/topicseen.html#msg62715. I also spoke of the differences by indirection when I mentioned how I achieved a non-breadlike crust/crumb texture in the context of a naturally leavened dough for a pizza that I described at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807.

I will try to see if I posted a photo somewhere that shows the type of crumb texture that I have been trying to describe.

Peter

[StrayBullet]

I got play hooky so to speak today, working from the cave

I was able to play around a bit in the kitchen so last night a little experiment began based on suggestions from Jackie Tran.  I kept everything in the recipe the same, 65% hydration with AT flour, 3% salt but replaced the starter with IDY, at around .11% or so...as measured, under 1/2 of 1/4t.

I did a bulk rise as before in 68-70 degree temps for 13 hours.  This morning, I divided and balled, then lest rest for another 4 hours.  The pizza was similar, obvious taste issues associated with the starter aside.  The crumb was very similar in structure but was lighter and was less toothy.  It was less dry inside than the starter dough but not dry, it was still moist, just not as moist. 

Overall, I really liked the results and confirmed the suspicions and conclusions drawn and posted....now I know first hand and knowledge is dangerous 

[StrayBullet]

another,,,

[StrayBullet]

all cut up...

[StrayBullet]

crumb...

[StrayBullet]

nice bottom...

[StrayBullet]

just before the dance...

[sear]

looks good !, very similar to the way im baking my pies too .
what is the stone temp at the 60 minute mark? also when you load the pie after doing 60 min of turning broiler on and off ?

[StrayBullet]

looks good !, very similar to the way im baking my pies too .
what is the stone temp at the 60 minute mark? also when you load the pie after doing 60 min of turning broiler on and off ?

Thanks man!  I think I'm starting to get a handle on a few things

End of 60 minutes on lowest rack - 500^o if I'm lucky!

End of 60 minutes on highest rack - range from 680⁰ to 620^o,

This is exactly at the time of the boiler switching off.  I manually switch back to bake at that time.

Hope this helps, Mark