Author Topic: Pizza Shop Dough  (Read 10544 times)

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cornicione54

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2010, 07:42:43 PM »
Peter, I went back and saw the pictures after I posted.  After I  went through that thread and saw the pictures, your posts before that made sense.  For fun, I'd like to repeat what you guys did in that experiment. 

Is this what AM is doing?  I read somewhere that he said he was making dough without yeast and then there are posts that says he is using a bit of old dough.  Sorry my memory is so foggy.   Good advice,  I'll try to refrain from making further assumptions. :D  I was really surprise to see Marc's (& your) results on the 24 hour yeastless dough.  I would have thought it wasn't possible if I didn't see the pictures.    I also had not heard of anyone making a starter in under 3 days (like myself) so I was pretty sure it wasn't possible to culture yeast in under 3 days.  Guess I was wrong.  ::)

Anyway, I'm glad you posted that thread since I (and I'm sure others) were able to learn from it.

Chau

Getting a rise from a yeastless dough and obtaining a stable starter culture are two very different things. There are a wealth of microorganisms (other than "wild yeast") that can produce (and more likely to produce more significant volumes of) gas, often within 24 to 48 hours of mixing flour + water.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 07:44:51 PM by cornicione54 »


Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2010, 07:55:07 PM »
I'm glad I was able to contribute a tad and make this a least a semi-worthy thread, creating some decent discussion :)

I just got back from Orlando, so as mentioned...LONG days!  I tucked whatever I created away in the fridge last nite and will take out Friday just to see what happens and of course post more pics.

Here's looking towards the weekend  :chef:

Mark

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2010, 11:37:03 PM »

Chau

Chau,  I started to wonder that back in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.40.html on page 3.  I tried it a couple times and both times I came away with a somewhat horrible smelling starter that was predicted by member cornicione54.  I never proceeded to bake the dough made from it.  I am sure that it would have worked,  but I decided the flavor profile would not have been too good,  and possible unpleasant.  The dough just didn't have that "good dough" smell.  That being said,  I did only try one brand of 00 flour.  It was roma.  Part of me still thinks this is possible,  but it seems like such a bad way to do it...  -marc

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2010, 11:38:34 PM »
Chau,  I screwed up that  quote.  It was meant to contain         "Is this what AM is doing?"

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2010, 03:20:31 PM »
OK, here we go  :chef:

After the coalescence of several motivational factors including being sent some dried Ischia starter, the Other Foods discussion of the new Tartine Book, my reduced travel schedule and me having this experiment sitting in the back of my fridge begging to be used, I've finally stepped it up and gotten around to reviving this thing :D

Wanting to jump start baking the basic bread from Tartine but needing a mature culture/starter to create a natural leaven I decided to revive the pizza shop dough I'd cultured then put to sleep in the fridge.  I removed it, split into individual 100g portions and fed each with 100g water and 100g flour.  It was alive and bubbly within 4 hours.  I let it go overnite, then fed again in the morning.  Last night I used the calculator to create a 5% flour weight preferment at 65% overall hydration.  I scooped out 29g of the starter, added that to my water, dissolved the salt then mixed in the flour.

I mixed up a single mass and covered to let rise at room temp overnite.  I placed it a cooler section of the house, around 70o or so.  This morning, I split up the mass and formed 2 balls then let them rise for another few hours.  The first was a little learning curve, but I think I got what I was after with this one :D

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2010, 03:21:16 PM »
:)

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2010, 03:21:55 PM »
:)

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2010, 03:23:57 PM »
last one...

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2010, 03:28:21 PM »
SB, congrats.  That is a beautiful looking pie with an excellent crumb.  Good work.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 03:32:44 PM by Jackie Tran »


Online norma427

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2010, 04:04:57 PM »
StrayBullet,

Congrats!  ;D  Your pizza sure does look tasty.  Glad to hear you had such good results with your pizza shop dough. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2010, 04:11:25 PM »
Thanks y'all!!!  I was really pleased with the results!

It needs to be stretched out a little more, it was a little thick to my liking but the crust was crisp but chewy inside, and obvious air pockets that I dig :)

I taste was not sour but the crust definitely had character!  I don't know if a 3-4 day cold ferment with IDY is any better/worse, but both stand out as ingredients rather than a platform of toppings.

I baked this off in 5 minutes, with the last 90 seconds moving constantly under the engaged broiler.  Definitely a keeper for me and I've learned a ton about starters, etc in the process!

IN a few hours I bake off my first loaves from Tartine  :chef:

Mark

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2010, 04:31:18 PM »
Good luck with the bake off.  Anxious to see your results.  I would hang onto this recipe and method.  It doesn't get much better in my book. 

And Mark, here's the $100k question.  Do you feel that this starter made all the difference to your lastest pie? 
I see a huge improvement between this pie and the ones you posted before this.  Surely there has been some other changes to your baking, mixing, and/or fermentation protocol.   :P

And for the benefit of myself and others would you list a bit more detail about the fermentation and bake? ;D
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 06:13:14 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2010, 07:37:09 PM »
Good luck with the bake off.  Anxious to see your results.  I would hang onto this recipe and method.  It doesn't get much better in my book. 


Thanks!!!  And for sure, this is now my go to recipe!!!  I really liked my standard Tuesday mix, Friday/Saturday bake but this method/recipe has so much more texture, and that's something I really wanted all along :)

And Mark, here's the $100k question.  Do you feel that this starter made all the difference to your latest pie? 
I see a huge improvement between this pie and the ones you posted before this.  Surely there has been some other changes to your baking, mixing, and/or fermentation protocol.   :P

And for the benefit of myself and others would you list a bit more detail about the fermentation and bake? ;D

As for the differences, it's hard to pinpoint as I changed so many things at once.  That said, I personally feel the starter had a huge impact as did the ferment method.  My baking method for the most part was the same as was hydration for the most part.  And again, thanks  :D

I heated the 1.25" soapstone on the bottom rack for 60 minutes with the oven set to 550o, pics to follow :)

At the 60 minute mark, I moved the stone to the top rack and every 10 minutes engaged the broiler, switching back to bake as soon as the broiler turned off.  I repeat this for 60 minutes.  Sometimes I engage the broiler for the first 2 minutes of cooking and sometimes I finish with the broiler.  I think after today, the best route may be to boiler for the first full minute, then rotate the set pie under bake for the next 3, finish under boiler as needed/desired.  A lot of work, but for an 11 year-old oven it'll take a little caressing to squeeze out its' best.  For this pie, I baked for 3 minutes, then finished under the broiler for 90 seconds.  I constantly moved the pie for the last 90 seconds trying to achieve an even browning.

As for fermentation, etc.  Everything here was different but here goes :)  I had my starter fed early in the morning, by this time it was 10 pm at night and the expansion had retreated, many small bubbles were on the top and giving off a sweet floral aroma.  I scooped out 29g and mixed with water until dissolved (and just to note, it did float).  This represented 5% of the total flour weight and the water set to 50% in the preferment calculator with an overall hydration of 65%, salt was 3% and I used French sea salt.  When the starter was dissolved I added the salt and stirred until all gone.  I then added the AT flour slowly, stirring as I went until it was all in, finishing the minimal knead by hand.  I intended it to bulk rise and didn't want to over-knead so I did the least I could to ensure all the flour was incorporated and I had a cohesive mass.  This was then transferred to a glass bowl, lined with lightly oiled plastic wrap.  I gently put the mass in and topped loosely with a lightly oiled plastic sheet, then capped tightly with the lid.  I placed this in the laundry room which fluctuates with outdoor temps if isolated from the house and with outdoor temps at 65 or so, this room would run ~70, perfect for a "room temp" bulk ferment.

I got up around 8am this morning and started the oven at 10am, between then I split the mass, formed balls with as few tuck/folds as I could manage to form a tight outer skin, then placed into individual glass bowls as previously described until the first one was baked off at noon.  The one pictured had another hour of rise.  All the rise was done at room temp and for a total of approximately 14-15 hours.

Hope this helps and as mentioned, a few pics to follow.

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2010, 07:49:34 PM »
oven setup..

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2010, 07:50:18 PM »
launch window... :o :chef:

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2010, 10:16:07 PM »
Mark, thanks for the detail reply and pics.  I'm sure it will help others wanting to replicate your results.  So it sounds like you bake on the bottom soapstone and then set the pie aside, move the soapstone higher up and broil to finish?   

Also it sounds like 5% starter at room temp of 70F for a window of 14 hours or so is workable.    Also you said you used your starter when it had lots of tiny bubbles on top after deflating?   Can anyone chime in if this is ideal?  I usually use my starters when they are active the first time around on the way up with moderate amounts of medium sized bubbles.  I'm asking b/c I want to learn.

I know you said you felt that the starter played a major role and it could have.  In my experience, a starter is a starter.  Meaning they give different flavors but they all seem to act relatively in a similar fashion.  Just as yeast is yeast to me.  I know they are all different but they all behave relatively the same.   Yeast gives rise and with enough time flavor.  Starters give varying amounts of rise and more flavor than commercial yeast.  Sorry for the over simplification of yeast and I know this may make some folks uncomfortable to read.  I would venture to guess that your results are more related to your kneading methods and fermentation process and time.

As you know, it takes many many variables lining up properly to get an awesome bake in the home setting.   I can tell you the pizza looks pretty d@mn awesome.  Especially if it had a tender crumb as well and not tough or leathery (which it doesn't look like it to me).   Before too much time passes you may want to try to replicate your results without too much time passing.   Once you can get that down, you may want to play around with switching out the source of yeast.  See if you can do the same with ADY and IDY just for fun.  You should be able to if your methods are sound and it will make you a more flexible pizza maker.

Starters are great but they aren't magical by any means.  Yes they add flavor which is good, but you should be able to make an identical looking pizza with a similar crumb using any type of yeast. 

Just my 2c which maybe worth about 1c.   In the mean time, I'm estatic for you and very happy you moved forward with making the starter.   Great job all around.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 10:36:53 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2010, 05:44:43 PM »
Mark, thanks for the detail reply and pics.  I'm sure it will help others wanting to replicate your results.  So it sounds like you bake on the bottom soapstone and then set the pie aside, move the soapstone higher up and broil to finish?   

Happy to do it Chau as people here have done the same, it's the least I can do to give a little back :)

As for the baking setup, I heat up the stone on the lower rack for an entire hour, then I move the rack/stone to the top rack and hit it with a broiler at 10 minute intervals trying to shove as much heat into the stone as possible.  Once it's on the upper rack, I don't move the stone.  I throw the pie onto the stone with it on the upper rack.  I tightened up the bracket holding the broiler element so I could have a modicum of clearance between the stone and element; still not an easy task given the clearance.

I then set the oven on bake for the first 3 minutes of cooking, then switch the oven to broiler and finish it off the with the boiler element lit up....hope this helps :)

Also it sounds like 5% starter at room temp of 70F for a window of 14 hours or so is workable.    Also you said you used your starter when it had lots of tiny bubbles on top after deflating?   Can anyone chime in if this is ideal?  I usually use my starters when they are active the first time around on the way up with moderate amounts of medium sized bubbles.  I'm asking b/c I want to learn.

As for the 5% starter, 70o and 14 hours...the bulk rise was done for about 10-11 hours at 70o or so.  I then split, balled and set to rest again at room temp, around 77o by that time.  That was done for another 4-5 hours.  I really don't know what I was looking for during the bulk rise but I assumed it was the same as an individual ball.  I didn't want so much fermentation that it was unusable but enough to tell me the starter was working the way it should.  After I balled up, I went by normal indications using a glass container.

I used the starter when I did because of the Tartine Bread book requiring a "mature starter" to make a young leaven.  I may have made a mistake there but when I scooped out the starter, it was about 12 hours after feeding or so.  The next time I do a leaven for the bread, I'll wait a full 24 hours after feeding.  I'd like to know what's best for the pizza as well :)

I know you said you felt that the starter played a major role and it could have.  In my experience, a starter is a starter.  Meaning they give different flavors but they all seem to act relatively in a similar fashion.  Just as yeast is yeast to me.  I know they are all different but they all behave relatively the same.   Yeast gives rise and with enough time flavor.  Starters give varying amounts of rise and more flavor than commercial yeast.  Sorry for the over simplification of yeast and I know this may make some folks uncomfortable to read.  I would venture to guess that your results are more related to your kneading methods and fermentation process and time.

I was talking with another member today and came away thinking some similar thoughts.  So much so, that I may use the exact same recipe, replacing the starter with IDY and see what happens; scientific method here we come.  If I can achieve similar results with IDY, then we may have to say it was more technique and fermentation that played the major role in the crumb formation.

As you know, it takes many many variables lining up properly to get an awesome bake in the home setting.   I can tell you the pizza looks pretty d@mn awesome.  Especially if it had a tender crumb as well and not tough or leathery (which it doesn't look like it to me).   Before too much time passes you may want to try to replicate your results without too much time passing.   Once you can get that down, you may want to play around with switching out the source of yeast.  See if you can do the same with ADY and IDY just for fun.  You should be able to if your methods are sound and it will make you a more flexible pizza maker.

Starters are great but they aren't magical by any means.  Yes they add flavor which is good, but you should be able to make an identical looking pizza with a similar crumb using any type of yeast. 

Just my 2c which maybe worth about 1c.   In the mean time, I'm ecstatic for you and very happy you moved forward with making the starter.   Great job all around.

Cheers,
Chau

Thanks again Chau, I really appreciate the input and praise from someone like you who was walked a ton down the road others are just embarking on :)  I'm coming around to the idea about yeast being yeast.  Comparable levels being equal, I agree it's about taste one imparts compared to another.  I was soooo excited about actually have a live starter, something I was able to create and use, I probably let the exuberance of the moment get me :D

In the near future, I want to cultivate a starter using just flour and water as directed in the Tartine Bread book and then I have some dried Ischia that Norma sent me (thanks again Norma!!!) that needs activated and tender loving care :)  It'll be interesting to see what each of them bring to the table.

My hand mixing/kneading skills need a TON of work and I'm sure that along with the fermentation played a big role in the turnout.  Like I mentioned, if I get froggy this weekend, I'll do a dough following the exact same procedure but substituting IDY for the starter....although not sure how I'd figure that out ???

At any rate, thanks again!!  Here's to the next pies  :chef:

Mark


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2010, 08:02:52 PM »
Chau,

My view of natural forms of yeast tends to be like yours (i.e., it is just another leavening agent), as I noted starting with the second paragraph of Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48420/topicseen.html#msg48420. However, because a dough leavened with natural yeast develops a much greater set of fermentation byproducts, with greater complexity, I believe that it is difficult to replicate the results achieved from using natural yeast by substituting IDY or ADY. The closest I was able to come to that result was when I made doughs that were cold fermented for very long periods, typically in excess of about 12-15 days. You can also come reasonably close with a dough that is fermented entirely at room temperature for a long time, for example, around a day. But even in those instances, you won't get the complexity of flavors that you will get using a natural starter/preferment. I also think that a natural starter/preferment gives a better texture to the crust and crumb.

Peter

Online Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2010, 08:20:29 PM »
Chau,

My view of natural forms of yeast tends to be like yours (i.e., it is just another leavening agent), as I noted starting with the second paragraph of Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg48420/topicseen.html#msg48420. However, because a dough leavened with natural yeast develops a much greater set of fermentation byproducts, with greater complexity, I believe that it is difficult to replicate the results achieved from using natural yeast by substituting IDY or ADY. The closest I was able to come to that result was when I made doughs that were cold fermented for very long periods, typically in excess of about 12-15 days. You can also come reasonably close with a dough that is fermented entirely at room temperature for a long time, for example, around a day. But even in those instances, you won't get the complexity of flavors that you will get using a natural starter/preferment. I also think that a natural starter/preferment gives a better texture to the crust and crumb.

Peter

I agree Peter.  A commercially leavened crumb can not match a wild yeast crumb in complexity of flavors.  I know it has been stated before that a starter also gives a better texture.  I'm not quite sold on that yet.  I have been able to get very similar crumb textures using commerical yeast or starter in a 12hour fermented same day dough, but that has just been my experience.   I'm sure for a cold fermented dough there may be a much bigger difference.  For now, without a WFO, I find that a cold fermented dough whether leavened by commercial yeast or starter gives a heavier texture closer to sourdough bread type texture.  Perhaps that type of texture is favored by most members I'm not sure.  I haven't been able to achieve the really aerated and light rim as seen with Mark's crumb using cold fermented doughs (in a home oven setting). 

Peter after reading many of your posts, I am often reminded of what a great asset & teacher you are to this forum.  Thank you so much. 

Chau
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 08:22:02 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2010, 08:40:51 PM »
Chau,

Thank you for the compliment.

The texture that I have in mind is one where the crumb can be pulled between the fingers and the crumb structure expands and contracts like a rubber band, without separating. The closest I have come to that texture has been with doughs that have been cold fermented for a very long time, as previously mentioned.

Peter

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2010, 08:53:30 PM »
Chau,

Thank you for the compliment.

The texture that I have in mind is one where the crumb can be pulled between the fingers and the crumb structure expands and contracts like a rubber band, without separating. The closest I have come to that texture has been with doughs that have been cold fermented for a very long time, as previously mentioned.


Peter

Peter do you have a picture of this crumb or texture so I can see what you are referring to?  I'll have to try this test on my crumb next time I bake.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2010, 09:32:00 PM »
Peter do you have a picture of this crumb or texture so I can see what you are referring to?  I'll have to try this test on my crumb next time I bake.

Chau,

At the time I played around with natural starters/preferments, I did not think much of the type of crumb texture that I described to you since I had experienced similar textural effects when I made naturally leavened sourdough breads before I experimented with naturally leavened pizza doughs. That is perhaps why I did not think to post photos showing the crumb structure in detail. The contrast I drew was between a crumb that was bread-like and one that had some chew to it as a result of the stretchiness and pull of the crumb due to the use of a natural leavening. I discussed this contrast in greater detail at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62715/topicseen.html#msg62715. I also spoke of the differences by indirection when I mentioned how I achieved a non-breadlike crust/crumb texture in the context of a naturally leavened dough for a pizza that I described at Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.msg25807.html#msg25807.

I will try to see if I posted a photo somewhere that shows the type of crumb texture that I have been trying to describe.

Peter

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2010, 01:01:37 PM »
I got play hooky so to speak today, working from the cave :D

I was able to play around a bit in the kitchen so last night a little experiment began based on suggestions from Jackie Tran.  I kept everything in the recipe the same, 65% hydration with AT flour, 3% salt but replaced the starter with IDY, at around .11% or so...as measured, under 1/2 of 1/4t.

I did a bulk rise as before in 68-70 degree temps for 13 hours.  This morning, I divided and balled, then lest rest for another 4 hours.  The pizza was similar, obvious taste issues associated with the starter aside.  The crumb was very similar in structure but was lighter and was less toothy.  It was less dry inside than the starter dough but not dry, it was still moist, just not as moist. 

Overall, I really liked the results and confirmed the suspicions and conclusions drawn and posted....now I know first hand and knowledge is dangerous  :chef:

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2010, 01:02:12 PM »
another,,,

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Pizza Shop Dough
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2010, 01:02:37 PM »
all cut up...