Pizza Shop Dough

[StrayBullet]

Thanks again Don.  Time willing, I may be able to do a little test with just flour and water to see what happens

Yes, at least that's how I do it.  I have started 3 starters from scratch.  2 from flour and water, and one from raisens and all 3 have taken 3-4 days for initial activity (less than what you are seeing only after 12 hours) and 6 days to full activity.  I'm pretty certain the activity you are seeing isn't due to any yeast that's in the flour.

Well, whatever I got, I definitely got

I made the discard/feed this afternoon sometime after 5p and I just checked the mix and it's risen over 2 inches already.  That's probably a little outside of the stated 2 hours but it's definitely got action going.

I don't want to lose whatever I captured due to my travel schedule over the next few days, so I think I'll discard/feed again tonite and tuck it away in the fridge until I can figure out how exactly to incorporate it into a dough.

When I do pull it out of cold-sleep, do I simply feed it until it's active again, then it's ready for use?

Mark

[Pete-zza]

I'm pretty certain the activity you are seeing isn't due to any yeast that's in the flour.

Chau,

Playing the role of the devil's advocate, how do you come to that conclusion? Both Marc (widespreadpizza) and I made pizza doughs without adding any yeast, commercial or natural, and got usable doughs and pretty decent pizzas. Marc was making his dough in New Hampshire, and I was making my dough almost in parallel in Texas. Marc tried to keep his dough from airborne wild yeast, but neither of us attempted to do anything about the wild yeast in our respective flours. We detailed our results starting at about Reply 77 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78742.html#msg78742. Maybe if Marc and I had supplemented our doughs with a piece of Pete Taylor's dough with his local wild yeast we might have had gotten to the endpoint even faster. We just don't know. One would perhaps have to have specialized equipment to be able to say what strains of wild yeast are actually present in a dough under such circumstances.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Well, if you fed it right before putting it to sleep.  Once it comes out of the fridge, it should become active within a couple of hours without feeding.  I personally feed my starters and let them get semi active and then put to sleep.  When they come out of the fridge, I just let them get active again and use.  I feed after using but that's just me.  I don't know and don't subscribe to the official feeding regimen of starters if there is one.  I have started weighing the amount of flour and water added though.  

so maybe someone else like Matthew can help you with this.  I wonder what Starter PFTaylor is using, perhaps Ischia?  Again, I'm glad it worked out for ya.

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

Playing the role of the devil's advocate, how do you come to that conclusion? Both Marc (widespreadpizza) and I made pizza doughs without adding any yeast, commercial or natural, and got usable doughs and pretty decent pizzas. Marc was making his dough in New Hampshire, and I was making my dough almost in parallel in Texas. Marc tried to keep his dough from airborne wild yeast, but neither of us attempted to do anything about the wild yeast in our respective flours. We detailed our results starting at about Reply 77 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78742.html#msg78742. Maybe if Marc and I had supplemented our doughs with a piece of Pete Taylor's dough with his local wild yeast we might have had gotten to the endpoint even faster. We just don't know. One would perhaps have to have specialized equipment to be able to say what strains of wild yeast are actually present in a dough under such circumstances.

Peter

Peter, I wasn't aware that you and Marc made useable doughs without the addition of yeast.  I do recall that you have mentioned that Norma (and perhaps yourself) have gotten oven spring without using yeast.  How do you know there is any yeast in the dough both you and marc made?  (I will read that thread shortly - just wanted to give you an explanation right away).

I only came to that conclusion after making 3 starters from scratch and saw no yeast activity (no bubbles, no gas production) until day 3.  So I concluded that the activity Mark is seeing is soley due to the yeast that is active in the dough and not any dormant yeast from the additional flour or from the air.   Again I haven't been able to culture yeast from the air or flour in less than 3 days.  Is this an unfair conclusion for me to make?

[StrayBullet]

Well, if you fed it right before putting it to sleep.  Once it comes out of the fridge, it should become active within a couple of hours without feeding.  I personally feed my starters and let them get semi active and then put to sleep.

Hmmmm, sounds solid to me and you definitely have MUCH more experience with this than I....can't do much harm putting it to sleep now I guess.  What I'm worried about is getting it off the feeding schedule and losing it all together.  And THANK YOU!  Without your help and the help of others, I wouldn't have even gotten this far

I wonder what Starter PFTaylor is using, perhaps Ischia?  

I suppose this can't be that big of a secret because he states as much on his menu...he told me point blank that it's not Ischia or Camoldi (?sp) but a wild yeast he captured here off the coast of FL.  He said it's much more stable that either of the other two, which I assumed suits his commercial setting compared to a home baker.

Mark

[Jackie Tran]

Ok i just briefly looked at the thread, and I have to say that I am impressed by the results.  If you guys can get that kind of dough expansion in 24 hours, then I hereby officially retract my statements that it is likely not airborne/flour yeast in SB's starter.  Apparently it could be. 

I'll have to try the 24 hour pizza dough without yeast when I get back.  I guess there isn't a good way of know for sure what is responsible in SB's starter. 

Peter, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on why/how you guys can get pizza dough to rise from yeast but I'm not able to start a wild yeast starter in less than 3-4 days? 

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

I think you may have been thinking of Norma's experiment with the Bittman dough formulation discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10703.msg95206.html#msg95206. In that case, there indeed was no yeast in the dough. However, the dough did not rise before baking. When the dressed skin was baked, the moisture in the dough was converted to steam, which was responsible for the oven spring. In Marc's and my case, there was clearly dough expansion before using the dough to make pizzas.

I still don't fully comprehend the biochemistry that was behind what Marc and I did. That is why I try not to assume the results. Our results were certainly not accidental since we both achieved the same results essentially contemporaneously even though we were about 1600 miles apart as the crow flies. In my case, I thought at the time that it was a combination of wild yeast, either airborne wild yeast and/or wild yeast in the flour I used, and possibly the elevated room temperature that was conducive to the fermentation process. However, I later repeated my experiment in the winter when the weather had turned cold (at least for Texas in February). As I noted at Reply 124 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg89301.html#msg89301, I got similar results although, not surprisingly, it took longer for the dough to expand. That experiment essentially removed room temperature as a variable. All that was left was flour, water, salt and wild yeast as the participants in the exercise.

Peter
 

[dms]

I don't know how effective using a dough sample for "old dough" purposes would be, at least over the longer term. According to Prof. Raymond Calvel, the old dough method "cannot be done indefinitely, or even over several generations, without producing undesirable flavors."

Peter

There are commercial operations that do just that.  What you can get away with is very highly dependent on the local micro fauna.  If the bacteria you've got in your environment that tolerate your yeast are not excessively nasty, then you can use an old dough until different bacteria take over, which may be never.  If your local bacteria are nasty, then you can't.  Even then, you can recover the yeast strain from the ruined dough, in ways that don't propagate the bacteria.  This was commonly done, even in france, until the 18th or 19th centuries. 
It's a whole lot easier to keep a yeasted dough going than to start a new one, unless you've got a source of yeast.  Commercial yeast is one way to go, but various byproducts from brewing beer and wine were also used.   

[Matthew]

When refrigerated, motherdough should be wrapped up tightly in a linen or cotton cloth & tied together with twine to protect it from the elements.

[Jackie Tran]

Peter, I went back and saw the pictures after I posted.  After I  went through that thread and saw the pictures, your posts before that made sense.  For fun, I'd like to repeat what you guys did in that experiment. 

Is this what AM is doing?  I read somewhere that he said he was making dough without yeast and then there are posts that says he is using a bit of old dough.  Sorry my memory is so foggy.   Good advice,  I'll try to refrain from making further assumptions.   I was really surprise to see Marc's (& your) results on the 24 hour yeastless dough.  I would have thought it wasn't possible if I didn't see the pictures.    I also had not heard of anyone making a starter in under 3 days (like myself) so I was pretty sure it wasn't possible to culture yeast in under 3 days.  Guess I was wrong. 

Anyway, I'm glad you posted that thread since I (and I'm sure others) were able to learn from it.

Chau

[cornicione54]

Peter, I went back and saw the pictures after I posted.  After I  went through that thread and saw the pictures, your posts before that made sense.  For fun, I'd like to repeat what you guys did in that experiment. 

Is this what AM is doing?  I read somewhere that he said he was making dough without yeast and then there are posts that says he is using a bit of old dough.  Sorry my memory is so foggy.   Good advice,  I'll try to refrain from making further assumptions.   I was really surprise to see Marc's (& your) results on the 24 hour yeastless dough.  I would have thought it wasn't possible if I didn't see the pictures.    I also had not heard of anyone making a starter in under 3 days (like myself) so I was pretty sure it wasn't possible to culture yeast in under 3 days.  Guess I was wrong. 

Anyway, I'm glad you posted that thread since I (and I'm sure others) were able to learn from it.

Chau

Getting a rise from a yeastless dough and obtaining a stable starter culture are two very different things. There are a wealth of microorganisms (other than "wild yeast") that can produce (and more likely to produce more significant volumes of) gas, often within 24 to 48 hours of mixing flour + water.

[StrayBullet]

I'm glad I was able to contribute a tad and make this a least a semi-worthy thread, creating some decent discussion

I just got back from Orlando, so as mentioned...LONG days!  I tucked whatever I created away in the fridge last nite and will take out Friday just to see what happens and of course post more pics.

Here's looking towards the weekend 

Mark

[widespreadpizza]

Chau

Chau,  I started to wonder that back in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.40.html on page 3.  I tried it a couple times and both times I came away with a somewhat horrible smelling starter that was predicted by member cornicione54.  I never proceeded to bake the dough made from it.  I am sure that it would have worked,  but I decided the flavor profile would not have been too good,  and possible unpleasant.  The dough just didn't have that "good dough" smell.  That being said,  I did only try one brand of 00 flour.  It was roma.  Part of me still thinks this is possible,  but it seems like such a bad way to do it...  -marc

[widespreadpizza]

Chau,  I screwed up that  quote.  It was meant to contain         "Is this what AM is doing?"

[StrayBullet]

OK, here we go 

After the coalescence of several motivational factors including being sent some dried Ischia starter, the Other Foods discussion of the new Tartine Book, my reduced travel schedule and me having this experiment sitting in the back of my fridge begging to be used, I've finally stepped it up and gotten around to reviving this thing

Wanting to jump start baking the basic bread from Tartine but needing a mature culture/starter to create a natural leaven I decided to revive the pizza shop dough I'd cultured then put to sleep in the fridge.  I removed it, split into individual 100g portions and fed each with 100g water and 100g flour.  It was alive and bubbly within 4 hours.  I let it go overnite, then fed again in the morning.  Last night I used the calculator to create a 5% flour weight preferment at 65% overall hydration.  I scooped out 29g of the starter, added that to my water, dissolved the salt then mixed in the flour.

I mixed up a single mass and covered to let rise at room temp overnite.  I placed it a cooler section of the house, around 70^o or so.  This morning, I split up the mass and formed 2 balls then let them rise for another few hours.  The first was a little learning curve, but I think I got what I was after with this one

[StrayBullet]

[StrayBullet]

[StrayBullet]

last one...

[Jackie Tran]

SB, congrats.  That is a beautiful looking pie with an excellent crumb.  Good work.

Chau

[norma427]

StrayBullet,

Congrats!    Your pizza sure does look tasty.  Glad to hear you had such good results with your pizza shop dough. 

Norma