My latest starter attempt using milk

[buceriasdon]

I am on day ten of a starter using room temp milk and flour. According to the directions it goes in the fridge today, which in the past has proven to be the acid test of whether it stays active or not. My experience so far has been less than successful. This is the most vigorous starter so far but I wonder if I should feed it once more.

[Jackie Tran]

Very cool Don.  I don't know anything about starters made with milk.  Is it done for flavor?  Also can you further explain what the acid test is and why its done?

From my experience with a water/flour starter, that is an active starter and you shouldn't have any issues with storing or maintaining it.  I wonder if it's different for a milk starter.

[buceriasdon]

Chau, My poor choice of words using the term acid test. Should have worded it differently. Sorry. I have followed the directions to the letter, but I did with other homemade starters and all have not come back to life after being placed in the frig. I just don't think the past ones were very strong. This rose last night over an inch.
Don

Very cool Don.  I don't know anything about starters made with milk.  Is it done for flavor?  Also can you further explain what the acid test is and why its done?

From my experience with a water/flour starter, that is an active starter and you shouldn't have any issues with storing or maintaining it.  I wonder if it's different for a milk starter.

[Pete-zza]

I don't know anything about starters made with milk.  Is it done for flavor?

Chau,

With technical assistance from me, Norma did some experimentation making a version of the Lehmann NY style pizza dough using a milk-based starter, as was discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg104846.html#msg104846. However, no attempt was made to create a sustainable starter that could be regularly fed and maintained, much as one would do with a wild yeast culture. In Norma's case, the milk-based starter/preferment would have to be made on a daily or other short-term basis.

I am not sure how Don's milk-based starter will turn out over a much longer time period. The wild yeast in his starter will need simple sugars. There is lactose sugar in milk, which is a simple sugar, but it is not a form of sugar that yeast can use as food. Since there is no added sugar in the starter mix in Don's case, as was the case with Norma's milk-based starter, the only sugar to feed the wild yeast would have to come from the breakdown of damaged starch by the action of amylase enzymes in the flour. At some point, unless regularly fed with more flour, the wild yeast in the starter culture could run out of food. I will be very interested to see how Don does with his particular milk-based starter.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

thanks guys.  Would there be any concern about the milk going sour in a sustainable milk based starter?

Don, I wonder why you had trouble with your past efforts?  From your posts, it sounds like flour is very expensive where you are at.  I normally only feed my starters with 2 Tbs of flour and an = weight in water. 

Chau

[buceriasdon]

This is the full 12 day process detailed here. It does use sugar in the recipe and yeast in the first set. It indicates that sugar is added for each feeding. I realized I had forgotten to post the link. Mea culpa. oops. Not having a great week.
Don
 http://www.jansdough.com/Sourdough_Bread/StarterRecipe.html

Chau,

With technical assistance from me, Norma did some experimentation making a version of the Lehmann NY style pizza dough using a milk-based starter, as was discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11475.msg104846.html#msg104846. However, no attempt was made to create a sustainable starter that could be regularly fed and maintained, much as one would do with a wild yeast culture. In Norma's case, the milk-based starter/preferment would have to be made on a daily or other short-term basis.

I am not sure how Don's milk-based starter will turn out over a much longer time period. The wild yeast in his starter will need simple sugars. There is lactose sugar in milk, which is a simple sugar, but it is not a form of sugar that yeast can use as food. Since there is no added sugar in the starter mix in Don's case, as was the case with Norma's milk-based starter, the only sugar to feed the wild yeast would have to come from the breakdown of damaged starch by the action of amylase enzymes in the flour. At some point, unless regularly fed with more flour, the wild yeast in the starter culture could run out of food. I will be very interested to see how Don does with his particular milk-based starter.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Don,

Thanks for posting the link. However, I am not sure why the dry yeast is used. If it is IDY, 1/8 teaspoon for a half cup of flour comes to around 0.60%. That is a lot of yeast. The hydration itself, based on the amount of water in the milk (whole milk is about 88% water), comes to around 176%. The yeast will be quite active in such a liquidy mixture, and I would think that there would be a lot of bubbling activity, but I would think that it would use up most of the simple sugars (the natural sugars extracted from the flour and those derived from converting the sugar added to the mixture to forms usable by the yeast) and deny the wild yeast a better share of the simple sugars. In due course it is possible that as the mixture takes on a more acid composition the commercial yeast will die off and the wild yeast will take over. Maybe that is why it takes 12 days to get the starter in workable condition.

Maybe some other member who has a better understanding of these matters than I can explain the reason for the commercial yeast.

Peter

[buceriasdon]

Chau, It does taste quite sour,even with the amount of sugar added. I have dismissed using yeast in any way in a starter but I'm willing to give anything a go at this point. I've done the pineapple,the raisin, the flour and water and this so far shows the best activity so far. I have decided to divide what I have today and feed both, keep one out and refrigerate the other, which in the past has been the kiss of death. In two days take the one out and see if I can get it going again while feeding the the room temp one. Chau, thank you very much for your kind offer. I will keep it in mind.
Regards, Don

thanks guys.  Would there be any concern about the milk going sour in a sustainable milk based starter?

Don, I wonder why you had trouble with your past efforts?  From your posts, it sounds like flour is very expensive where you are at.  I normally only feed my starters with 2 Tbs of flour and an = weight in water. 

Chau