Author Topic: cusinart neapolitan style  (Read 3385 times)

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Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 04:34:53 PM »
 in reading his book, he feel that the dough is minimally aerated because of the short mix. also, the small covered bowl allows less air into the dough. this makes a bread with more color ,taste , and keeping qualities.his belief.
 chau, you are right,but if you want your readers to get good results then a basic method is needed. when you hit your perfect dough you will be glad you documented your method :-D
 


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2011, 06:26:02 PM »
Chau,

I have not read or seen the Van Over book either but I agree with you that it is a good idea if you are selling books to have workable dough formulations and specific instructions that even amateurs can follow. I view the Cuisinart Neapolitan dough formulation and instructions that Bill provided at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6322.msg54238.html#msg54238 as serving the same purpose. In Bill's case, I do not believe that he specified water temperature although he did mention in a later post about measuring dough temperatures.

The above said, however, I understand what you are saying about how the temperature of a dough will approach room temperature during rest periods. What has always surprised me, and shocked me the first time I experienced it, was how fast the temperature of the dough approaches room temperature during a rest period (warming up in the summer and cooling down in the winter). I have used ice cubes in lieu of water (until the ice cubes melted) and frozen flour in lieu of room temperature flour and ice cold water just shy of freezing and, even working fairly quickly, the dough temperature quickly approached room temperature. If you read the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332, you will note that I experimented with different water temperatures and concluded that water temperature was not as important as I would have imagined for a dough to be fermented at room temperature. I believe that that was the case because the dough temperature fairly quickly approaches room temperature irrespective of the water temperature. In the example I gave in that post I ended up using cold water right out of the refrigerator but that was matched with an amount of yeast to produce a dough that was usable after about 20-24 hours. I did not want the dough to go beyond that window. Also, my room temperature was over 80 degrees F.

I am personally very attentive to temperatures in general. However, I try to put temperature into context. For example, if I want to make a dough that is to last for an exceptionally long time (e.g. a couple of weeks under cold fermentation), I will use ice cold water. If I want to make a home version of a Lamonica's frozen clone dough, again, I will try to use the coldest water possible. If I want to make an emergency dough to be usable in a few hours, I will use very warm water (and a lot more yeast). I also take into account the type of mixer used to make the dough when arriving at the desired finished dough temperature. I have been doing this sort of thing for so long that it has become second nature to me. But for doughs that are to be subjected to rest periods at room temperature, including a Neapolitan style dough, I have not found water temperature to be as critical as I would have thought.

BTW, at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14376.msg145828.html#msg145828, Tom Lehmann uses the number 145 for water temperature calculation purposes.

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2011, 07:24:31 PM »
I do not believe that he specified water temperature although he did mention in a later post about measuring dough temperatures.

Summarizing Cooks Illustrated Nov/Dec 1998 on whether Van Over's temperature directions matter:

Batch 1 - Following book's directions exactly (water + dough temp = 130F, final temp = 75F): "Best homemade baguettes we have ever had."
Batch 2 - Temperatures not measured: "Same as #1"
Batch 3 - Using hot water (water + dough temp = 180F, final temp = 98F): "We liked it more, rose more and lighter"

After reading this, I never bothered to measure temps, but IIRC, in the subsequent post to which Peter refers regarding pizza dough, the final temp of the dough was under 80F.

But I have abandoned this method in favor of the Tartine one. Van Over was so last century.  :D  

« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 07:27:10 PM by Bill/SFNM »

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2011, 09:11:57 PM »
@Tran Man, Van Over made it sound like a lot of R&D went into his book. He was supposedly working with Cuisanart to find the best methods to produce good bread from using a food processor. I've used his mothod and as stated found it did a great job, but the hassle of gettiing the machine out and then cleaning it up and putting it away kinda takes the luster out of it. I'm sure the temps aren't critical, just more or less keeping with standard guidelines that most of us already use. He probably didn't want people to make the mistake of using the famiilar "warm water" advice so often given in that day for mixing yeast breads. (The book dates back to the 80's if I remember right).Pizza and breadmaking have come a long way since the 80's.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2011, 09:19:56 PM »

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 09:22:50 PM »
And, I'm wrong on the copyright, it was 97'.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 10:08:24 PM »
Peter, thanks for posting those links and the results that you found.   In the few times that I have made dough using the FP and measuring water and dough temps, I noted the same thing.  That temps seem to equalize with room temps quite readily.  I did not time to see how long it took but each time I took the temps, like you I was surprise at how relatively quick it was. 

DMC, I'm sure they did a lot of tests to somewhat dummy proof the recipes.  It seems that more people of the current generation have little desire to learn a trade or an art but would rather have a book to buy with a sure fire easy to learn method that produces quick results.  Who cares if the results are mediocre right?  Like you said, it was also back in the 80's and things have changed a lot since then.  I'm sure his book and methods seem revolutionary at the time.  I'm actually impress that it has stood the test of time and that by today's standard, his method still produces a good dough and finish product. 

I'm actually disappointed that I didn't know about his book at the time I bought my Cuisinart FP, b/c one of the main reasons I bought it was to use it to make pizza dough.  I started to experiment with it producing some decent results and ended up side tracked with other techniques out there.

Bill, I too have found high favor with Chad's recipe and method for the country bread.  Though I have modified it a bit to fit my schedule, it too is somewhat of a dummy proofed method.  Let us not forgot how many years he devoted his life to learning bread from the masters before we were given such a technique to make outstanding bread and pizza.   I made a great loaf of Lazy Man's bread (aka Tartine bread) but unfortunately the pics are stuck on my phone at the moment. 

Cheers all,
Chau

parallei

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2011, 10:45:59 PM »
No, I didn't pay attention to the temps.  But, in the spirt of silliness, I bring you you this century's cusinart neapolitan method.  Not recommended.  However, it has been my experience that 24 hours in the fridge can be very forgiving.  So, we'll see......

2 Days Later

The 70% HR, 100% 00 dough was very delicate and really hard to manage.  I re-balled it, rested it, then carefully formed and topped.  Alas, over stone, when push came to shove, it all fell apart.  Not a bad tasting pie.  Big mess on the stone though.  Do not try this at home :-[

« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 10:25:38 PM by parallei »

Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2011, 11:55:40 PM »
tonight's bake at home in my primevera 70. haven't had a neapolitan pizza in over a week so it was enjoyable. the van over method works for me . mixing a batch of dough in minutes is ideal while at work.  pics

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2011, 12:03:56 AM »
@thezaman, you know, I just recently bought a brand new KA food processor, big and powerful, may have to revive the Van Over technique myself. I just wish someone would wash it and put it away for me. :-D


Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 08:22:20 AM »
 dmcavanaugh, thats the other beauty the bowl and blade have very little residual dough on them. clean up takes under a minute. that is with 60% hydration, wetter dough might be messier.

Offline tikidoc

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2011, 08:46:13 AM »
Very timely thread for me.  My KitchenAid "Professional" stand mixer, about 2 years old (therefore out of warranty) died making a bagel dough yesterday, so the Cuisinart FP is going to have to stand in until I can get the KA fixed or replaced.  Is it just me, or are the KAs not what they used to be?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2011, 08:49:47 AM »
Paul, good luck with that stick blender dough.   :-D

Larry, nice looking pies as always.

Bill - forgot to say thanks for posting those CI results.  Good to know that a finish dough temp of 98F wasn't detrimental.

Here are a few pies made last Thursday from my FP.  This first pie is a 9 day cold fermented dough.  The 2nd is a 2 day CF dough.  

Offline thezaman

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2011, 10:24:50 AM »
as far as temperatures go lower temps would give the dough more fermentation time possibly more flavor?? chau, that two day dough looks perfect. I'm sure the two day tasted good, how was the 9 day?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2011, 10:34:30 AM »
Thanks, both were good Larry.   I was surprised that the dough lasted 9 days, but since it was made with IDY, it wasn't much more flavorful than the 2 day starter pie.

Forgot to mention, that the 2nd pie is 57% hydration and I liked it a lot.

Sometimes, I hate being a pizzaholic.  I Need a break from pizza but have some new ideas.  Going to make dough now.  :(
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 10:37:09 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2011, 10:44:45 AM »
I was surprised that the dough lasted 9 days, but since it was made with IDY, it wasn't much more flavorful than the 2 day starter pie.

Chau,

It is hard to get a very accurate fix on equivalency of room-temperature and cold fermented doughs, but based on my experience and also as pizzanapoletana (Marco) reported at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1261.msg11336/topicseen.html#msg11336, it looks like you are in the ballpark.

Peter

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2011, 11:10:55 AM »
Very timely thread for me.  My KitchenAid "Professional" stand mixer, about 2 years old (therefore out of warranty) died making a bagel dough yesterday, so the Cuisinart FP is going to have to stand in until I can get the KA fixed or replaced.  Is it just me, or are the KAs not what they used to be?
No, they are not what mine is, a genuine Hobart. If your KA was bought after 1986, it's a Whirlpool product and not a Hobart product. KA's have a plastic sacrificial gear which will break before the motor is overloaded. If you were making a bagel dough you probably broke that gear. There are a number of instructional videos online that show you how to replace it. My pre 1986 Hobart made KA mixer can still easily handle a bagel dough for 12 large bagels using high gluten flour.

Offline tikidoc

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Re: cusinart neapolitan style
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2011, 11:24:51 AM »
I don't think the gear is broken.  When I take the dough out of the bowl and turn on the mixer, it turns and sounds totally normal.  Put the dough back in and it immediately stops and screams.  It was maybe a 50% hydration dough, so it should be more than able to handle it (and has in the past). Might still work OK for wetter doughs, batters and egg whites but I have not tried those since it seized up.

Don't want to hijack the thread - I'm in the market for a new mixer, and have a thread on it.  If you have advise, please go to http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15139.0.html

Leaning towards the Electrolux...


 

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