Author Topic: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book  (Read 32895 times)

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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2010, 09:12:05 AM »
what about using this technique with caputo, have you thought about it ?? that will be very interesting... can wait for december wen im in the US, for sure will have a overweight problem at the airport....  :-D !!!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 09:14:14 AM by andreguidon »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2010, 09:22:16 AM »
what about using this technique with caputo, have you thought about it ?? that will be very interesting... can wait for december wen im in the US, for sure will have a overweight problem at the airport....  :-D !!!

Of course.  :-D  I made a dough using a modified version of his hand technique using 1/2 caputo and 1/2 HG flour to be baked with the above pies.   I posted the results here...reply #32.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12140.20.html

I think you already saw that, but next batch will be 3/4 00 and 1/4 BF or HG flour to hopefully give the crust a bit of a crunch and some strength. 

You'll love the book when you get it I'm sure.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 09:29:56 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2010, 09:23:30 AM »
what about using this technique with caputo, have you thought about it ?? that will be very interesting... can wait for december wen im in the US, for sure will have a overweight problem at the airport....  :-D !!!

See very first post in this thread. I used 100% Caputo.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2010, 09:30:44 AM »
See very first post in this thread. I used 100% Caputo.

Bill, what hydration % did you use? 

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2010, 09:42:52 AM »
Bill, what hydration % did you use? 

Jeez, I'm now having trouble remembering exactly what I did. Too much bread and Nutella. IIRC it was just the standard rustic bread with Caputo for the white flour.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2010, 09:55:05 AM »
Jeez, I'm now having trouble remembering exactly what I did. Too much bread and Nutella. IIRC it was just the standard rustic bread with Caputo for the white flour.

I hear ya.  :-D  I think the rustic country bread recipe list the hydration at 75%, but with the leaven it actually is 77%.  That would be (IMO) way too high for caputo.  And you use AP flour for your leaven? The highest I might go on HR for 100% caputo is 66% or so give or take 1-2%.   At 77%, there is not enough turns doing a turn every 30m for 3 hour to build enough strength into the dough, thus the flat bread results. 

If you are interested in redoing the experiment with caputo, you may consider using a hydration ratio closer to what you normally use for your pizza doughs or go with 66-67%.  Also I upped the salt content b/c he uses 2% (i believe) and I like 2.5%+.   I bet you'll get a much better result.

I plan on doing a 3/4 caputo 1/4 HG flour blend today or tomorrow with this technique and will use 68% HR myself.

Using caputo was a good call for your WFO, bread flour would not fair to well at those temps but with a 77% HR it actually might.  So who knows.  Maybe try both.   :-D

Chau
« Last Edit: October 31, 2010, 09:57:17 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2010, 08:27:29 PM »
I tried this recipe in my oven set up last night:

75% hydration
Flour :50% HG from Bob;'s Red mill, 10 % KAWW, 40 % harvest king APF.
2.2 % salt
20 % ischia levean

3 hour bulk rise with 2 turns per hour.
3 hour proof in 275 gm ball form.

13 ' pies.

The dough was really nice to open and had good strength, though not nearly as strong and sheetable as sputnik dough.  And yess it was light and billowy (gas filled).

The problem was that once dressed it would stick to the peel due to wet spots.  This was about 10 &% higher hydration than anything i've made before so maybe i was to stingy with the bench flour for this high hydration dough.

It had a nice subtle sourness to it and a moist crumb.  A bit too moist and gummy a dough for my oven set up.

I am considering a hybrid approach for my next bake where I do a 6 minute post autolyse bosch mix followed by 3 hours of a tartine turning bulk rise.  I hope this gives the best of both worlds:  Nasa strength and tartine billows! :-D  I'll drop the hydration to 65% as well.

I also baked 2 loaves of country bread from this recioe and it was just about perfect in terms of crumb structure and taste.  Still working on my shaping though.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 08:52:23 PM by ponzu »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2010, 08:42:50 PM »
I am trying to create what I call the Masters' dough using the bosch tonight.  I'm looking for that light and billowy dough. 

Chau

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2010, 07:11:43 PM »
JT,

Any results on the Bosch masters dough? 

AZ


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2010, 08:47:40 PM »
JT,

Any results on the Bosch masters dough? 

AZ

Alexi, I started a batch of 00 dough in the bosch with 20% of my ischia starter (fed with AP), pinch of IDY, and a bit of old dough.  I mixed it for about 1 min to get all the ingredients (sans salt) incorporated.  Gave it a 30min rest period (modified autolyse).   When I preceeded to add the salt in and knead the dough after the rest, I intently studied the way the bosch mixes dough.   The majority of the dough is held on the center shaft while the arms turn pulling the dough in centripetal manner wrapping the dough upon itself.   This causes "tearing" of the dough if you will.

This is NOT what I want.  I want the dough to fold upon itself without tearing.  When I watch a fork mixer it appears that the dough is fold upon itself but it doesn't look like the dough is being torn and then mixed together. 

At this point I decided to abandon the experiment, pulled the dough out of the bosch and completed the turns by hand.   Perhaps at another date,  I will repeat the experiment and carry through with it completely in the bosch. 

As it is, I was able to make the dough I wanted BUT proofed it in the microwave too long.   After the bake, it was apparent that the dough was a bit overfermented.  The crumb resembled both in texture and taste that of my cold fermented dough despite it being only a 5 hour dough. 

Notice that though the crumb is airy, but it is dry looking.  This was due to overfermentation and not overkneading as the dough still opened up like a masters' dough should.

The pie looked nice but not my best.  As is, it was still tasty since I loaded her up with buffala mozz and sprinkled a touch of sea salt I got from member PaulsPizza.  Thanks Paul!.

Chau
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 08:51:58 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2010, 12:17:25 AM »
Interesting Chau.

I kind of share your concerns that later in the fermentation the bosch might be too vigorous and might disrupt the open "billowy" crumb structure.  I see no reason why an early stage Bosch mix won't add to the structure and gluten matrix.  Especcially for pizzaas opposed to bread.

Your crumb in the previous pies did look much better.  These look a bit overblown.  But that is only in comparison to your previous master's dough.

Thanks for posting your results.

AZ


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2010, 12:35:50 AM »
Alexi, I'm a picky SOB these days.  :-D  When my inlaws eat the pizza, they are tripping over themselves saying how good it is.  They have no idea what good really is.  I guess it's all relative. 

I have a theory that the billowy-ness comes from folding of the dough and the trapping of air along with a sufficient bulk fermentation.   I have shared this with others and they do not share my speculations.   I am planning to do a few experiments tonight.   I would really love to make the masters' dough using the bosch.  Tonight I plan on kneading a blended dough in the bosch and letting it bulk overnight.   It should be very airy in the morning if there is sufficient gluten built into the dough.   At that point, I can ball it gently and have the masters' dough ready to be baked a few hours after that once the gluten has relaxed again.   This test should either put my theory to rest or support it.   

If it doesn't, then I will repeat the test making 2 batches.  One with manual hand turns and one with the bosch.   

Chau
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 03:03:05 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2010, 12:53:13 AM »
Alexi, I'm a picky SOB these days.  :-D  When my inlaws eat the pizza, they are tripping overthemselves saying how good it is.  They have no idea what good really is.  I guess it's all relative. 

I have a theory that the billowy-ness comes from folding of the dough and the trapping of air along with a sufficient bulk fermentation.   I have shared this with others and they do not share my speculations.   I am planning to do a few experiments tonight.   I would really love to make the masters' dough using the bosch.  Tonight I plan on kneading a blended dough in the bosch and letting it bulk overnight.   It should be very airy in the morning if there is sufficient gluten built into the dough.   At that point, I can ball it gently and have the masters' dough ready to be baked a few hours after that once the gluten has relaxed again.   This test should either put my theory to rest or support it.   

If it doesn't, then I will repeat the test making 2 batches.  One with manual hand turns and one with the bosch.   

Chau

I know what you mean about being a picky SOB when it comes to pizza.  I've made overfermented batches so bad that i was depressed for days over my lame ass dough.  The friends who ate it though?  "That was the most amazing crust."  "The best pizza ever."

The take home to me is that the average Joe doesn't know %$# from shinola when it comes to pizza!  I take the criticism of this board much more seriously than any comment from a friend who doesn't make piza his or herself.

That being said,  I'm pretty sure I would very much enjoy your most recent pies.  They look imperfect whan measured against your past efforts, but damn good all the same.

AZ

AZ

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2010, 12:57:32 AM »
The take home to me is that the average Joe doesn't know %$# from shinola when it comes to pizza! 

Alexi.

Is it possible your friends are just being polite? Most friends will never tell you something tastes bad, even if it does. My wife, on the other hand, is brutally honest with me. When she says something is good, I know she really thinks that. 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2010, 01:03:01 AM »
Alexi, I appreciate the nice words.

Bill I must be doing something right lately as my wife use to say, "I don't like it when you make those italian type pizzas" to the other day when she said, that's the best crust so far and I had to remind her it was made with 00, and these are those italian type pizzas that she doesn't like very much.  :-D

Anyways it's 11pm.  I'm leaving on a week long trip on Sunday, so I'm making some fresh mozz right now and gonna be kneading up some dough as soon as the starter is ready.  Gotta have pizza tomorrow before I go a whole week without making any.   Life is good.... ;D

cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 03:04:38 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2010, 01:20:33 AM »
Alexi.

Is it possible your friends are just being polite? Most friends will never tell you something tastes bad, even if .it does. My wife, on the other hand, is brutally honest with me. When she says something is good, I know she really thinks that. 


Absolutely Bill.  That's a definate possibility,  though the comments seemed sincere at the time.  I guess the take home point is that the comment of  a guest is not a metric to put any faith in when it comes to judging one's own pizza.

I also put a lot of faith in my wifes criticism.  She's Japanese.  She knows well prepared food, and is not afraid to rip apart my weaker efforts. :-D

AZ

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2010, 02:19:03 AM »
Quote
Notice that though the crumb is airy, but it is dry looking.

Chau, I'm slightly confused. Could you clarify what you mean by a "dry looking" crumb and how you think "overfermentation" is responsible for lack of moisture? Are you suggesting that greater gluten breakdown from over-fermentation resulted in more moisture loss during baking?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 02:20:34 AM by cornicione54 »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2010, 02:56:37 AM »
Chau, I'm slightly confused. Could you clarify what you mean by a "dry looking" crumb and how you think "overfermentation" is responsible for lack of moisture? Are you suggesting that greater gluten breakdown from over-fermentation resulted in more moisture loss during baking?


I think when you have overfermentation you have a couple of things going on.  There are enzymes breaking down the gluten matrix releasing water and actually making the dough feel softer and a bit more wet.  The dough will be harder to handle and feel more slack.  But the resulting crumb structure is anything but moist.

I'm not sure if during the bake the excess moisture is released because it's now free, but the crumb is definitely more dry to the touch and taste.   Part of the toughness of the dough is also due to the excess acids produced during overfermentation.  This has a strengthening effect on the gluten strands.  Again this isn't due to overkneading and/or a low hydration which are 2 other sources for tough dry crumbs.

As a result, an overfermented dough has less oven spring and a slightly tougher crumb.  The greater the fermentation, the tougher and drier the crumb will be.  I know you can't taste the crumb through the computer but if you study the crumb structures carefully it is quite evident what I am referring to.   This was one of the first same day doughs that this has happened to me.   This was purely caused by several reasons.  One being that I proofed the dough at higher than normal/room temps in the microwave b/c I was impatient and wanting to bake before it got too late.   Obviously when you proof at higher temps, the window of screwing things up becomes smaller.  I let it stay in too long.  The other reason is that I had about 5 hours from start to finish so I added too many sources of yeast to this dough. 

Here are some better crumb shots of similar pies.  These were just as airy but also moist and tender and no hint of dryness.  These are taken from various pies and different sections of the crust.  Some of these are actually from the same pies despite looking different.   I want to clarify that these are not tartine pizzas.  For the most part, they are just some crumb shots from same day pies. 

Sorry about hijacking the thread, just wanted to clarify with some pics.

Chau
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 03:06:51 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2010, 03:01:01 AM »
I'll see if I can find a few more of my preferred type of crumb. 


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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2010, 03:08:04 AM »
Thanks for the clarification Chau. I know it's hard to convey texture through pictures but I think I have a better understanding of what you were saying. Regarding the theory behind the "dry crumb", I have a feeling it may have less to do with gluten and more to do with the ratio of wheat starches  amylopectin and amylose present in the dough after extended fermentation.....but it's just a theory at the moment (I'm still trying to figure it out!).

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2010, 03:17:52 AM »
Cornicione, I'm still trying to figure it out myself.  This is the best I can do with the limited knowledge and understanding I have.  I'm aware I could be completely wrong here. 

Chau

PaulsPizza

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2010, 04:33:01 AM »
Chau, those pizzas look very tasty! Do you use the same sauce recipe with all your pies?
Glad the salt I sent you added a nice taste to the pie :-)

Enjoy the cruise buddy.

Paul

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2010, 08:08:30 AM »
Thanks Paul.  I like to mix things up when it comes to saucing a NP style pie.  I use either a classic minimally dressed NP sauce, a spiced up slightly cooked NY style sauce, or a fresh sauce if I can get home grown tomatoes.  It doesn't bother me to intermix the styles a bit.

My wife likes more cheese and the NY style sauce, so even when I make NP dough, I'll make Neo-NY pie for her.

Chau

Offline ponzu

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Re: Pizza from the "Tartine Bread" book
« Reply #48 on: November 06, 2010, 01:30:11 PM »
I think the first pic in post 43 shows nearly perfect crumb structure and fermentation.  I think that perfectly fermented dough has lots of small bubbles with very thin walls.  Over fermented dough on the other hand will still have lots of gas.... It will just be trapped in thicker walled larger bubbles formed by the degregation of all the previously formed thin walled bubbles.

I thnk this is part of the reason that  dough has a tough crumb as described by JT.

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