Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 27080 times)

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Offline norma427

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Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« on: October 22, 2010, 09:08:33 AM »

I have been studying about kefir and how it could be incorporated like a sourdough starter into a Lehmann dough.  This link tells about kefir and some of the ways it can be used.  This link is a forum that has many pages about the use of kefir.  By what I have read it looks like kefir can be used in making bread, so I thought why not try to use kefir for a pizza dough. 
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=203282

The lady I ordered the kefir from emailed me last evening and said she sent my kefir grains yesterday and I might get them today or probably this weekend.  That is why I am posting asking for help now.  I think I would need to try about 1 cup of active kefir in a pizza dough, but am not sure. From what I have read and the lady explained to me about using the grains, the active mixture should be ready for use in a few days. 

If you look down on the first page of this thread it tells about making a sourdough starter with kefir.  It says kefir can also be used as a special milk-free sourdough starter.  I think for now, until I understand about using kefir more and how it behaves, I will use milk with the kefir grains to try and make a preferment Lehmann pizza dough with kefir. There are many bread recipes in the link mentioned above.

Learning new ideas and formulas for making pizza-time and experiments
Studying new ideas about leavening pizza-time and experiments
Learning how kefir could be used in pizza dough-studying, time and experiments
Getting grains of Kefir for experiments-more studying and excited to try it out to see if it works
Help with making pizza dough with kefir-priceless

I donít know at this time if kefir will work out well in a Lehman dough, but would like to try it to see what kind of results there could be.  I would like to try a little higher hydration for this kefir Lehmann dough.  I would like to try about 62% hydration.

I will post a picture of the kefir grains when they come in the mail.

Norma
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Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2010, 05:16:38 PM »
I've never heard of Kefir Grains!  But a large maker of Kefir is located near me!  Is it possible to use it in yogurt form to make bread? I'm looking into it now.

I wish you much success in your venture :)  :pizza:

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2010, 06:38:35 PM »
I've never heard of Kefir Grains!  But a large maker of Kefir is located near me!  Is it possible to use it in yogurt form to make bread? I'm looking into it now.

I wish you much success in your venture :)  :pizza:


Mick.Chicago,

This is what kefir grains look like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefir  I never tried kefir before, but was looking on the web for starters that had high probiotics and the search took me to kefir.  After reading about kefir for awhile and seeing some people do use kefir for bread and some people have used kefir for pizza dough, I thought I wondered why more people donít use kefir in pizza dough.  By what I understand the kefir grains will keep making more kefir if you feed them milk, then sieve the grains out and refeed them more milk.  Fresh kefir is supposed to be better for people than yogurt with kefir.

I donít think you can make bread out of the kefir yogurt.  I think you need the kefir grains to start out with. 

Let me know how your search turns out. After I get my kefir grains and if they work, I will give anyone the information of where I purchased them. By my searching it looks like there are people in most states that sell the kefir grains.  I would be interested in another member also trying to make pizza or bread out of kefir.

Thanks for wishing me success in this venture.   :)

Norma
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2010, 06:50:03 PM »
Norma,

To make bread from Kefir is actually possible. In Germany we had, and still have, many Turkish stores who sold bread made from Kefir.

Kefir itself is a healthy drink made from fermented milk, if I remember correctly. I used to drink that stuff at least once a week because it was available in Supermarkets all the time. Especially strawberry Kefir and banana Kefir...ahhh, the memories.

Here are, hopefully, a couple of helpful links:

http://chikouskyfarms.com/article/11/kefir-bread

http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/recipes/starter.php

The second one shows you how to make a starter from Kefir whey, using Kefir grains.

Good luck in your new endeavor.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 07:07:38 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2010, 07:04:59 PM »
Norma,

To make bread from Kefir is actually possible. In Germany we had, and still have, many Turkish stores who sold bread made from Kefir.

Kefir itself is a healthy dink made from fermented milk, if I remember correctly. I used to drink that stuff at least once a week because it was available in Supermarkets all the time. Especially strawberry Kefir and banana Kefir...ahhh, the memories.

Here are, hopefully, a couple of helpful links:

http://chikouskyfarms.com/article/11/kefir-bread

http://www.rejoiceinlife.com/recipes/starter.php

The second one shows you how to make a starter from Kefir whey, using Kefir grains.

Good luck in your new endeavor.




Mike,

Thanks a lot for the links.  ;D  Good to hear that making bread out of kefir is possible.  I wonder what kind of formula the Turkish stores that made bread used.

I also looked how healthy the drinks are supposed to be made out of kefir.  I see on the first link I posted how many things can be made out of kefir.  I just wonder how it will do in a pizza dough. That's great to hear that you really liked the kefir strawberry and banana drink.  I wish I would have tried kefir in drinks before, but I never heard of it. 

Thanks for the good luck in this endeavor.   :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2010, 07:37:27 PM »
Norma,

Will you be buying and raising goats to make a goat milk kefir for your Lehmann NY Goat Milk Kefir-Style Pizza at market, and will you be required to keep the goats at market?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2010, 08:18:35 PM »
Norma,

Will you be buying and raising goats to make a goat milk kefir for your Lehmann NY Goat Milk Kefir-Style Pizza at market, and will you be required to keep the goats at market?

Peter

Peter,

LOL, you sure are funny. From what I understand kefir can be made with any kind of milk, but raw cows or goats milk is supposed to be the best to use.  There are standholders at market that do sell both kinds of raw milk.  I don't see how the inspectors could disapprove of me making kefir from some of their milks.  It is an organic stand that sells the milks.  I did buy some raw milk today at our local country store to try if I receive the kefir grains soon.  That milk is dated good until 10/29/10. 

Right now I just want to see if making pizza with kefir is possible or not.  If the kefir pizza is successful, then I could think about what would happen it I tried to use the kefir to leaven the dough at market. I couldn't see there would be any problems, since the kefir would be baked, but I don't know.

Do you think it is possible to make a pizza with kefir?  I could try and figure out a formula if you could tell me about what amount of kefir I should try.

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2010, 08:31:55 PM »
Do you think it is possible to make a pizza with kefir?  I could try and figure out a formula if you could tell me about what amount of kefir I should try.

Norma,

If kefir can be used to make bread dough, it should be possible to use it to make pizza dough. What I don't know is how sour the pizza crust becomes. I have made pizza crusts before that were sourdough-based in the classic tradition and I did not like the taste. They were a lot different than what you get using cultures such as the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures.

I assume that you would like to make a completely naturally leavened pizza dough rather than a hybrid version with commercial yeast also. If that is correct, I'd like to look at some kefir sourdough recipes and do some calculations to see what amounts of kefir are typically used to make sourdough dough. Unfortunately, it may not be possible to use the dough calculating tools to be able to easily make changes in the formulations. I think it would be possible to use the tools if water were used to make the kefir rather than milk. Maybe treating the milk and water as though they are the same thing might be good enough in using the tools.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2010, 08:40:24 PM »
Norma,

If kefir can be used to make bread dough, it should be possible to use it to make pizza dough. What I don't know is how sour the pizza crust becomes. I have made pizza crusts before that were sourdough-based in the classic tradition and I did not like the taste. They were a lot different than what you get using cultures such as the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures.

I assume that you would like to make a completely naturally leavened pizza dough rather than a hybrid version with commercial yeast also. If that is correct, I'd like to look at some kefir sourdough recipes and do some calculations to see what amounts of kefir are typically used to make sourdough dough. Unfortunately, it may not be possible to use the dough calculating tools to be able to easily make changes in the formulations. I think it would be possible to use the tools if water were used to make the kefir rather than milk. Maybe treating the milk and water as though they are the same thing might be good enough in using the tools.

Peter

Peter & Norma,

I just had an idea. Norma could start out by making smaller batches for a Turkish Kefir flatbread before she goes into full pizza mode.

That would give you, Norma, time to study the outcome albeit on a smaller scale which you then could transfer over to your pizza dough. A DŲner flatbread isn't that much different than pizza dough and I know some Turkish guys make it with Kefir or Buttermilk.

Just a thought.
Mike

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2010, 08:44:23 PM »
Peter,

What I have read so far about making kefir and using it as a sourdough starter is the more it is left sit, say two days opposed to three days will give a more sourdough taste.  I am not sure of this until I try the kefir in a pizza.  I have never tasted a pizza that was sourdough based in the classic tradition, so I donít know if I would like that taste or not in a pizza.

I would like to try a naturally leavened dough with kefir.  I will wait until your look at some sourdough recipes to see what you find out.  The kefir grains and the raw milk are mixed together to ferment.  Then the fermented kefir is supposed to be used in bread or pizzas.  That is what I understand so far.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2010, 08:48:04 PM »
Peter & Norma,

I just had an idea. Norma could start out by making smaller batches for a Turkish Kefir flatbread before she goes into full pizza mode.

That would give you, Norma, time to study the outcome albeit on a smaller scale which you then could transfer over to your pizza dough. A DŲner flatbread isn't that much different than pizza dough and I know some Turkish guys make it with Kefir or Buttermilk.

Just a thought.

Mike,

I never tried Turkish Kefir flatbread before, but find your idea interesting.  What does Turkish flatbread look like?  Great to know that a flatbread can be made of kefir.  I will have to search the web to see how you go about making Turkish flatbread with kefir.

Thanks for your idea,   :)

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2010, 09:16:41 PM »
If anyone is interested here is a Kefir mycroscopy of fruit Kefir and a Kefir grain.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpsDSf1U5dc" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpsDSf1U5dc</a>


Norma
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Offline PizzaPolice

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2010, 10:44:17 PM »

Hmmm...

Norma

It's so funny you posted a request about kefir.  I'm in the process of "waking up" my frozen kefir grains from the freezer.  I was thinking about kefir dough and also kefir gelato.  How weird.

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2010, 11:13:58 PM »
Hmmm...

Norma

It's so funny you posted a request about kefir.  I'm in the process of "waking up" my frozen kefir grains from the freezer.  I was thinking about kefir dough and also kefir gelato.  How weird.

PizzaPolice,

Do you know about using kefir grains and fermenting them and using them in a pizza dough?  That is interesting that you have frozen kefir grains.  I didn't know they could be frozen.  The kefir gelato sounds great.   ;D  I really like gelato.  Looking forward to your results if you make either pizza or gelato with you kefir grains.   :)

Norma
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Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2010, 08:10:15 AM »
I did some reading yesterday and most of it was too do with turning Keifr grains into yogurt!  The one piece of advice I did read was that the first time you use them there might be a bad taste? But after that it's fine? 

I did find many Google results for 'yogurt bread' as well.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2010, 08:37:58 AM »
I did some reading yesterday and most of it was too do with turning Keifr grains into yogurt!  The one piece of advice I did read was that the first time you use them there might be a bad taste? But after that it's fine? 

I did find many Google results for 'yogurt bread' as well.




I also have been reading a lot in about the last week about kefir.  I have found a lot of articles how kefir works in yogurt and bread.  It seems that kefir grains are a lot more complex than the other strains they use to make yogurt.  This is one article I found about how a study shows that bread dough does stay fresher longer made with kefir.

http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Science-Nutrition/Kefir-grains-could-extend-shelf-life-of-sourdough-bread

Did your Google results for yogurt bread include those just made with the kefir grains?  It seems like kefir has been around for about 1,000 years.  That is a long time. 

Looking forward to see if you find out more about using kefir in bread.  Are you also going to be trying kefir in pizza dough?  When I get my kefir grains I will post what they look like and go though the whole process of feeding them with pictures, so if anyone else wants to also try kefir in a pizza, they can. 

Thanks for your help,

Norma
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 07:10:43 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2010, 09:30:28 AM »
I'd like to try it from another angle actually, I have access to a few local producers of Kefir and I'm interested if I can use something off the shelf and straight into the dough.

Put me in a package and label me lazy  :-D

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2010, 10:38:43 AM »
I'd like to try it from another angle actually, I have access to a few local producers of Kefir and I'm interested if I can use something off the shelf and straight into the dough.

Put me in a package and label me lazy  :-D

Mick.Chicago,

Thatís interesting to hear that you want to try using the Kefir from another angle.  :)  Since you have a few local producers of Kefir, it will be interesting to see your results.  You arenít lazy, you are just trying Kefir from another angle.  :-D

Looking forward to seeing your results.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2010, 01:47:15 PM »
I received the Kefir grains today.  ;D  I was like a little child waiting anxiously to see what Kefir grains really look like.  Something like waiting to open a Christmas present, when I was small. 

They surprised me in that they are soft and smell just about like an active Ischia starter smells.  Included were many pages of instructions. I donít know how I can post all the instructions if anyone is interested, but I will think about how I could post all the pages of instructions.  If anyone is interested in the Sourdough Bread the Easy Way, I can easily post that recipe. 

Along with the instructions are websites where there are links to Dominic website in Australia that lists all the microflora isolated from kefir grains.   

These kefir grains were fed on goats milk.  I am going to place them in a glass container, feed them raw milk and watch what happens.  I will post more pictures if anyone is interested in seeing what happens to the Kefir grains. 

I didnít want to post the place where I bought the Kefir grains before in case I didnít receive them or maybe they werenít the right kind.  Since I did receive them and they look like they are in good shape, if anyone wants to know where I purchased them I will provide the link.

Pictures below

Norma
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