Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough (Read 15989 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #100 on:** November 03, 2010, 07:24:34 PM »

Norma,

Now that you have conducted several experiments with the milk kefir, using it directly or as part of a milk kefir poolish, have you drawn any conclusions about the merit of using the milk kefir for your intended purposes, particularly at market? Also, is there any advantage to using the milk kefir instead of the Ischia Lehmann preferment? I know that you reported that the results using the milk kefir compared favorably with the Ischia Lehmann preferment, but wondered whether the advantages were sufficient to pick the milk kefir over the Ischia Lehmann preferment.

Do you know where you now want to take the milk kefir experiments? I sense that there are some prefermentation issues with using a small amount of milk kefir poolish (15% of the total formula flour) to get it to a suitable stage to refrigerate before incorporating into the final dough. I suspect that some of these concerns may magnify, or at least require modifications, including possibly using your proofing box or the Hatco unit, as the weather turns colder. Fortunately, you have successfully navigated using the commercially-leavened Lehmann preferment/dough over a full range of temperatures, so you have the luxury of playing around with other methods, including the recent kefir methods.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #101 on:** November 03, 2010, 08:34:11 PM »

Peter,

I have conducted a few experiment with both the milk kefir poolish and the direct method of adding the milk kefir, but I am not sure at this point of what can be achieved with the milk kefir starter at market. I think I will have to do some more experiments to see how either method works out at home first. I don’t know at this point in time what is possible with the milk kefir. I couldn’t taste much difference in using the milk kefir over the Ischia Lehmann preferment. I am not sure if there is enough milk kefir added either in the direct method or the poolish. It seems like when the poolish method is used with the milk kefir and the dough is then cold fermented there doesn’t seem like there is enough poolish in the dough, because it is really slow in cold fermenting.

I don’t even know if my customers would notice that much difference in any dough made with the milk kefir or Ischia starter. The preferment Lehmann dough is still good, for many uses. My customers aren’t really used to trying pizzas made with starters, so I don’t know if there would be any advantages to using either starter. I have been giving some slices to my trusted taste testers and although they did like both the Ischia starter pies and the milk kefir pies, they say they still think the Preferment Lehmann Pizza is good.

I think I want to continue to experiment with the milk kefir, but I don’t know what direction to try next. I think this milk kefir starter does have some possible advantages over the Ischia starter, but I might not have found what the advantages are at this time. I can understand I probably would need to use the Hatco Unit for either the Ishcia starter or this milk kefir starter if I wanted to be able to make those doughs at market.

I bought the Tartine Bread Book and have been reading over the book. I am going to try a dough for bread with the milk kefir starter, in the next week. Hopefully the milk kefir starter will be able to leaven the dough for the bread.

Do you have any ideas what would be good to try next with the milk kefir experiment?

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #102 on:** November 03, 2010, 08:51:00 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on November 03, 2010, 08:34:11 PM

Do you have any ideas what would be good to try next with the milk kefir experiment?

Norma,

About the only thing that occurs to me at this time is to use more milk kefir poolish and/or use a higher prefermentation temperature. You could try doubling the milk kefir poolish to see if that jumpstarts things such that you don't have to use a long prefermentation period.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #103 on:** November 03, 2010, 09:00:23 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on November 03, 2010, 08:51:00 PM

Norma,

About the only thing that occurs to me at this time is to use more milk kefir poolish and/or use a higher prefermentation temperature. You could try doubling the milk kefir poolish to see if that jumpstarts things such that you don't have to use a long prefermentation period.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me I could try doubling the milk kefir poolish. I will try that out.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #104 on:** November 04, 2010, 01:27:04 PM »

I won’t post anymore pictures of the milk kefir grains, that were fermenting in raw milk and regular whole cows milk, but if anyone is interested the milk kefir grains did ferment the same in both milks. I didn’t drain and feed both of the milks last evening, but early this afternoon I did drain and feed them both again. I wanted to see if both of these milk kefirs did get tarter in flavor. I tasted the milk kefir and it is a little more tart this afternoon.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #105 on:** November 05, 2010, 10:01:05 PM »

I tried a Country Bread from the Tartine Bread book today with the milk kefir starter. The bread did need a much longer time to ferment, both bulk and cold fermented, but the milk kefir starter did work out in leavening the dough for bread. This is the link where I posted a picture of the bread I made today.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg116289.html#msg116289

There also must be a successful way to use this milk kefir starter to make pizza.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #106 on:** November 07, 2010, 08:52:35 AM »

After trying the Country Bread from the Tartine Bread book with the milk kefir starter, it made me more curious just how much bread making and pizza making are related. I found out when I left the dough for the bread ferment for another day, there was a big difference in the bread when using a starter. I haven’t conducted enough experiments, but right now I think bread making and pizza making are almost the same, in terms of getting a finished product that can be good if you use the right fermentation times, ambient room temperatures, and ingredients.

This led me back to the milk kefir experiments with the pizza I am trying to create with the milk kefir starter. I think I learned a couple things from making the Tartine Country bread. I mixed a poolish yesterday morning with the milk kefir starter. Left the poolish room temperature ferment for 12 hours. Made the final dough using only flour, milk kefir poolish and water. Mixed dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer, left it sit for 15 minutes, then added the salt and oil. Another thing I found interesting with this experiment was when opening the lid on the milk kefir starter the lid wanted to pop, so that told me the milk kefir poolish was building pressure. After letting the final dough to bulk ferment at room temperatures, the lid on the final dough ball also popped when the lid was opened. The dough ball is now going to cold ferment for 2 days. The dough is very soft again. I put the numbers in for this formula on the preferment dough calculating tool. I hope I got the formula right in terms of the poolish starter and other percents from what I used before.

Information on pH, final dough temperature, ambient room temperature, and fermentation times.
pH of milk kefir starter before it was mixed with flour 4.06
pH of milk kefir starter poolish after room temperature ferment 4.47
pH of final dough 5.37
pH of dough ball after 8 hrs. room temperature ferment 5.19
ambient room temperature 72 degrees F
final dough temperature 74.8
final dough ball fermented for 8 hrs. at room temperature

Picture 1: bottom of milk kefir starter after fermented for final dough
Picture 2: top of milk kefir starter after fermented for final dough
Picture 3: finished dough ball
Picture 4: dough ball bottom after 8 hrs. room temperature ferment
Picture 5: dough formula I used

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #107 on:** November 07, 2010, 08:55:18 AM »

dough formula

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #108 on:** November 08, 2010, 05:59:42 PM »

I am trying another experiment with the milk kefir grains that are being fed raw milk. I have left some milk kefir grains fed with raw milk sit since Saturday in the same raw milk to see how the pH changes. This afternoon the pH of the milk kefir is now 4.21. I might try feeding some of this milk kefir with flour to see if it acts like a regular starter. Maybe this will help me understand the milk kefir better.

The milk kefir is now two colors as can be seen on this picture. It is a more yellow color on the top.

Picture below

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #109 on:** November 09, 2010, 09:50:16 PM »

The pizza was baked today using the milk kefir poolish. Before the pizza was baked the dough pH was 5.01. This pizza using a higher amount of milk kefir in the poolish did turn out better today in my opinion. The dough was left at ambient room temperatures at market today for 6 hrs. before the bake. When taken out of the oven, the pizza did have a nice crunch, when eating a slice. What interested me in this pizza compared to the other attempts I have made with the milk kefir is after the pizza was cooled down some, the crust then got softer, as can be seen in the last picture. I don’t know if the softness then came from the higher amount of milk kefir in the poolish or not, but I enjoyed this pizza better than my other attempts.

Pictures below

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #110 on:** November 09, 2010, 09:51:29 PM »

more pictures

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #111 on:** November 09, 2010, 09:52:50 PM »

more pictures

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #112 on:** November 09, 2010, 09:54:06 PM »

end of pictures

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #113 on:** November 10, 2010, 11:01:46 AM »

Norma,

Your latest milk kefir Lehmann pizza looks very good all the way around. I found your use of autolyse and the specific prefermentation/fermentation protocol to be interesting. Also, it appears that using more milk kefir poolish with that protocol was a good move. Maybe you can inch toward a poolish amount (by percent) that is like what you are now using for your preferment Lehmann dough formulation at market. I didn't check all of the timelines but do you think you could make the latest effort work at market, if you are inclined in that direction?

Also, how would you compare your latest efforts with similar ones using a natural leavening system (like the Ischia) and also your preferment Lehmann pizzas that you now make at market?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #114 on:** November 10, 2010, 12:08:37 PM »

Peter,

My latest milk kefir Lehmann pizza with the added amount of poolish was my best attempt so far, in terms of the taste of the crust and also how the crust became somewhat softer, after cooling some. I wanted to see in this experiment if letting the dough autolyse for a little while and adding the salt last would give the dough better results. It seemed to give better results in the finished pizza. What kind of poolish amount for the milk kefir starter, would you recommend me trying next?

I don’t know at this time, if a pizza made with a milk kefir poolish is possible at market, but I am willing to experiment. I still need to do a couple more experiments with one dough ball, to see what can be achieved before I go to more doughballs, or even see if the milk kefir poolish will work out okay in my Hatco unit. I might take enough milk kefir poolish along to market on Friday to see how it ferments in the Hatco unit. I know from past experiments that a larger batch of poolish for the Lehmann dough does ferment faster. I am not sure about the milk kefir poolish.

In comparing my results with the Ishica starter and also the preferment Lehmann doughs, I like using the milk kefir starter better, in the taste of the crust. I just have to understand more about the milk kefir starter. I think understanding the milk kefir starter poolish is harder to understand, from knowing when it is ready to be used and also knowing when the dough with the milk kefir starter is ready to be used. I also would like this crust to be a little bit browner. I could have kept the pizza in the oven for little longer yesterday, because the bottom wasn’t too dark, but I still don’t know if the crust would have become browner. My deck oven usually only takes about 15-30 seconds to achieve a browner crust, when making a preferment Lehmann pizza.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #115 on:** November 10, 2010, 01:02:55 PM »

Norma,

Sometime you may want to repeat your last experiment as closely as possible but leave out the autolyse and make your dough in the usual manner, including your normal sequencing of ingredients. That might tell us whether the autolyse is a beneficial method for your dough.

As far as increasing the amount of milk kefir poolish, I'd like to think about that for a while. As you well know, perhaps better than most, there has to be a balance between the amount of poolish and the several phases of the fermentation protocol. Based on what you reported in earlier posts, the last dough you made used a milk kefir poolish that was prefermented at room temperature for 12 hours, then incorporated into a final dough that was fermented at room temperature for 8 hours and then placed into the deli case for 2 days, and, after removing from the deli case, allowed to temper at room temperature for 6 hours before using. I hope I got that right. If you only change the amount of milk kefir poolish and leave everything else the same, you are likely to end up with a more fermented dough and possibly end up with even less crust color. So, I believe that you would have to change the durations of the three phases of the fermentation protocol (prefermentation of the poolish, fermentation of the final dough, and the temper of the final dough before using). From what you have reported to date, I agree with you that it is harder to tell how long to let the milk kefir poolish and finished dough ferment. It sounds like the milk kefir poolish doesn't exhibit the same behavior as your preferment Lehmann dough with the IDY, particularly with respect to the break point. It may ultimately turn out that the exact timing of the use of the preferment is not critical to success and that you might succeed well enough just by using time as the primary measurement. Of course, that might change some with the time of year.

I will report back in a while after I have thought this matter through some more.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #116 on:** November 10, 2010, 04:13:23 PM »

Peter,

I had thought about changing two variables when making the recent milk kefir poolish dough. I knew I had used a larger amount of the milk kefir in the poolish for the dough and also did the short autolyse. I knew from past experiences that even one variable can give different results.

I know there can also be a difference in the balance between the amount of poolish and the several phases of fermentation protocol. I have tried different changes in both.

You got the phases of the fermentation protocol right for what I did. I can see that if the milk kefir poolish is upped, there would have to be some kind of different protocol that might work.

As I posted in my preferment Lehmann dough thread, I don’t let the poolish come to the break point. It does well after the 3 days of fermenting in the deli case. Somehow that just works out. I do know that ambient temperatures at market will be the biggest obstacle.

I will await your recommendations.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #117 on:** November 10, 2010, 05:29:35 PM »

Norma,

Have you been following any visual indicators to tell you when to use the milk kefir preferment to make the final dough and also how long to temper the final dough when it comes out of the deli case?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #118 on:** November 10, 2010, 07:17:20 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on November 10, 2010, 05:29:35 PM

Norma,

Have you been following any visual indicators to tell you when to use the milk kefir preferment to make the final dough and also how long to temper the final dough when it comes out of the deli case?

Peter

Peter,

The only visual indicators I am using on the milk kefir poolish and final dough are the bubbles that form on the bottom of both. I just watched the milk kefir poolish until I thought it might be ready to be incorporated into the final dough. I am also taking pH values, but am not sure if they are good indicators of when the milk kefir poolish and final dough should be ready.

If you want me to post a worksheet for this last dough tomorrow for the pH’s and fermentation protocol, let me know and I will post a worksheet.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #119 on:** November 10, 2010, 07:44:11 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on November 10, 2010, 07:17:20 PM

If you want me to post a worksheet for this last dough tomorrow for the pH’s and fermentation protocol, let me know and I will post a worksheet.

Norma,

If you don't mind I would like to see the worksheet. I am not sure whether it will help but maybe I will be able to spot a pattern.

At the moment, I am thinking along the lines of having you increase the milk kefir preferment to 80% of the total formula water, as you have been doing for the preferment Lehmann dough that you are now using at market. That would be around 49.6% of the total formula flour weight or 30% of the total dough batch weight. The last two milk kefir doughs were 30% and 15% of the total formula flour weight. Going to 49.6% would give us a fairly wide spectrum and maybe help us zero in on a more optimum value. I would anticipate that you would use the same signs as you have been using to determine when to incorporate the milk kefir poolish into the final dough, to ferment the final dough and, after storing it in the deli case, to temper it prior to use to make a pizza. I think I's like to see if you can shorten the milk kefir preferment time and the final dough ferment time, even if it means a longer time for the final dough in the deli case. It would also be nice to shorten the temper time. The objective of the entire exercise would be to see if more of the natural sugars can be preserved.

Peter