Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 31243 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #160 on: November 24, 2010, 09:51:38 AM »
Norma,

I'm sure that there is some application where using diastatic malt works for its intended purpose. Maybe for the duration of your fermentation protocol you need to use more. Perhaps sometime you can try doubling the amount of diastatic malt and see if that works without making the dough overly slack.

I assume that making an 11-day dough for market is not a practical option despite its virtues. That would seem to leave the 60% poolish version to improve upon from the standpoint of crust coloration. Honey seems to work pretty well in delivering crust coloration but its downside is that you can't use too much because of the risk of ending up with a bottom crust that turn the desired degree of brown in your deck oven before the rim of the pizza browns up adequately. I typically use honey to get better crust color in emergency dough/pizzas. I think you might start with about 1.5% honey to test the limits of your oven. If it turns out that a test dough with the honey browns too quickly on the bottom, you can always slide one or two pizza screens under the pizza toward the end of its bake to lift it off of the stone surface while the rest of the pizza finishes baking.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #161 on: November 24, 2010, 12:15:08 PM »
Norma,

I'm sure that there is some application where using diastatic malt works for its intended purpose. Maybe for the duration of your fermentation protocol you need to use more. Perhaps sometime you can try doubling the amount of diastatic malt and see if that works without making the dough overly slack.

I assume that making an 11-day dough for market is not a practical option despite its virtues. That would seem to leave the 60% poolish version to improve upon from the standpoint of crust coloration. Honey seems to work pretty well in delivering crust coloration but its downside is that you can't use too much because of the risk of ending up with a bottom crust that turn the desired degree of brown in your deck oven before the rim of the pizza browns up adequately. I typically use honey to get better crust color in emergency dough/pizzas. I think you might start with about 1.5% honey to test the limits of your oven. If it turns out that a test dough with the honey browns too quickly on the bottom, you can always slide one or two pizza screens under the pizza toward the end of its bake to lift it off of the stone surface while the rest of the pizza finishes baking.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you are sure some application of using diastatic malt might work for the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough.  At some point I will try doubling the amount of diastatic malt and see if that works to help brown the crust.  All these doughs so far with the milk kefir poolish are very soft and easy to open.  When opening the doughs they almost fall open by themselves. 

You are correct that an 11-day or more dough wouldnít be practical for market, but sometime I might try this milk kefir poolish in the Lehmann dough to see how long a cold fermented dough can last.  I did have a short room temperature bulk with the 11-day  milk kefir poolish extra dough ball and also the 6 hr. market ferment time, so I would think this milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough could go for many more days.  The flavor in the crust of the extra dough ball that lasted for 11 days was the best.

In my next attempt, I will use 1.5% honey.  I will watch to see how the bottom crust browns. I have extra regular pizza screens at market, so I could use them if the crust starts to brown too quickly. Thanks for your help with the honey. 

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #162 on: November 26, 2010, 09:53:16 AM »
This is the new formula for my next attempt on the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough.  I am making two dough balls again.  This time I am not going to let the extra dough ball bulk ferment at all and see how many days a dough ball can cold ferment, until it has to be made into a pizza. 

Norma
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 09:55:35 AM by norma427 »
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #163 on: November 26, 2010, 10:47:12 PM »
These are pictures of how my milk kefir poolish looked today after I mixed it and after it had developed, before I mixed the milk kefir poolish into the final dough, that also had honey added to it.  The last two pictures are after I had divided the dough and balled, and then put the one extra one in the refrigerator to see how long it will last.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #164 on: November 27, 2010, 10:27:19 AM »
Norma,

When Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I designed the preferment dough calculating tool, we did not include honey as a sugar choice because we wanted to keep the tool as close as possible to naturally leavened doughs such as authentic Neapolitan doughs. The sugar and oil choices were added for those who want to make such doughs in a home environment using a standard oven. However, although you will sometimes read about how to convert an amount of sugar to honey and vice versa, according to member November, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6372.msg54612/topicseen.html#msg54612, it is fine to substitute honey for sugar on an equal weight basis. In the dough formulation you posted, for example, a weight of 8.37 grams of sugar would convert to [8.37/28.35)]/0.2467 = 1.2 teaspoons, or roughly 1 1/4 teaspoons, of honey. It sounds like you used both table sugar and honey, so your total sugar content will be higher than the dough formulation you posted suggests.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #165 on: November 27, 2010, 03:32:59 PM »
Norma,

When Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I designed the preferment dough calculating tool, we did not include honey as a sugar choice because we wanted to keep the tool as close as possible to naturally leavened doughs such as authentic Neapolitan doughs. The sugar and oil choices were added for those who want to make such doughs in a home environment using a standard oven. However, although you will sometimes read about how to convert an amount of sugar to honey and vice versa, according to member November, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6372.msg54612/topicseen.html#msg54612, it is fine to substitute honey for sugar on an equal weight basis. In the dough formulation you posted, for example, a weight of 8.37 grams of sugar would convert to [8.37/28.35)]/0.2467 = 1.2 teaspoons, or roughly 1 1/4 teaspoons, of honey. It sounds like you used both table sugar and honey, so your total sugar content will be higher than the dough formulation you posted suggests.

Peter


Peter,

I didnít add honey and sugar, but thought I would just add honey under sugar (because I didn't see any place to calculate honey in the preferment dough calculating tool.  As November posted, the dough should be okay if I just substituted honey for sugar.

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #166 on: November 29, 2010, 10:06:46 AM »
These are pictures and some explanations of how the three doughs balls with the milk kefir poolish are doing.  The first two pictures are of how the dough ball with the milk kefir poolish and honey look, top and bottom, this morning. I did reball that dough ball Saturday, because it had bubbles on the top.  I thought it might be to overfermented to use for Tuesday, so that is why I reballed it, to help distribute the sugars. 

The second dough ball with the milk kefir poolish (with honey added), made in the same batch of dough as the first dough ball, was put into the refrigerator right after balling.  It looks like it is cold fermenting slowly, this morning. I wonder how long that dough ball will last, until I have to bake it into a pizza. It looks promising to me that it will last awhile before it will have to be make into a pizza.

The third dough ball, is the bagel dough I had tried before with the milk kefir poolish.  I also reballed that dough ball yesterday. I made the bagel dough ball on Saturday.  I posted about that dough ball under Marcís thread on Fairmount bagels. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg118376.html#msg118376  If the bagel dough works okay for a pizza tomorrow, I will post under Marcís thread, and just link back to the thread here.  The bagel dough ball also looks and feels interesting to me.

Pictures below,

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #167 on: November 30, 2010, 11:37:18 PM »
Steve (Ev) and I made the pizza with the milk kefir poolish with added honey today.  The pizza turned out well.  The crust did brown more than my last attempt, but I donít think it still browned enough.  The pizza did have good oven spring and did taste good.  I wonder if adding more honey would be the next thing to try. I also am curious why some parts of this crust turned browner that other areas. No screen was needed for this pizza in the bake.

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #168 on: November 30, 2010, 11:38:56 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #169 on: November 30, 2010, 11:40:49 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #170 on: November 30, 2010, 11:43:00 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #171 on: November 30, 2010, 11:58:46 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how much honey you used by weight and/or by volume?

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #172 on: December 01, 2010, 12:05:08 AM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how much honey you used by weight and/or by volume?

Peter


Peter,

I used 8.37 grams of Wildflower Honey in the formula I posted at Reply 162 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118238.html#msg118238.

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #173 on: December 01, 2010, 12:12:23 AM »
Norma,

Was this the best of the milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizzas?

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #174 on: December 01, 2010, 12:21:36 AM »
Norma,

Was this the best of the milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, this was the best of the milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizzas.  The taste of the crust keeps getting better each week.  I don't know if I am understanding how the milk kefir poolish works in a dough, or if am fermenting or handling the dough better.  Each week I learn more.

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #175 on: December 01, 2010, 02:48:01 PM »
Norma,

Your experience with the crust coloration issue reminds me of an extensive series of experiments that one of our members (who hasn't been around on this forum for quite a while) conducted and discussed at the PMQ Think Tank a few years ago. Like you, he used a natural leavening system although in his case he used a rather unorthodox and elaborate preferment system that included using a natural poolish and a natural sponge in series before incorporating the combination of preferments into the final dough. Like you, after much experimentation he got good crust flavors and textures but came up short in the crust coloration department. He was using some 00 flour as part of his flour blend (about one-quarter of it with the rest being a high-gluten flour), and he baked primarily in a steel pan, so there were those differences. He was already using a lot of honey, without much success in generating the desired crust color. He eventually tried using more honey, along with sugar, dried dairy whey and diastatic malt, in separate experiments, all with little improvement in the crust coloration. What I took away from his experiments is that if the "window" between the time the preferment (the first one in the member's case) is made and the time that the final dough is used to make a pizza is too long, as it appeared to have been in the member's case, the greater the risk or likelihood of ending up with too little residual sugar to contribute to final crust coloration.

Based on what I believe I learned from the above experience, my first instinct was to think about a way of shortening the "window" in your case. That is why I asked you if the latest milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizza was the best of the ones you have made. If you had said that it wasn't the best iteration of the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough, I might have suggested using less milk kefir poolish or even switching from a kefir poolish to a kefir sponge with a lower activity level. The more kefir poolish that is used, as you did with your last experiment, the more of the formula flour is subjected to the prefermentation process. As a result, and given that a sponge preferment is more active and works faster because of its high hydration (100%), there is likely to be reduced levels of residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking. Also, a factor in your case is that, for some reason, the lactose in the final dough is either diminished or rendered ineffective in contributing to final crust coloration. Whether it is the "friendly bacteria" that is responsible we really don't know.

But, given that you were happiest with the last iteration of the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough, and the "window" you used, I would like to see if we can come up with a solution within that framework.

One possibility that occurs to me is to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time, while being ready to use a pizza screen if necessary to lift the pizza off of the deck floor to keep the bottom of the crust from browning too much or even burning. I think your honey level should be able to tolerate that approach and if that approach works I think you should get better top crust coloration although that might be accompanied by a somewhat dryer crust. If that approach doesn't work, then you might try using more honey, again along with a pizza screen if necessary. Next, as another approach, would be to use more diastatic malt. I can't say that I am overly optimistic about this method, although it might contribute some additional crust color.

As you know, I am not an advocate of changing more than one variable at a time in my experiments since I can't tell what affects what, which means that I don't really learn from the experience. So that suggests conducting more than one experiment to sort things out. But that is your call. Ultimately, we may find that we have to find a way of shortening the "window" in some way, if not in time in some other way that is equivalent, such as using a different preferment to slow down the overall fermentation performance.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #176 on: December 01, 2010, 04:33:13 PM »
Norma,

Your experience with the crust coloration issue reminds me of an extensive series of experiments that one of our members (who hasn't been around on this forum for quite a while) conducted and discussed at the PMQ Think Tank a few years ago. Like you, he used a natural leavening system although in his case he used a rather unorthodox and elaborate preferment system that included using a natural poolish and a natural sponge in series before incorporating the combination of preferments into the final dough. Like you, after much experimentation he got good crust flavors and textures but came up short in the crust coloration department. He was using some 00 flour as part of his flour blend (about one-quarter of it with the rest being a high-gluten flour), and he baked primarily in a steel pan, so there were those differences. He was already using a lot of honey, without much success in generating the desired crust color. He eventually tried using more honey, along with sugar, dried dairy whey and diastatic malt, in separate experiments, all with little improvement in the crust coloration. What I took away from his experiments is that if the "window" between the time the preferment (the first one in the member's case) is made and the time that the final dough is used to make a pizza is too long, as it appeared to have been in the member's case, the greater the risk or likelihood of ending up with too little residual sugar to contribute to final crust coloration.

Based on what I believe I learned from the above experience, my first instinct was to think about a way of shortening the "window" in your case. That is why I asked you if the latest milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizza was the best of the ones you have made. If you had said that it wasn't the best iteration of the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough, I might have suggested using less milk kefir poolish or even switching from a kefir poolish to a kefir sponge with a lower activity level. The more kefir poolish that is used, as you did with your last experiment, the more of the formula flour is subjected to the prefermentation process. As a result, and given that a sponge preferment is more active and works faster because of its high hydration (100%), there is likely to be reduced levels of residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking. Also, a factor in your case is that, for some reason, the lactose in the final dough is either diminished or rendered ineffective in contributing to final crust coloration. Whether it is the "friendly bacteria" that is responsible we really don't know.

But, given that you were happiest with the last iteration of the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough, and the "window" you used, I would like to see if we can come up with a solution within that framework.

One possibility that occurs to me is to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time, while being ready to use a pizza screen if necessary to lift the pizza off of the deck floor to keep the bottom of the crust from browning too much or even burning. I think your honey level should be able to tolerate that approach and if that approach works I think you should get better top crust coloration although that might be accompanied by a somewhat dryer crust. If that approach doesn't work, then you might try using more honey, again along with a pizza screen if necessary. Next, as another approach, would be to use more diastatic malt. I can't say that I am overly optimistic about this method, although it might contribute some additional crust color.

As you know, I am not an advocate of changing more than one variable at a time in my experiments since I can't tell what affects what, which means that I don't really learn from the experience. So that suggests conducting more than one experiment to sort things out. But that is your call. Ultimately, we may find that we have to find a way of shortening the "window" in some way, if not in time in some other way that is equivalent, such as using a different preferment to slow down the overall fermentation performance.

Peter




Peter,

Thanks for posting about the other member and all what he went though in his experiments to get better crust coloration.  He really did go though a lot of experiments to try and achieve a good crust coloration. 

I have been thinking about too little residual being left for contribution to crust coloration. I really didnít think that is what contributed to the coloration issue, because the dough didnít feel slack or overfermented.   I wondered if I should do a test in my home oven, with the lower bake temperatures and slower bake times, to see if the coloration issues are my higher bake temperatures at market and shorter bakes times.  That test should at least tell if there is really the issue of too little residual sugar left.  I could keep the same protocol as I did last and start the dough tomorrow and bake the pie on Monday. I donít believe in changing more than one variable at one time either, but have done so in the past.  Do you think changing the variable to my home oven will then produce one more variable, if I keep everything else the same?

If lowering the bake temperature and times doesnít work, I could try another approach.  I still have no idea what the milk kefir is doing in this dough, but have seen the same issues when using the Ischia starter.  When I used the Ischia starter in bakes in Steveís WFO, there were no coloration issues.  That leads me to believe it might have to do with bake temperatures and times, how any dough formula browns.  Even my Preferment Lehmann dough formula doesnít always brown right in my oven at market.  I still need to figure that out.  When using the Ischia starter I got better crust coloration in my BBQ grill at reply 26 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108455.html#msg108455 

Steve (Ev) also had problems with crust coloration of his starter doughs baked in my deck oven at market.

I have the extra dough ball, made on Friday in the refrigerator. That dough ball doesnít look like it is fermenting much if at all. 

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #177 on: December 01, 2010, 05:17:46 PM »
Norma,

It is hard to completely deplete a dough of all sugar, so it becomes more of a matter of how much sugar is left to contribute to final crust coloration. Also, the dough does not have to be slack or overfermented. With some sugar in the dough, there can be some color through caramelization but the Maillard reactions require reducing sugars and certain amino acids to create more color.

The reason I suggested the longer bake at lower temperature at market was to try to eliminate your deck oven as a factor in the reduced crust coloration you experienced. Using your home oven to test this out as you suggested would be a change in a variable, since your home oven is not the same as your oven at market, but I think it may be as good an approach as any to see if there is enough residual sugar in your dough. Since you indicated that you were having coloration problems with the Ischia starter/preferment at market and that Ev (Steve) also had similar experiences with his dough in your oven at market, that would seem to point to your oven at market as a possible factor in the reduced crust coloration.

If you use your home oven to test the residual sugar issue, you will want to keep everything else as close as possible to what you do at market. Any changes in the dough formulation or fermentation protocol will be a change in variables that might teach us something but not fully answer the fundamental question.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #178 on: December 01, 2010, 05:38:44 PM »
Peter,

I will think it over tonight, whether I want to either lower my oven temperature at market or bake at home.  I guess the best test would be to lower the oven temperature at market for a longer bake.  I know I want to many things at once, but I donít want to lose the moisture I had in the rim yesterday.

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #179 on: December 04, 2010, 08:39:02 AM »
I made a milk kefir poolish yesterday for the Lehmann dough.  This is the picture of how the dough ball looks, after the milk kefir poolish was incorporated into the Lehmann dough. Also the next two pictures are of the dough ball that has been cold fermenting since last Friday.  It has fermented some, but right now looks like it might be able to cold ferment for at least another week.

I decided on turning my oven down on Tuesday, to see if a lower bake temperature, will make the crust brown more.

I was doing some more research on milk kefir recently and looked under Google blogs and it seems like milk kefir is even more complex than I thought before.  Under Google blogs I put in words and strings of words with milk kefir, and found some blogs that said milk kefir can be kept indefinitely in the refrigerator and also how complex milk kefir grains are.  I also found many recipes for milk kefir breads. From these searches I also saw again how healthy milk kefir is suppose to be.

Norma
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