Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough

[norma427]

This is the formula for 1 dough ball, for my next attempt.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Did you use honey again thist time instead of sugar?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Did you use honey again thist time instead of sugar?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did use honey again instead of sugar.  Should I have figured out the formula differently?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Yes, I did use honey again instead of sugar.  Should I have figured out the formula differently?

Norma,

If you used weight as you did before, you should be fine. 4.19g/0.15 oz of honey comes to a bit under 5/8 t.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If you used weight as you did before, you should be fine. 4.19g/0.15 oz of honey comes to a bit under 5/8 t.

Peter

Peter,

I did put into the preferment calculator the same percentage of honey, I used last week.   I didn't want to change anymore variables except the oven temperature.

Norma

[norma427]

I lowered my deck oven temperature today to bake this milk kefir poolsih dough, with honey. The oven was lowered to 455 degrees F.  I took the temperature on the deck in different places with my IR gun.  My oven temperatures before this bake were around 566 degrees F. 

The pizza did brown a little bit better and still retained moisture in the crust.  Now since trying a really low bake temperature I also have more unanswered ideas.  I wonder how such a low bake temperature can also have a good oven spring.  I never would have thought this dough would have good oven spring.  The taste of this pie was good, but not as good as when using Paul’s Manitoba flour with a much higher hydration.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[norma427]

This is just a report to show how the milk kefir grains are growing and how the dough ball that has been cold fermenting for 14 days looks. 

The milk kefir grains keep growing by the week and I keep feeding them different amounts of milk to see what happens.  I did leave the milk kefir grains in the same milk for a week and drank some last evening.  It still makes me wonder what makes these milk kefir grains tick.  Whether I drink the milk kefir after 2 days or a week, it tastes the same.  It doesn’t seem to become more tart or sour.  I don’t know how these milk kefir grains keep milk from souring, but find that interesting.  I am still feeding the milk kefir grains whole milk, because it is cheaper.

The dough ball that has been cold fermenting for 14 days looks almost like it is in suspended animation.  I had put that dough ball right into the refrigerator, after mixing and balling.  It doesn’t seem to be developing many more bubbles on the bottom and there isn’t bubbling on the top of the dough ball.  Also there are no dark specks so far on the dough ball.  I have the dough ball in a sealed container, with no holes in the lid.  The only time I expose it to air, is when I check on it from day to day.  I don’t know at this time what this experiment with the milk kefir will tell me, or if this dough ball will make a better flavor in the crust of a finished pizza.

Pictures below

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

You recently mentioned in Reply 680 at the Lehmann preferment thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg119554.html#msg119554 that you were thinking of giving "the naturally leavened doughs a break for a couple of weeks". That comment got me to thinking about the effects on crust coloration of of the naturally-leavened milk kefir (and Ischia) poolish versions of the basic Lehmann dough formulation you have been using.

To frame the issue, I went back to the Lehmann preferment thread where we first started to talk about taking pH readings. As best I can tell, we started talking about pH readings fairly late in the game in the Lehmann preferment thread, at Reply 626 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg112151.html#msg112151. By comparison, we have been talking about pH readings in this thread from about its beginning. Since you were having fewer problems with crust coloration with your Lehmann preferment doughs, I tried to compare the pH readings for those doughs against the readings you got with your milk kefir poolish Lehmann doughs. What I observed as a trend is that the pH readings for the milk kefir poolish Lehmann doughs were noticeably lower than the values that I saw for the Lehmann preferment doughs. For example, the range of values for the milk kefir Lehmann doughs were around 4.44-5.42 whereas the pH values for the Lehmann preferment doughs were around 5.40-5.75. Moreover, and you can correct me on this if I am wrong, but it seems that the more milk kefir poolish you used in relation to the total formula flour weight, the lower the pH values became.

The above again raises the specter of the relationship of pH to crust coloration, as reflected by the residual sugars and the like. You might recall that there have been several discussions on this matter, with several posts directed to the subject, including those at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9635.msg83546/topicseen.html#msg83546 and at Reply 155 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg111250/topicseen.html#msg111250. In your case, your pizzas did not seem to suffer from insufficient oven spring that Prof. Calvel warned us about but, unlike Prof. Calvel who talked about the subject in the context of baking bread, you have been baking your pizzas at oven temperatures considerably higher than what would be used to bake bread.

As I pondered the above matter, I also recalled that Tom Lehmann mentioned somewhere the effects of large amounts of organic acids on crust coloration through caramelization (and, I assume, the Maillard reactions). It also seemed to me that he recommended using dried dairy whey or non-fat dry milk powder in order to get better crust coloration. It took me a while to track down where he addressed the matter but I was able to find it at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2001spring/lehmann.php#1. Note, in particular, Tom's comments on the buffering effects of calcium on the acids and this effect on crust coloration. Tom also talks further about the use of dairy whey in the third question at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006april-may/lehmann.php#3. We have talked about using dried dairy whey before but deferred actual use until we saw how other possible solutions panned out, including using diastatic malt, more sugar, honey, etc.

You might want to consider trying either dried dairy whey or dry nonfat milk powder to see if they offset some of the acid components produced by your currently high level of usage of the milk kefir poolish. No doubt your milk kefir poolish have been working well to produce good crust flavors and textures but, at the same time, they may be producing too many acids leading to low pH readings and, possibly, problems with crust coloration. If using dried dairy whey or dry milk powder do not improve matters, then that might mean having to take a fresh look at your basic milk kefir poolish/dough regimen to see if it can be improved. I previously mentioned going to a sponge approach, which I believe would slow down the overall fermentation process.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I did mention in the preferment Lehmann thread that I was going to give naturally leavened doughs a break for a few weeks.  I have been pondering over what to try next.  I did mix a poolish for the milk kefir bagel dough yesterday and let is rise and bubble and then put it into the refrigerator until tomorrow, when I will mix a dough.  I want to try a higher hydration with the milk keifr bagel dough. It seems when the milk kefir poolish is then put into the refrigerator it almost stops the ferment process, when using milk keifr.  I did this experiment one time before, but didn’t report what I did.  I wanted to learn more what is happening. 

You are right that the pH readings for the preferment Lehmann dough have always been higher, when the dough is ready to be baked.  They also are higher to being with, if I remember right. 

I don’t think I posted the pH reading over the last two weeks for the doughs made with the milk kefir, but I did note them on paper.  The last dough was 4.69 before the bake.  I didn’t know if you were interested in me keeping the pH numbers anymore.   I do believe the pH numbers were lower when more milk kefir was used in relation to the flour weight. 

I really don’t think there is complete sugar depletion, but am beginning to believe it is either my deck oven or might be all the biological activity that goes on in the milk kefir doughs with the poolish.  I don’t know if I would change the protocol of not bulk fermenting as long and then let the bulk ferment for the end, if that would change my crust coloration or not.  There are too many variables that can go into how the dough is first bulk fermented, then cold fermented, then left to warm-up in different ambient temperatures.  Any dough with milk kefir needs to be bulk fermented either in the beginning or end for a long while. 

I can understand from all of your experiments that you understand all this better than I do.  I believe all what you post and what Professor Calvel has wrote in his articles. Even when I used lower amounts of poolish in relation to the flour, my crusts didn’t brown enough. What residual sugars don’t you think is left in this milk kefir poolish dough? Would you think it would be the very complex sugars, which would represent the most of the flour and since I am using more flour in the poolish, there is more sugar depletion? Do you think that is what is affecting crust coloration, in all my milk kefir poolish doughs?

As Tom Lehmann posted in the link you referenced at PMTT, he seems to think that after 6-8 hrs. of active fermentation then there can be depletion of sugars and during cold fermentation some yeast is being metabolized and acids formed as yeast byproducts have an inhibiting effect upon the rate of caramelization.  Tom Lehmann also thinks either dairy whey or non-fat dry milk powder would be the best way to help crust coloration.

What Tom Lehmann says about old dough and if there is too much acidification in the old dough then, it might be so acidic that it inhibits the browning of the finished crusts.

I know I can purchase non-fat dry milk powder, but where do I find dairy whey?  If I decide to use either of these, at what percent do you recommend?  Do you think I should try either of these options before trying a sponge?

Thanks for taking the time to go over my crust coloration problems when using a natural leaving system.  I don’t know if we ever will be able to get this straightened out.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Just to refresh my memory and to be sure that we are on the same wavelength, can you outline the fermentation protocol you are now using?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Just to refresh my memory and to be sure that we are on the same wavelength, can you outline the fermentation protocol you are now using?

Peter

Peter,

I first let the milk kefir poolish ferment in the oven with the light on.  It takes about 3 hrs. for the milk kefir poolish to be ready to be mixed into the final dough.  After the final dough is mixed, I balled the dough, then reballed after about an hour.  The dough seems to relax more and the dough ball gets a smoother appearance, then I bulk ferment for at least 2 to 3  hrs, all depending on how warm my kitchen ambient temperatures are.  I watch the bottom of the dough to see how it is fermenting.  The dough ball in then cold fermented for 4 days. I leave the dough ball at ambient temperature at market (which can vary), until I think it looks ready to bake into a pizza.  That can be anywhere from 2 to 3 more hours.  If you have any other questions, just ask.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Since you liked the results using the higher levels of the milk kefir poolish so much, my thinking was that it would be nice to keep those high levels and try to solve the coloration problems in some other way that would allow us to defer addressing any issues that are uniquely related to the milk kefir poolish itself. Hence, the idea of using either dry nonfat milk powder or dried dairy whey. If those ingredients don't do the trick, then that would suggest either your milk kefir poolish/dough or possibly your oven as the next places to put under the magnifying glass.

Tom Lehmann would say to use high-heat baker's grades of non-fat milk powder and dried dairy whey. Where you live, it seems that you have many more places to find ingredients than where I live. So, you might find either or both of the above ingredients in places that sell things in bulk bins or in small bags. Online sources for dry milk powders include King Arthur (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-special-dry-milk-16-oz), Barry Farm (http://www.barryfarm.com/milk.htm), Bob's Red Mill (http://www.bobsredmill.com/non-fat-dry-milk_powder.html) and Prepared Pantry (http://www.preparedpantry.com/buttermilk-dry-milk-cheese-dairy-products.aspx). Some time ago, I checked with Bob's Red Mill, on two separate occasions, and was told both times that their dry milk powder was baker's grade. You might be able to get away with using the supermarket Carnation's dry milk powder or another comparable brand, but my recollection is that I called Carnation and was told that their product is not baker's grade. For the quantity that you might use to make a single or a few dough balls, that might not matter, as member dms once told us, but, given a choice, I would rather go with the baker's grade form. 

Barry Farm also sells the dried dairy whey (see the link referenced above) as does Bob's Red Mill (http://www.bobsredmill.com/sweet-dairy-whey-mtx1293.html).

In terms of amounts of dry non-fat milk powder or dried dairy whey to use, in both cases I think I would go with about 4%, by weight of flour. However, you might also keep in mind that using either of these products is likely to result in a change in dough texture and possibly the finished crust. I am just hoping that the effects will not subtract from the overall quality of your pizzas. You may also find a need to adjust the formula hydration to compensate for the dryness of the non-fat dry milk powder and dairy whey.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for referencing all the kinds of baker’s grades of buttermilk dried milk, dairy whey powder, sweet dairy whey, and regular nonfat dry milk.  We do have many home bakers in our area, which are Amish and Mennonite.  I guess that is why there are more products to do with baking in our area.  I will look in my local country store and also ask around where I might be able to purchase one of these products.  I never looked for any of this products before, so they might have been right in front of my eyes and I could have missed them.

Thanks for telling me the weight to use in relation to the flour for either dry non-fat milk powder or dried dairy.  I will note if there are any changes in the texture or if more water is needed in the formula.

I don’t know if this will help with the browning issue, but I am willing to give it a try.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I saw your post at Reply 44 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg120051.html#msg120051 but did not want to comment there and change the direction of that thread from the Pomodoro quest to another thread on crust coloration issues with a naturally-leavened dough.

I sensed your frustration and thought that it might be useful to step back for a moment and revisit, by way of summary, what you have been doing with your milk kefir poolish and dough.

First, what you have been doing with your milk kefir is quite extraordinary. I am not aware of anyone who is using milk kefir commercially or professionally to make pizzas based on using a milk kefir as a natural leavening system. To the best of my knowledge, you and PizzaPolice are the only members on the forum who even have milk kefirs. And, from what I have read, a milk kefir is different than other natural cultures, such as your Ischia culture. That alone puts you in uncharted territory.

Second, you have been using your milk kefir in a poolish format. At 100% hydration, poolish is the most aggressive and fastest acting preferment we know of (unless you increase the hydration above 100%). Moreover, you have been using your milk kefir poolish at very high levels of formula flour and water, not up to 5% of the formula water as Marco (pizzanapoletana) and others have used for their naturally-leavened ambient temperature fermented doughs.

Third, you have been trying to achieve a dough formulation and protocol to fit a one-day-a-week schedule where you can start the process on Friday and use the final dough to make pizzas on the following Tuesday. That means that your milk kefir has to be maintained on a regular basis so that it is primed and ready to go to make a poolish on Friday that will successfully accomplish its purpose by the following Tuesday. 

Finally, you are using a fermentation process and protocol that in part is at the mercy of the prevailing weather and temperature conditions. You are using your cooler/deli case to cold ferment the dough but you are not controlling the temperature of the milk kefir or poolish or the final dough during the temper period.

Under the circumstances, I can't say that I am all that surprised that you have encountered some problems with your milk kefir dough making and management protocol. To date, what we have done is to try to address the problem of crust coloration with a band-aid approach in which we have used palliatives that have addressed symptoms of a possible malady rather than the malady itself. These palliatives have included using diastatic malt, sugar, honey, and adjusting bake times and temperatures. I recently gave you two more out of my medical kit--dry non-fat milk powder and dried dairy whey. They may work or they may not. However, if they don't work, testing them will have served a useful purpose because we will have ruled out two more possible solutions. That would leave us with the basic process itself and possibly the oven. But before turning our attention to those possibilities, I would prefer to see the results that you get using the dry milk powder or dairy whey.

I thought to suggest that you pose your coloration dilemma to Tom Lehmann. However, he has not been around the PMQ Think Tank forum much these days and his answers tend to be one-liners since he does not have the kind of time to address problems the way we handle them on this forum. And even if we had Tom, Didier Rosada and Prof. Calvel all in the room at the same time, I am not sure that they would be able to give you an easy solution to your crust coloration problem in the specific context of a framework that calls for using a natural milk kefir leavening system to make pizza dough over a five day period to be used to make pizza one day a week.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I am not really feeling frustrated.  I am always ready to learn something new about dough, or in this case, how a milk kefir poolish can affect this dough.  I do like to experiment, so I don’t mind how the progression of using milk kefir poolish and my crust coloration issues, aren’t getting the results I want right now.  I don’t know at this time if I ever will be able to use milk kefir in a dough for market, but feel there could be possibilities for using milk kefir.  I have watched how the milk kefir grains do ferment and see I can use the milk kefir anywhere from 1 day to one week and the milk kefir doesn’t see to change in tastes or how it affects a poolish.  That is why I think a milk kefir poolish might be able to be used at market.  I can even refrigerate the milk kefir and it doesn’t seem to change.  I have read in different blogs about milk kefir and some people say milk kefir can be kept indefinitely in the refrigerator.  It also doesn’t seem to spoil when left out for many days.  These are just some reasons I find milk kefir interesting. 

I know I am in uncharted territory, unless other people haven’t documented what they have done with milk kefir used as a leavening agent.  Recently I have changed my internet browser to Google Chrome and by using this internet access, I can easily look at other websites and Google Chrome changes the translations easily by just clicking translate whatever article I want to read to English.  It is then easy to be able to read anything in another language.  I have read some Turkish blogs about milk kefir and what I found out from them were interesting to me.  It now seems to me many Turkish and other Russian people do use milk kefir for a leavening agent.  I haven’t found where they used it commercially, but I am going to keep searching. 

I know I am using the milk kefir poolish at a high levels of formula flour and water.  I don’t know what to do about do about controlling the temperature of the milk kefir, poolish, or final dough at this time.  I will see if other experiments will help me understand this more.

I appreciate you helping me along on this journey, while using milk kefir.  If dry non-fat milk powder or dried dairy whey, from your medical kit don’t work, that is okay with me.  At least I know I have tried them. 

Do you want me to PM Tom Lehmann with my questions about coloration when using the milk kefir poolish.  I know he is a very busy man and has answered many of my other questions.  I don’t know if he knows of anyone that has used milk kefir as a leavening agent.  When I was trying to find articles about Professor Calvel, I saw there are some articles that Professor Calvel wrote that are somewhere in the archives at AIB, but they are in French.  I might try to access those articles if I can, and see if anything in those articles can be translated.  I wonder if Tom Lehmann has access to those articles.

I also agree that even if we had Tom, Didier Rosada and Prof. Calvel all in the room at the same time, we might not be able to find out answers when using milk kefir.

Thanks again for your help. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you want me to PM Tom Lehmann with my questions about coloration when using the milk kefir poolish.  I know he is a very busy man and has answered many of my other questions.

Norma,

I would be curious to hear Tom's advice and comments. It is unlikely that he will read this thread to see what you have done to date but if you lay out the process in a general way with timelines, and you tell him in general what measures you have already taken, such as using sugar, honey, diastatic malt, lower oven temperature, etc., he might be able to zero in on a possible solution.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I would be curious to hear Tom's advice and comments. It is unlikely that he will read this thread to see what you have done to date but if you lay out the process in a general way with timelines, and you tell him in general what measures you have already taken, such as using sugar, honey, diastatic malt, lower oven temperature, etc., he might be able to zero in on a possible solution.

Peter

Peter,

I will PM Tom Lehmann later today and try to include what I have done so far with the milk kefir.  I will also ask him if there is some way we can access the articles from Professor Calvel.  It would be interesting to see if anything is in those articles.  I will also put the link in to the blog I am working on, so if he wants to see some of the pictures of the pizzas I have made so far with the milk kefir, he can.

I know Tom Lehmann is very busy, so I will wait and see if he responds.

Norma

[norma427]

I went to our local Country Store this afternoon to see if they carried any dairy whey or non-fat dry milk.  I saw on the shelves they carried non-fat dry milk and sweet cream buttermilk.  I asked the man that orders their bulk ingredients if they carried dairy whey.  He said no they didn’t carry dairy whey.  I asked him what was the brand of sweet cream buttermilk and non-fat dry milk that I saw.  He checked and said it was purchased bulk from Dutch Valley.  I thought either of these products probably are baker’s grade, but if you want me to call Dutch Valley in the next few days I will. 
sweet cream buttermilk
http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/543786de-10b1-4fd7-8518-48430e69078b
non-fat dry milk
http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/a1b5ae9f-a671-4aa1-b42b-c5d45e6e9b00

If either of these products are baker’s grade, which one do you think I should try first?

I also got a nice Christmas present from The Cortopassi Family at  Stanislaus today. I probably will hang the hand painted plaque at market.

Pictures below of non-fat dry milk and sweet cream buttermilk and present from the Cortopassi Family.

Norma