Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 42479 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #225 on: December 22, 2010, 09:23:48 PM »
I called Cheryl again this morning, but only got her voice mail.  I did leave a message to call me back if she found out any information from Dutch Valley or about me getting samples of bakerís grade dried dairy whey or dried non-fat milk powder.  I guess with the holiday approaching, Cheryl might be busy. 

I wonder now if I should try scalding the non-fat milk powder I got from the Country Store, until I see if I can get some bakerís grade products.

I am also curious to know if anyone any where around the world has tried using milk kefir in a long fermented dough like I did.  I tried searching the web, but couldnít find any information of someone using milk kefir for a long cold ferment in bread or pizza.

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #226 on: December 23, 2010, 09:17:10 AM »
If anyone is interested this is a picture of how my milk kefir grains are growing.  This picture was taken last evening after the milk kefir grains were taken out of the milk kefir and then placed into a clear container and fed again.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #227 on: December 30, 2010, 11:54:24 AM »
This post is to note that I called Cheryl again this morning and spoke to her to see if she inquired if Dutch Valley carried bakerís grade dairy whey.  Cheryl said she had checked with Dutch Valley and they didnít carry bakerís grade dairy whey.  I then talked to Cheryl again about my problems in trying to get more crust coloration in the formula I am using with the milk keifr poolish.  I told Cheryl although the formula with milk kefir poolish is working out to get a desired taste in the crust and oven spring, I was still having problems with coloration of the crust.  She never heard of using milk kefir to leaven a dough for pizza.  Cheryl said she has to contact someone else and since they are closed for the rest of this week, I probably would get a sample of 1 lb. bakerís grade of dairy whey sent out to me next week sometime.  I will post when a receive the sample of dairy whey.

When I do obtain some dairy whey, since Tom Lehmann suggested to add dairy whey in the 8-10% range to the formula, I wonder if that is where I should begin.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #228 on: December 30, 2010, 01:38:09 PM »
When I do obtain some dairy whey, since Tom Lehmann suggested to add dairy whey in the 8-10% range to the formula, I wonder if that is where I should begin.

Norma,

I think I would tend to go with around 4% as we discussed before Tom voiced his opinion. Dried dairy whey can affect the crust and crumb structure so it might be better to try to keep that at a minimum by going lower on the whey. If that doesn't do the trick, or do it sufficiently, then maybe the amount of whey can be increased to something closer to what Tom recommended.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #229 on: December 30, 2010, 04:14:25 PM »
Norma,

I think I would tend to go with around 4% as we discussed before Tom voiced his opinion. Dried dairy whey can affect the crust and crumb structure so it might be better to try to keep that at a minimum by going lower on the whey. If that doesn't do the trick, or do it sufficiently, then maybe the amount of whey can be increased to something closer to what Tom recommended.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise about the percent of dried dairy whey to try.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #230 on: January 05, 2011, 03:03:06 PM »
I was pleasantly surprised this afternoon to receive a shipment from Cheryl.  The samples included both the high heat Non-Fat Dry Milk and Diary Whey.  I didnít expect to receive both samples.  These are the papers that came with the samples and pictures of the samples. 

Both of the samples do feel gritty.  I now wonder which sample to try first.  I would like to start another experiment on Friday, using one of these samples to see if I can get better coloration in the crust when using the higher amounts of milk kefir poolish.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #231 on: January 05, 2011, 03:04:10 PM »
Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #232 on: January 05, 2011, 03:04:51 PM »
Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #233 on: January 07, 2011, 09:21:15 AM »
Peter,

I have a question to ask you before I start on the new experiment using dairy whey, to see if I can get better crust coloration using dairy whey, in this milk kefir Lehmann dough. I used the preferment calculating tool, to come up with a new formula.  I have increased the thickness factor and also the hydration, because in my normal preferment Lehmann dough I have been adding more water and have also increased the thickness factor, by just scaling my dough balls at a higher weight.  I have been adding more water to each batch of dough I make at market, because I now like a higher hydration dough, but since the formula for the preferment Lehmann dough was too hard to figure out without a calculator, the adding water additional water to the final mix seems to be working for me.

I now wonder since the preferment calculating tool doesnít have any entry for dairy whey, how do I calculate the addition of 4% dairy whey?  Do I do the calculation by the total amount of flour or do I do the calculation for dairy whey of the flour in the final dough mix?

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #234 on: January 07, 2011, 09:54:13 AM »
Norma,

Can you show me the dough formulation you want to use, using the preferment dough calculating tool but without the dried dairy whey? Also, is there anything on the packaging materials for the Hormel dried dairy whey that relates weight to volume?

In the final analysis, you want the whey to be used as a percent of total formula flour.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #235 on: January 07, 2011, 10:36:54 AM »
Norma,

Can you show me the dough formulation you want to use, using the preferment dough calculating tool but without the dried dairy whey? Also, is there anything on the packaging materials for the Hormel dried dairy whey that relates weight to volume?

In the final analysis, you want the whey to be used as a percent of total formula flour.

Peter

Peter,

This is the dough formula I want to use for the next attempt.  The only articles with the packaging materials that came with the dairy whey, are what I posted before.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #236 on: January 07, 2011, 12:43:39 PM »
Norma,

I used one of my little tricks in using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I simply used the Sugar box to enter the 4% dried dairy value. That will product the correct amount of dried dairy whey to use by weight but the volume measurements will be wrong because the volume conversions for sugar are different than for dried dairy whey. That is why I asked you if the Hormel data included any weight/volume conversion. But, that aside, I have set forth below what the final dough formulation should look like based on the information you provided. You will see that I changed some of the wording of the dough formulation to conform to your particular situation, and I crossed out the volume data for the sugar entry. That means that you will have to weigh out the dried dairy whey.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2%):
Oil (1%):
Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey (4%):
Total (170.2%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Morton's Kosher Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey:
Total:

286.28 g  |  10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs
180.36 g  |  6.36 oz | 0.4 lbs
6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.11165
 
 
85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs
85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs
171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs

 
200.4 g | 7.07 oz | 0.44 lbs
94.47 g | 3.33 oz | 0.21 lbs
6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs
2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs  | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs  | TF = 0.11165
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.11; poolish preferment represents 60% of the Total Formula Flour, and constitutes 50% water; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; target finished dough weight = 16.93oz/480.06g

Now that you can see how I used the preferment dough calculating tool to incorporate the dried dairy whey, you should be able to use the same trick in your future experiments, including using the Hormel dry milk powder should you end up doing an experiment with that product also.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #237 on: January 07, 2011, 04:42:38 PM »
Norma,

I used one of my little tricks in using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I simply used the Sugar box to enter the 4% dried dairy value. That will product the correct amount of dried dairy whey to use by weight but the volume measurements will be wrong because the volume conversions for sugar are different than for dried dairy whey. That is why I asked you if the Hormel data included any weight/volume conversion. But, that aside, I have set forth below what the final dough formulation should look like based on the information you provided. You will see that I changed some of the wording of the dough formulation to conform to your particular situation, and I crossed out the volume data for the sugar entry. That means that you will have to weigh out the dried dairy whey.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2%):
Oil (1%):
Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey (4%):
Total (170.2%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Morton's Kosher Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey:
Total:

286.28 g  |  10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs
180.36 g  |  6.36 oz | 0.4 lbs
6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.11165
 
 
85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs
85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs
171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs

 
200.4 g | 7.07 oz | 0.44 lbs
94.47 g | 3.33 oz | 0.21 lbs
6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs
2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs  | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs  | TF = 0.11165
Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.11; poolish preferment represents 60% of the Total Formula Flour, and constitutes 50% water; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; target finished dough weight = 16.93oz/480.06g

Now that you can see how I used the preferment dough calculating tool to incorporate the dried dairy whey, you should be able to use the same trick in your future experiments, including using the Hormel dry milk powder should you end up doing an experiment with that product also.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for using one of your tricks in helping me understand how to use the preferment calculating tool to use dairy whey or dry milk powder if I need it.  I will know how to proceed from now on.  I appreciate you setting-forth the formula.

Hopefully the dairy whey will make some kind of improvement in the coloration of the crust.

I wanted to note in this post that my milk kefir grains are producing too much milk kefir. I donít know what to do with the milk kefir anymore.  I did give some to plants to see what will happen to them.  I now am going to try and dry some more of the milk kefir grains, to either refrigerate or freeze.  This is a picture of the milk kefir grains, that I am deciding to do something else with.  Since the milk kefir grains are getting larger and I guess splitting, the milk kefir is ready in less than 1/2 half day.  I also wanted to note in this post that the milk kefir poolish I am using in the Sicilian thread that was over 4 weeks old, is fermenting the dough slower than fresh milk kefir I have used in a poolish before.  My guess now is that using fresh milk kefir is better, unless I get a better taste in the crust from a longer fermentation time.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #238 on: January 08, 2011, 08:58:12 AM »
I didnít think about it yesterday, to take the pH of the dough, when I made this milk kefir dough with added dairy whey.  I removed the dough from the refrigerator this morning and now have taken the pH.  The pH is 5.47.  I donít know if there will be any difference in the pH of this dough over the next few days, than my other doughs without dairy whey.

Picture of pH reading this morning.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #239 on: January 09, 2011, 09:54:39 PM »
This post is to note this evening the pH of the milk kefir dough mixed on Friday is 5.26.

Hopefully Tuesday I will get to try out this dough to see if there is better crust coloration, since adding dairy whey.  It is supposed to start snowing on Tuesday, so I am not sure at this time if I will need to freeze this dough or be able to bake this dough into a pizza.

Since I didn't use any honey in this dough, it should tell if dairy whey will brown the crust better.

Norma

« Last Edit: January 09, 2011, 09:58:39 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #240 on: January 10, 2011, 09:45:18 PM »
This post is to note that the pH of the milk kefir dough tonight is 5.24.  That sounds good to me, but the only bad news is my water heater broke on Saturday evening.  :(  I had called my plumber this morning and he can only come sometime tomorrow or not until Thursday or later.  Now I wonít be able to go to market and bake this milk kefir dough with the added dairy whey into a pizza.   :o

I might try this dough in my home oven tomorrow.  I donít know if that will tell me if I can get better crust coloration with adding dairy whey or not.

I am getting tired of heating water though, so I guess another experiment with using dairy whey will be in order for this coming Friday.  :-D

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #241 on: January 11, 2011, 08:05:01 PM »
I guess I couldnít wait another week to try this Lehmann milk kefir dough with the added dairy whey.  I decided this morning to try and bake the dough in my home oven.  The dough ball sat out at ambient room temperatures of 72 degrees F for 5 hrs.  The dough ball seemed a little drier than my other dough balls at market had before, even with this increase in a couple of percent in hydration with this dough ball. The dough ball was a little harder to open than the dough balls I had opened at market before. I donít know why the dough felt drier, when it had felt wetter after mixing and forming the dough ball.

I bake this pizza in my home oven.  I was surprised to see how well the dough rose and also the crust did brown more than in my deck oven.  I donít know if it is the added dairy whey or not, that added to the crust coloration. 

The pH of this dough ball right before the bake was 5.22.

I have been hungry for another Buffalo Chicken Pizza with Frankís Hot Sauce, so since I had the time today, I did make a Buffalo Chicken Pizza.  I used Kenís Ranch Sauce for the bottom base, spread milk white cheddar on top of the Ranch Sauce and then added the Buffalo chicken.  The pie then was dressed with Blue Cheese Crumbles.  After the pie was baked I added fresh cut celery to the finished baked pie.  The added celery at the end was a good addition, in my opinion, because it gave this pizza a nice crunch when taking a bite.

What surprised me most about this crust is that it tasted even better than all the other milk kefir Lehmann pizzas I have attempted at market.  There was a slight crisp on the bottom and rim and a nice moistness inside the rim.  I never though I could get a crust that tasted this well out of my home oven.

Pictures below

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #242 on: January 11, 2011, 08:09:32 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #243 on: January 11, 2011, 08:12:14 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #244 on: January 11, 2011, 08:16:36 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #245 on: January 11, 2011, 08:33:38 PM »
Norma,

You weren't kidding about the bubbles  :-D.

It will be interesting to see how a similar pizza bakes up in your oven at market. Did you detect a textural difference in the crust and crumb from using the dried dairy whey? In my experiments with dried dairy whey, I noted a textural difference, to the point where it seemed to disguise the identity of the underlying flour, especially 00 flour.

Do you recall how much dried dairy whey you used on a volume basis? I used the conversion factor for the bakers grade dried dairy whey that is in the list of ingredients for the expanded dough calculating tool and I got almost one tablespoon for 0.40 ounces. I don't know what the absorption qualities of the whey are but, as a dry ingredient, maybe it lowered the formula hydration just enough to make the dough drier.

Maybe sometime you can try experimenting with the whey for your preferment Lehmann dough that you are now using at market to see if it adds or detracts from your current results.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #246 on: January 11, 2011, 09:10:11 PM »
Norma,

You weren't kidding about the bubbles  :-D.

It will be interesting to see how a similar pizza bakes up in your oven at market. Did you detect a textural difference in the crust and crumb from using the dried dairy whey? In my experiments with dried dairy whey, I noted a textural difference, to the point where it seemed to disguise the identity of the underlying flour, especially 00 flour.

Do you recall how much dried dairy whey you used on a volume basis? I used the conversion factor for the bakers grade dried dairy whey that is in the list of ingredients for the expanded dough calculating tool and I got almost one tablespoon for 0.40 ounces. I don't know what the absorption qualities of the whey are but, as a dry ingredient, maybe it lowered the formula hydration just enough to make the dough drier.

Maybe sometime you can try experimenting with the whey for your preferment Lehmann dough that you are now using at market to see if it adds or detracts from your current results.

Peter

Peter,

I just weighted out 11.45 grams of dairy whey on my scale to add to the flour. I didnít then used volume measurements to see how much dairy whey I used.  I can use my measuring spoons the next time to see how much dairy whey is added by volume. I also did use a autolyse of 25 minutes for this dough before I added the salt.

I also am interested in how this milk kefir dough with added dairy whey will bake in my deck oven.  I would have thought this crust wouldnít have had as much crust coloration, in my home oven.  I also must have noticed some textural differences, because this pie almost tasted like I had use Caputo flour. It was much lighter than my normal pies using KASL or even the experiments I have done in the past with the other milk kefir dough at market.  This pie almost reminded me of a pizza I had in a WFO, but without the char.  What kind of textural differences did you notice when using dried dairy whey?  I never knew you used dried dairy whey before.

At least I know that this dough with added dairy whey does have some possibilities to brown the crust, at least in my home oven.  I had bulk fermented this dough for 3 hrs. before I cold fermented it for 4 days.  The pH didnít change as much as before either, so I would guess the dairy whey does help, with something that is going on inside the dough.

This dough had felt wetter when I mixed it, but the added dairy whey must have made the dough drier.  The other doughs I had made with milk kefir, even with added malt and honey almost fell apart when opening.  This dough was much different in opening.  It almost want to spring-back some when opening the skin.

 I also would like to add some dairy whey to some of my preferment Lehmann dough I use at market to see what differences there are in crust coloration.  I now have some extra poolish sitting at market.  Do you think if the poolish is still good, I should use some of that to make two dough balls, one with added dairy whey and one with no added dairy whey?  At least I could do a few experiments on the poolish, if I find it is still good.

I was pleased in almost every way with this pizza today.  The flavor of the crust was very good, there was better coloration, and I did get bubbles in the rim.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011, 07:54:55 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #247 on: January 11, 2011, 10:23:11 PM »
Norma,

In my journey to learn as much as I could about pizza dough, I felt that at some point I had to try using dried dairy whey in a pizza dough. The idea for its use to increase crust coloration came to me from Tom Lehmann, who had written on the subject at the PMQ Think Tank and elsewhere. One of my early uses was in a basic Lehmann NY style dough where I was trying to come up with an entry level version using all-purpose flour, which is available in just about every supermarket, rather than the higher protein flours such as the Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, which is almost never found in supermarkets. One of the components of that dough, which is discussed in Reply 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669, was dried dairy whey. I also experimented with dried dairy whey in a dough formulation that I devised for a Donatos clone. But where I used dried dairy whey the most was in trying to develop crust color in a standard home oven using a dough that was based on using 00 flour. See, for example, Reply 144 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13535.html#msg13535 and Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13971.html#msg13971. You will note the use of a natural preferment along with the whey in the dough described in Reply 180.

It was in the A16 clone experiments where I started to notice the textural effects of using dried dairy whey in doughs. In particular, I found that the dough handling qualities of the doughs were improved when using the whey (which differs from your recent experience) and also that the finished crumb was more tender and softer. I also thought that the 00 flour had lost its identity because the crust and rim structure did not look the same as a crust using 00 flour without the whey. If you are interested, you can read about some of the textural effects of whey in the article at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8902.msg77167/topicseen.html#msg77167.

As far as using the dried dairy whey with your regular preferment Lehmann dough is concerned, I think that would be a useful experiment if your poolish is up to the task.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 10:34:14 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #248 on: January 11, 2011, 11:39:21 PM »
Peter,

They were interesting experiments you did.  Did you ever find out if the dry dairy whey you used was bakerís grade high heat? 

It is also interesting to me that the lactose in dairy whey does contribute to better browning (Maillard browning), as it canít be fermented by yeast.  I never knew they added so many kinds of whey added to so many products.  I didnít even realize there were so many kinds of whey, until you had referenced the chart before at: http://www.stevecarper.com/li/list_of_lactose_percentages.htm

I guess I was lucky that I cut out the honey, to really see the affects of dairy whey in my recent addition of dairy whey. I didnít notice any sweet taste to this crust.

I did call Cheryl after I received the dairy whey to confirm I did receive both products, and told her I would let her know how the samples worked out in helping crust coloration.  Do you think I should call her again to ask her how the Hormel dried dairy whey might be used in different applications on dough, or see if she has any other information on the kind of bakerís high heat dairy whey I am trying?

I wonder since I am using milk kefir in the dough if this also affects the dough handling qualities with the addition of whey. The dough handling sure were different than my past experiments with milk kefir or other natural starters, but werenít bad. Maybe after a few more experiments I will see if the dough hydration might need to go up more, when using dairy whey.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #249 on: January 12, 2011, 08:57:33 AM »
I have been taking pictures that are blurry in my recent attempts at pizzas, and I donít know why the blurry pictures are happening.  I forgot to post one picture last evening of the bottom crust. 
I also took two more pictures this morning of the pizza I made yesterday, because now there is better lighting, since it is morning.  The rim is now deflated somewhat on the cold slices, but the pictures are a little better.

Picture of bottom crust last evening and pictures this morning of leftover slices.

Norma