Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough

[norma427]

This post is to note that the pH of the milk kefir dough tonight is 5.24.  That sounds good to me, but the only bad news is my water heater broke on Saturday evening.    I had called my plumber this morning and he can only come sometime tomorrow or not until Thursday or later.  Now I won’t be able to go to market and bake this milk kefir dough with the added dairy whey into a pizza.   

I might try this dough in my home oven tomorrow.  I don’t know if that will tell me if I can get better crust coloration with adding dairy whey or not.

I am getting tired of heating water though, so I guess another experiment with using dairy whey will be in order for this coming Friday. 

Norma

[norma427]

I guess I couldn’t wait another week to try this Lehmann milk kefir dough with the added dairy whey.  I decided this morning to try and bake the dough in my home oven.  The dough ball sat out at ambient room temperatures of 72 degrees F for 5 hrs.  The dough ball seemed a little drier than my other dough balls at market had before, even with this increase in a couple of percent in hydration with this dough ball. The dough ball was a little harder to open than the dough balls I had opened at market before. I don’t know why the dough felt drier, when it had felt wetter after mixing and forming the dough ball.

I bake this pizza in my home oven.  I was surprised to see how well the dough rose and also the crust did brown more than in my deck oven.  I don’t know if it is the added dairy whey or not, that added to the crust coloration. 

The pH of this dough ball right before the bake was 5.22.

I have been hungry for another Buffalo Chicken Pizza with Frank’s Hot Sauce, so since I had the time today, I did make a Buffalo Chicken Pizza.  I used Ken’s Ranch Sauce for the bottom base, spread milk white cheddar on top of the Ranch Sauce and then added the Buffalo chicken.  The pie then was dressed with Blue Cheese Crumbles.  After the pie was baked I added fresh cut celery to the finished baked pie.  The added celery at the end was a good addition, in my opinion, because it gave this pizza a nice crunch when taking a bite.

What surprised me most about this crust is that it tasted even better than all the other milk kefir Lehmann pizzas I have attempted at market.  There was a slight crisp on the bottom and rim and a nice moistness inside the rim.  I never though I could get a crust that tasted this well out of my home oven.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

You weren't kidding about the bubbles  .

It will be interesting to see how a similar pizza bakes up in your oven at market. Did you detect a textural difference in the crust and crumb from using the dried dairy whey? In my experiments with dried dairy whey, I noted a textural difference, to the point where it seemed to disguise the identity of the underlying flour, especially 00 flour.

Do you recall how much dried dairy whey you used on a volume basis? I used the conversion factor for the bakers grade dried dairy whey that is in the list of ingredients for the expanded dough calculating tool and I got almost one tablespoon for 0.40 ounces. I don't know what the absorption qualities of the whey are but, as a dry ingredient, maybe it lowered the formula hydration just enough to make the dough drier.

Maybe sometime you can try experimenting with the whey for your preferment Lehmann dough that you are now using at market to see if it adds or detracts from your current results.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You weren't kidding about the bubbles  .

It will be interesting to see how a similar pizza bakes up in your oven at market. Did you detect a textural difference in the crust and crumb from using the dried dairy whey? In my experiments with dried dairy whey, I noted a textural difference, to the point where it seemed to disguise the identity of the underlying flour, especially 00 flour.

Do you recall how much dried dairy whey you used on a volume basis? I used the conversion factor for the bakers grade dried dairy whey that is in the list of ingredients for the expanded dough calculating tool and I got almost one tablespoon for 0.40 ounces. I don't know what the absorption qualities of the whey are but, as a dry ingredient, maybe it lowered the formula hydration just enough to make the dough drier.

Maybe sometime you can try experimenting with the whey for your preferment Lehmann dough that you are now using at market to see if it adds or detracts from your current results.

Peter

Peter,

I just weighted out 11.45 grams of dairy whey on my scale to add to the flour. I didn’t then used volume measurements to see how much dairy whey I used.  I can use my measuring spoons the next time to see how much dairy whey is added by volume. I also did use a autolyse of 25 minutes for this dough before I added the salt.

I also am interested in how this milk kefir dough with added dairy whey will bake in my deck oven.  I would have thought this crust wouldn’t have had as much crust coloration, in my home oven.  I also must have noticed some textural differences, because this pie almost tasted like I had use Caputo flour. It was much lighter than my normal pies using KASL or even the experiments I have done in the past with the other milk kefir dough at market.  This pie almost reminded me of a pizza I had in a WFO, but without the char.  What kind of textural differences did you notice when using dried dairy whey?  I never knew you used dried dairy whey before.

At least I know that this dough with added dairy whey does have some possibilities to brown the crust, at least in my home oven.  I had bulk fermented this dough for 3 hrs. before I cold fermented it for 4 days.  The pH didn’t change as much as before either, so I would guess the dairy whey does help, with something that is going on inside the dough.

This dough had felt wetter when I mixed it, but the added dairy whey must have made the dough drier.  The other doughs I had made with milk kefir, even with added malt and honey almost fell apart when opening.  This dough was much different in opening.  It almost want to spring-back some when opening the skin.

 I also would like to add some dairy whey to some of my preferment Lehmann dough I use at market to see what differences there are in crust coloration.  I now have some extra poolish sitting at market.  Do you think if the poolish is still good, I should use some of that to make two dough balls, one with added dairy whey and one with no added dairy whey?  At least I could do a few experiments on the poolish, if I find it is still good.

I was pleased in almost every way with this pizza today.  The flavor of the crust was very good, there was better coloration, and I did get bubbles in the rim.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

In my journey to learn as much as I could about pizza dough, I felt that at some point I had to try using dried dairy whey in a pizza dough. The idea for its use to increase crust coloration came to me from Tom Lehmann, who had written on the subject at the PMQ Think Tank and elsewhere. One of my early uses was in a basic Lehmann NY style dough where I was trying to come up with an entry level version using all-purpose flour, which is available in just about every supermarket, rather than the higher protein flours such as the Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour, which is almost never found in supermarkets. One of the components of that dough, which is discussed in Reply 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669, was dried dairy whey. I also experimented with dried dairy whey in a dough formulation that I devised for a Donatos clone. But where I used dried dairy whey the most was in trying to develop crust color in a standard home oven using a dough that was based on using 00 flour. See, for example, Reply 144 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13535.html#msg13535 and Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13971.html#msg13971. You will note the use of a natural preferment along with the whey in the dough described in Reply 180.

It was in the A16 clone experiments where I started to notice the textural effects of using dried dairy whey in doughs. In particular, I found that the dough handling qualities of the doughs were improved when using the whey (which differs from your recent experience) and also that the finished crumb was more tender and softer. I also thought that the 00 flour had lost its identity because the crust and rim structure did not look the same as a crust using 00 flour without the whey. If you are interested, you can read about some of the textural effects of whey in the article at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8902.msg77167/topicseen.html#msg77167.

As far as using the dried dairy whey with your regular preferment Lehmann dough is concerned, I think that would be a useful experiment if your poolish is up to the task.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

They were interesting experiments you did.  Did you ever find out if the dry dairy whey you used was baker’s grade high heat? 

It is also interesting to me that the lactose in dairy whey does contribute to better browning (Maillard browning), as it can’t be fermented by yeast.  I never knew they added so many kinds of whey added to so many products.  I didn’t even realize there were so many kinds of whey, until you had referenced the chart before at: http://www.stevecarper.com/li/list_of_lactose_percentages.htm

I guess I was lucky that I cut out the honey, to really see the affects of dairy whey in my recent addition of dairy whey. I didn’t notice any sweet taste to this crust.

I did call Cheryl after I received the dairy whey to confirm I did receive both products, and told her I would let her know how the samples worked out in helping crust coloration.  Do you think I should call her again to ask her how the Hormel dried dairy whey might be used in different applications on dough, or see if she has any other information on the kind of baker’s high heat dairy whey I am trying?

I wonder since I am using milk kefir in the dough if this also affects the dough handling qualities with the addition of whey. The dough handling sure were different than my past experiments with milk kefir or other natural starters, but weren’t bad. Maybe after a few more experiments I will see if the dough hydration might need to go up more, when using dairy whey.

Norma

[norma427]

I have been taking pictures that are blurry in my recent attempts at pizzas, and I don’t know why the blurry pictures are happening.  I forgot to post one picture last evening of the bottom crust. 
I also took two more pictures this morning of the pizza I made yesterday, because now there is better lighting, since it is morning.  The rim is now deflated somewhat on the cold slices, but the pictures are a little better.

Picture of bottom crust last evening and pictures this morning of leftover slices.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

They were interesting experiments you did.  Did you ever find out if the dry dairy whey you used was baker’s grade high heat?

 
Yes, they were interesting experiments. I learned a fair amount from them. I never did find out whether the dried dairy whey I got from the Whole Foods bulk bins was bakers grade or not. Since it worked for my purposes in a home environment, it perhaps didn't matter whether it was bakers grade or not. By the time I ran out, Whole Foods no longer carried the product in their bulk bins and started carrying the Bob's Red Mill dried dairy whey instead. My recollection is that the Bob's Red Mill product is bakers grade but for those who might be interested in that product I would call Bob's Red Mill for confirmation, just as I did on a couple of occasions with respect to their dry milk powder (which I was told is bakers grade). When we decided that it might be worth trying out dried dairy whey for your milk kefir Lehmann dough, I thought that it made sense for you to use the bakers grade since you would be using much more than I would for my experiments, and in a commercial setting, and also because you would be able to get samples from foodservice sources.

I did call Cheryl after I received the dairy whey to confirm I did receive both products, and told her I would let her know how the samples worked out in helping crust coloration.  Do you think I should call her again to ask her how the Hormel dried dairy whey might be used in different applications on dough, or see if she has any other information on the kind of baker’s high heat dairy whey I am trying?

I see no harm in asking Chery for ways of using either the dried dairy whey or the dry milk powder for your applications. However, she may think that you are a prospective big user making hundreds of pizzas a week. Consequently, I think I would keep the discussion at an experimental level. I suspect she gave you whatever information she has at her disposal on the particular whey product she gave you as a sample. You might ask her what the differences are for the various dried dairy whey products Hormel carries. At the end of the day, I think you should be able to find other sources of the whey products than Hormel if you decide to use them in your pizza doughs.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

After my last post, I recalled that scott r had posted not too long ago on his experience using whey, at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12096.msg113663/topicseen.html#msg113663. By any chance, did your crust taste like "cheez doodles" (http://www.mizchef.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/wise-cheese-doodles.jpg) or "smartfood" (e.g., http://www.fritolay.com/assets/images/blue/SMARTFOOD_White_Cheddar_Cheese_Flavored_Popcorn.gif)? 

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I think every experiment I have done so far has taught me something, as you also have found out because you have experimented more than I have.  I haven’t seen a lot of the experiments you have done.  This forum is so big, with so many posts each day, that it is hard for me to keep up with everything.

You are right that it did make sense to use baker’s grade high heat dairy whey, since I could get some samples.  I didn’t even know about trying dairy whey to help brown the crust until you and Tom Lehmann had mentioned it.  I might even try some dairy whey in some of my experiments using Caputo flour.  Thanks for making the contacts so I could try dairy whey. 

I already told Cheryl I am only own a small pizza stand at a farmer’s market and was experimenting to see if there was some way to get better crust coloration in a naturally leavened dough using milk kefir. I also told her that I am not sure if I can ever make a naturally leavened dough at market, but was trying. I was busy on the shovel detail (not pizza making detail) today, since it snowed in our area, so I will call Cheryl tomorrow.  I wonder if C.O. Nolt & Sons, Inc. carries dairy whey.  I might also have to call them.  They are a bakery supply distributor and that is where I purchase my KASL. 

Lol, you gave me a good chuckle when you referenced scott r’s post and asked me if the crust tasted like "cheez doodles".    No, the crust didn’t taste like "cheez doodles".  I wonder how scott r did use the dairy whey and at what percent. The crust had a very good taste in my opinion.  I will reheat a slice later today, to see how the crust tastes when reheated. 

Norma

[norma427]

I wanted to note that I gave my mother two slices of this recent pizza with dairy whey added to reheat.  I didn’t tell her I had added anything different in the dough.  She even commented on how different the crust tasted in comparison to the other milk kefir pizzas I made in the past.  She also really liked the crust taste of the added dairy whey. I also gave a slice to my daughter and she commented on how much she liked the crust.  The slices did reheat well.

Norma

[norma427]

I did speak to Cheryl again this morning and asked her about if there are any recommendations for the amounts of dairy whey to put in dough.  She said there aren’t any recommendations for usage and each product could vary of how much dairy whey to add.  I also asked her if Hormel carries different products that are whey based.  Cheryl said the sample she sent me of dairy whey was the standard dairy whey.  She said there are other sweet dairy wheys, but the one is 80% and is a lot more expensive. She seemed to think that the standard dairy whey would be the best choice for me to do experiments with. The others would be more expensive also. She said the dairy whey I was given a sample of can be purchased in different amounts.  I did tell Cheryl that the dairy whey did work out in my first experiment to give better coloration to the crust. I also told her that there seemed to be a better taste in the crust when using dairy whey. I told Cheryl I am doing another experiment with my preferment Lehmann dough and have added dairy whey to one dough ball and had added non-fat milk powder to the other dough ball.  I said I sometimes use a pH meter to monitor the pH levels of my doughs.  I said what interested me was the pH levels in both doughs seemed to change in different ways, than any other doughs I have tried before. Cheryl didn’t know anything about why the pH levels would be different.  Cheryl wished me good luck with my experiments.

Norma

[norma427]

I wanted to note in this post that I took the pH of the final dough with the added dairy whey yesterday and again today.  The pH of the final dough was 6.00 and the pH of the dough ball today was 5.80.

Norma

[norma427]

I used the milk kefir dough ball tonight with the added dairy whey to make a pizza at home.  I left the dough ball warm-up for 2 hrs. This dough tonight was easier to open than the last dough ball.  I don’t know what the different would be in this dough compared to lasts weeks dough, with the added dairy whey. 

This pizza was also baked on my upside down steel pan.  The pizza was dressed with the recipe Peter (Pete-zza) had referenced awhile ago for a white pizza that was a CPK BBQ copy-kat clone, with some modifications.  The modifications to that recipe were I didn’t have any red onions, so I used green spring onions, and I also didn’t have fresh cilantro, so I used fresh rosemary.  The crust was light and airy and tasted good, but I could have bake this pizza probably about another minute or so, because it can be seen that the crust in the middle wasn’t quite done.  It was still good.

The pH of the dough ball right before the bake was 5.71.  At least the pH doesn’t seem to change too much when using dairy whey.  At least in these two experiments, it seems that way.  I also gave this milk kefir dough with dairy whey a 20 minute autolyse before adding the salt and oil.     

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

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Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I realize that you were using your home oven and your oven at market might produce a different result, but it does look like you got a lot of crust coloration using the dried dairy whey in the dough used to make the pizza in the photos. It that your sense, and do you think that the 4% dried dairy whey is about the right amount to use?

Peter