Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 44574 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #250 on: January 12, 2011, 10:09:18 AM »
They were interesting experiments you did.  Did you ever find out if the dry dairy whey you used was bakerís grade high heat?
 
Yes, they were interesting experiments. I learned a fair amount from them. I never did find out whether the dried dairy whey I got from the Whole Foods bulk bins was bakers grade or not. Since it worked for my purposes in a home environment, it perhaps didn't matter whether it was bakers grade or not. By the time I ran out, Whole Foods no longer carried the product in their bulk bins and started carrying the Bob's Red Mill dried dairy whey instead. My recollection is that the Bob's Red Mill product is bakers grade but for those who might be interested in that product I would call Bob's Red Mill for confirmation, just as I did on a couple of occasions with respect to their dry milk powder (which I was told is bakers grade). When we decided that it might be worth trying out dried dairy whey for your milk kefir Lehmann dough, I thought that it made sense for you to use the bakers grade since you would be using much more than I would for my experiments, and in a commercial setting, and also because you would be able to get samples from foodservice sources.

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I did call Cheryl after I received the dairy whey to confirm I did receive both products, and told her I would let her know how the samples worked out in helping crust coloration.  Do you think I should call her again to ask her how the Hormel dried dairy whey might be used in different applications on dough, or see if she has any other information on the kind of bakerís high heat dairy whey I am trying?

I see no harm in asking Chery for ways of using either the dried dairy whey or the dry milk powder for your applications. However, she may think that you are a prospective big user making hundreds of pizzas a week. Consequently, I think I would keep the discussion at an experimental level. I suspect she gave you whatever information she has at her disposal on the particular whey product she gave you as a sample. You might ask her what the differences are for the various dried dairy whey products Hormel carries. At the end of the day, I think you should be able to find other sources of the whey products than Hormel if you decide to use them in your pizza doughs.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #251 on: January 12, 2011, 10:36:36 AM »
Norma,

After my last post, I recalled that scott r had posted not too long ago on his experience using whey, at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12096.msg113663/topicseen.html#msg113663. By any chance, did your crust taste like "cheez doodles" (http://www.mizchef.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/wise-cheese-doodles.jpg) or "smartfood" (e.g., http://www.fritolay.com/assets/images/blue/SMARTFOOD_White_Cheddar_Cheese_Flavored_Popcorn.gif)?  :-D

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #252 on: January 12, 2011, 01:56:41 PM »
Peter,

I think every experiment I have done so far has taught me something, as you also have found out because you have experimented more than I have.  I havenít seen a lot of the experiments you have done.  This forum is so big, with so many posts each day, that it is hard for me to keep up with everything.

You are right that it did make sense to use bakerís grade high heat dairy whey, since I could get some samples.  I didnít even know about trying dairy whey to help brown the crust until you and Tom Lehmann had mentioned it.  I might even try some dairy whey in some of my experiments using Caputo flour.  Thanks for making the contacts so I could try dairy whey. 

I already told Cheryl I am only own a small pizza stand at a farmerís market and was experimenting to see if there was some way to get better crust coloration in a naturally leavened dough using milk kefir. I also told her that I am not sure if I can ever make a naturally leavened dough at market, but was trying. I was busy on the shovel detail (not pizza making detail) today, since it snowed in our area, so I will call Cheryl tomorrow.  I wonder if C.O. Nolt & Sons, Inc. carries dairy whey.  I might also have to call them.  They are a bakery supply distributor and that is where I purchase my KASL. 

Lol, you gave me a good chuckle when you referenced scott rís post and asked me if the crust tasted like "cheez doodles".  :-D  No, the crust didnít taste like "cheez doodles".  I wonder how scott r did use the dairy whey and at what percent. The crust had a very good taste in my opinion.  I will reheat a slice later today, to see how the crust tastes when reheated. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #253 on: January 14, 2011, 09:09:49 AM »
I wanted to note that I gave my mother two slices of this recent pizza with dairy whey added to reheat.  I didnít tell her I had added anything different in the dough.  She even commented on how different the crust tasted in comparison to the other milk kefir pizzas I made in the past.  She also really liked the crust taste of the added dairy whey. I also gave a slice to my daughter and she commented on how much she liked the crust.  The slices did reheat well.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #254 on: January 14, 2011, 11:31:09 AM »
I did speak to Cheryl again this morning and asked her about if there are any recommendations for the amounts of dairy whey to put in dough.  She said there arenít any recommendations for usage and each product could vary of how much dairy whey to add.  I also asked her if Hormel carries different products that are whey based.  Cheryl said the sample she sent me of dairy whey was the standard dairy whey.  She said there are other sweet dairy wheys, but the one is 80% and is a lot more expensive. She seemed to think that the standard dairy whey would be the best choice for me to do experiments with. The others would be more expensive also. She said the dairy whey I was given a sample of can be purchased in different amounts.  I did tell Cheryl that the dairy whey did work out in my first experiment to give better coloration to the crust. I also told her that there seemed to be a better taste in the crust when using dairy whey. I told Cheryl I am doing another experiment with my preferment Lehmann dough and have added dairy whey to one dough ball and had added non-fat milk powder to the other dough ball.  I said I sometimes use a pH meter to monitor the pH levels of my doughs.  I said what interested me was the pH levels in both doughs seemed to change in different ways, than any other doughs I have tried before. Cheryl didnít know anything about why the pH levels would be different.  Cheryl wished me good luck with my experiments.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #255 on: January 15, 2011, 10:31:06 PM »
I wanted to note in this post that I took the pH of the final dough with the added dairy whey yesterday and again today.  The pH of the final dough was 6.00 and the pH of the dough ball today was 5.80.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #256 on: January 18, 2011, 08:56:34 PM »
I used the milk kefir dough ball tonight with the added dairy whey to make a pizza at home.  I left the dough ball warm-up for 2 hrs. This dough tonight was easier to open than the last dough ball.  I donít know what the different would be in this dough compared to lasts weeks dough, with the added dairy whey. 

This pizza was also baked on my upside down steel pan.  The pizza was dressed with the recipe Peter (Pete-zza) had referenced awhile ago for a white pizza that was a CPK BBQ copy-kat clone, with some modifications.  The modifications to that recipe were I didnít have any red onions, so I used green spring onions, and I also didnít have fresh cilantro, so I used fresh rosemary.  The crust was light and airy and tasted good, but I could have bake this pizza probably about another minute or so, because it can be seen that the crust in the middle wasnít quite done.  It was still good.

The pH of the dough ball right before the bake was 5.71.  At least the pH doesnít seem to change too much when using dairy whey.  At least in these two experiments, it seems that way.  I also gave this milk kefir dough with dairy whey a 20 minute autolyse before adding the salt and oil.     

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #257 on: January 18, 2011, 08:59:21 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #258 on: January 18, 2011, 09:00:06 PM »
end of pictures

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #259 on: January 18, 2011, 09:08:32 PM »
Norma,

I realize that you were using your home oven and your oven at market might produce a different result, but it does look like you got a lot of crust coloration using the dried dairy whey in the dough used to make the pizza in the photos. It that your sense, and do you think that the 4% dried dairy whey is about the right amount to use?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #260 on: January 18, 2011, 09:46:27 PM »
Peter,

I am anxious to try out my deck oven at market to see if I can get decent results in browning, like I have gotten in the last two experiments at home.  It snowed and we had an ice storm overnight in our area, so I didnít go to market again. 

Right now I think your suggestion of 4% dairy whey added to the milk kefir formula was good.  I will have to wait until next week to see what happens with the pizza in my deck oven.  I will make another milk kefir dough with the dairy whey on Friday.  Do you have any idea why the dairy whey might change the pH numbers in a different way than before adding the dairy whey?  The milk kefir dough seemed to be more acidic before adding the dairy whey.  I donít know why this dough today was so easy to open and last week it was harder either.  I will wait until next week and see if I notice any difference in how the dough opens.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #261 on: January 19, 2011, 10:05:54 AM »
Do you have any idea why the dairy whey might change the pH numbers in a different way than before adding the dairy whey?  The milk kefir dough seemed to be more acidic before adding the dairy whey.

Norma,

Several possibilities crossed my mind but after doing some research on whey and typical pH values of whey, I decided to revisit the data on the Hormel whey that you provided at Reply 231 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg122457.html#msg122457. As you will see there, the minimum pH value of the Hormel whey is 5.5. When I researched the whey/pH matter, I saw pH values as high as 6.5. So, it may be that the pH of the whey is offsetting the pH of the preferment Lehmann milk kefir dough and raising the net pH value.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #262 on: January 19, 2011, 11:22:45 AM »
Norma,

Several possibilities crossed my mind but after doing some research on whey and typical pH values of whey, I decided to revisit the data on the Hormel whey that you provided at Reply 231 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg122457.html#msg122457. As you will see there, the minimum pH value of the Hormel whey is 5.5. When I researched the whey/pH matter, I saw pH values as high as 6.5. So, it may be that the pH of the whey is offsetting the pH of the preferment Lehmann milk kefir dough and raising the net pH value.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your explanation about how the dairy whey might be changing the pH in the milk kefir poolish dough.  I have written Tom Lehmann a PM this morning to let him know about the results I have gotten in the last two weeks using dairy whey in the milk kefir Lehmann dough.  I also told him I havenít had a chance to try this formula out in my deck oven and had asked him other questions about the preferment Lehmann dough and the milk kefir Lehmann dough. I would think by now he would get sick of me asking questions by now.  :-D

I also searched the web last evening to see if I could learn more about what dairy whey does in dough.  I found a few interesting sites that said dairy whey does help dough. Some of the websites said adding dairy whey to breads does improve bread aroma.  The one website had a patent for using pea flour and sweet dairy whey to aid and help crust coloration, texture, and crumb quality.  This was for bread, but I could also see how this could relate to pizza.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4301179.html

I wonder how pea flour added with dairy whey would change a pizza crust.  The above patent called for a sponge in different formulas with non-fat dried milk in some formulas and dairy whey in other formulas.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #263 on: January 19, 2011, 12:02:05 PM »
Norma,

The article that I found to be very comprehensive on dairy whey is the article at http://www.cdr.wisc.edu/programs/dairyingredients/pdf/dried_dairy_ingdients.pdf. For your purposes, you really only need to know what form of dried dairy whey to use and how much.

Pea flour is often used to make gluten-free baked goods. Bob's Red Mill sells a grean pea flour, at http://www.bobsredmill.com/green_pea-flour.html. I'm not sure what the grean pea flour would do to the color of the finished crust.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #264 on: January 19, 2011, 03:09:55 PM »
Norma,

The article that I found to be very comprehensive on dairy whey is the article at http://www.cdr.wisc.edu/programs/dairyingredients/pdf/dried_dairy_ingdients.pdf. For your purposes, you really only need to know what form of dried dairy whey to use and how much.

Pea flour is often used to make gluten-free baked goods. Bob's Red Mill sells a grean pea flour, at http://www.bobsredmill.com/green_pea-flour.html. I'm not sure what the grean pea flour would do to the color of the finished crust.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the pdf article.  I didnít understand it all, but found it interesting how the dairy whey is made.  At one time when I was trying to make sugar-free caramel popcorn I had contacted businesses that made concentrated flavors for different food applications.  At that time I found out how they spray dried concentration flavors for food applications.  I didnít buy any of those concentrated flavors because they were too expensive, but the one company did come up with concentrated flavor that could stand up to heat of around 300 degrees F.  That was the product that worked for sugar-free caramel corn.  I see they also spray-dry dairy whey. 

I know for my purposes in the formula for the milk kefir I only have to know about how much dairy whey to add and what kind to use.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #265 on: February 12, 2011, 07:47:36 AM »
I mixed another dough ball yesterday for a milk kefir Lehmann dough with added dairy whey.  The thing about this dough that wonít give me consistent results is I had mixed the milk kefir poolish last Friday to be made into the final dough last Friday, but the weathermen thought it might snow on Tuesday, so I never made the final dough.  I left the milk kefir poolish in the refrigerator until yesterday and then made the final dough.  What worries me about this dough with the milk kefir poolish is I took the pH of the final dough and it was 4.82 yesterday.  I donít think this dough will be okay to make a pizza Tuesday.  The only reasoning for why I tried the older milk kefir poolish is I wanted to see if the milk kefir poolish could be used after a week in the refrigerator.  I thought maybe a milk kefir poolish could be left for longer in the refrigerator and still be able to be used later.  The milk kefir poolish did smell more sour.

Picture of dough ball with added dairy whey.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #266 on: February 13, 2011, 03:20:13 PM »
I am starting to develop a phobia of this recent dough that I made Friday.  :-\ The pH today is 4.39, which doesnít sound good to me.  The dough looks okay with some bubbles on the bottom and the smell is still more sour than my previous doughs, but the pH number has me wondering.  I really think now this dough wonít last until Tuesday.

Pictures of dough today.

Norma


Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #267 on: February 15, 2011, 09:09:44 PM »
I made the pizza with milk kefir with the added dairy whey today.  The crust didnít brown very well.  The tasted of the crust was good and the crumb was moist.  The dough had a sour dough smell, but when it was baked the crust only had a slight sourdough taste.  I thought the taste was good.

I donít think I am going to keep experimenting with the milk kefir in a dough.  I might do it from time to time, but donít think I am going to try a natural preferment dough at market for every week because the taste of the crust isnít that much better than my preferment Lehmann dough.

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #268 on: February 15, 2011, 09:10:40 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #269 on: February 18, 2011, 08:14:31 AM »
This post is just an update on my milk kefir and grains.  My regular food inspector was at market Tuesday morning and stopped by my stand to talk and let me know that he is training a new food inspector for our area.  He introduced the new trainee to me.  I wanted to call my food inspector for awhile about selling milk kefir smoothies and lemonades made from water kefir. I also thought at one point I maybe wanted to make dough with milk kefir to sell at market.  I wanted to do more experiments with the milk kefir grains, before I called him to see if selling milk kefir drinks or pizza made with milk kefir would be approved as safe in Pa.  Both my current food inspector and the trainee never heard of milk kefir or milk kefir grains.  I tried to explain to them what there were.  I also had some cultured butter I had made at market Tuesday and let them taste the butter made from the milk keifr grains.  They both thought the butter was fantastic.  I had asked the market manager awhile ago if I would be allowed to sell drinks made with the milk kefir and he said yes.  Since my food inspector knew nothing about milk kefir he said the specialists would know all about it and he said he would mention the milk kefir to the specialists at the Pa. Dept. of Agriculture.  He said I then would get an email from them.

This is the email I received this morning from the Sanitarian Program Specialists.  Hopefully I will be able to find out more about if I can be able to sell drinks made with milk kefir or water kefir.  I sent a reply to what I know about milk kefir so far.

Good morning Norma,
here is the information that I received from our specialists.

Theresa M. Mosby

Food Sanitarian
Bureau of Food Safety
Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture
Phone (717) 787-5289 ext. 432
(717) 602-0628

________________________________


Good Morning.  Kefir seems to be a popular subject lately.  We have lately been
discussing what probiotics must be included in a product that is labeled as
Kefir.  It seems that the Lifeway plant in Philadelphia does not include yeast
as a component of their fermentation for their Kefir.

The "Kefir grains" topic is new to me, and I just familiarized myself with them
by reviewing several websites.  The Kefir grains, according to what I read, must
be traceable to the Caucasus mountains area and appear like cauliflower florets.
I noted one website which sold the Kefir grains cautioned that they should not
be purchased by pregnant women and people with weakened immune systems because
of the "small" possibility of contaminatin with pathogens during home
fermentation.  I do not know exactly what form they would be sold in - whether
as dried "grains" or carried in a milk medium possibly.  It seems that we might
want to evaluate this as well as try to confirm the purity and presence of the
beneficial yeasts and bacteria present - in a Kefir grain kit that we find in a
commercial setting.

I'll be interested in learning more as you do!
Paul


Sanitarian Program Specialist
Bureau of Food Safety and Laboratory Services
Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture
724-443-1585 ©) 717-329-8803

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #270 on: February 18, 2011, 08:33:14 AM »
I think this is the first place in the Western Hemisphere that is selling milk kefir cheeses.  It does have a lot of information about milk kefir on this site.

http://www.fingerlakesdextercreamery.com/Index1.html

It would be interesting to hear if anyone else does sell milk kefir products here in the US commercially.  Maybe this is breaking technology.  Who knows?  There could be benefits for being the one of the first people to be able to sell milk kefir drinks commercially in the US, if it is allowed.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #271 on: February 23, 2011, 02:36:11 AM »
Hi Norma.

Just wanted to report that I'm pretty sure Kefir products have been for sale for some time in places like Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc.

I'm in Atlanta, GA. and have even seen Kefir products in our regular grocery stores(Kroger, Publix). I guess it's probably something one may not notice, unless they were specifically looking for it. Don't know even if there is any particular demand for Kefir. In the same vein, don't know how much space, and for how long a time these products would be allowed in a store considering the competition for shelf space and all.

Maybe I misunderstood your last post, but just wanted to let you know that Kefir products can be found.

http://www.lifeway.net/Products/Kefir.aspx
Dwight

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #272 on: February 23, 2011, 03:27:07 AM »
that specialist lists a phone number about half an hour south of me  :-D
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #273 on: February 23, 2011, 08:17:56 AM »
Hi Norma.

Just wanted to report that I'm pretty sure Kefir products have been for sale for some time in places like Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc.

I'm in Atlanta, GA. and have even seen Kefir products in our regular grocery stores(Kroger, Publix). I guess it's probably something one may not notice, unless they were specifically looking for it. Don't know even if there is any particular demand for Kefir. In the same vein, don't know how much space, and for how long a time these products would be allowed in a store considering the competition for shelf space and all.

Maybe I misunderstood your last post, but just wanted to let you know that Kefir products can be found.

http://www.lifeway.net/Products/Kefir.aspx

dwighttsharpe,

I have been corresponding with Rosie of  Finger Lakes Dexter Creamery LLC.   I have also been corresponding with my food inspectors here in Pa. at the Dept. Of Argriculture.  So far my food inspectors have no clue about milk kefir and if it is safe to use in drinks or not, especially in a commercial setting.  So far they havenít figured out what real milk kefir is, except for their reading on websites about it.

Rosie has been very helpful in helping me.  When using milk kefir from the grains it is a lot different than using a factory starter that commercial food processors use.  These are some of the emails from Rosie.

Hi Norma!
Are you refering to using kefir grains to culture the milk, or the factory starter that one can buy to make kefir.
If the factory starter, you should not have any prob. Using pasteurized milk is the only way as they won't let you use raw milk unless it is aged for 60 days!
But they probably will not let you use kefir grains. I had a very difficult time getting through NYS Ag & Mkts.
The factory starter is not as good as the real thing. Not as many good probiotics. That is what all the kefir drinks are made with that are on the market.
Just keep asking your inspectors until they give you an answer!
 
All the very best to you!!!
Rose

Norma,
My process was very complex. I worked with a professor at Cornell with a SARE grant, and he was also a coop. ext. person. He really helped me get my process approved.
It would not be the same for you. You must work directly with your inspector folks there.
Rose

Another email from Rosie how she has problems because she is using her own cows to produce her milk kefir cheese.

Norma, there are a lot of coliform problems with using Kefir.
Just warning you. I have numerous failed milk tests with the milk divison.
You will have to be approved by the state milk inspectors, and you will have to be tested probably monthly. It is very difficult to get kefir to be coliform free.
Not that it is ever a problem for consumption as far as I know, but the state will not tolerate it.
Rose

I told Rose that I would be buying my milk for my milk kefir grains from an approved Pa. source.

Another email from Rose.

Norma, dealing with the milk inspectors is a huge bother, and a completely different world.
Let me know how it goes! I know the FDA has been causing lots of problems for the raw milk producers in PA.
Rose

I donít know if I ever will be approved to use milk kefir grains to produce milk kefir drinks to sell at market, because using real milk kefir grains is so new.  Rosie had to apply for grants and work with a professor at Cornell, get a SARE grant, and work with a coop. ext. person.  She had to jump though many hoops to be able to sell her milk kefir cheese.  Who knows what I might have to do to be approved.  I might never be approved to sell milk kefir drinks.  I guess it is good I decided not to try milk kefir to leaven pizza at market.  Having to deal with a starter and also going though all this of being approved to sell pizza with milk kefir,would also be a lot.  I never knew before starting this thread how beneficial real milk kefir was.  I told Rose at some time I am going to try and make milk kefir cheese to eat at home, but so far I havenít found the right recipe, but have seen many on the web.

dwighttsharpe thanks for your help and the link your referenced. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #274 on: February 23, 2011, 08:22:23 AM »
that specialist lists a phone number about half an hour south of me  :-D

c0mpl3x,

Where do you live?  Do you live in Pa. also?

Norma