Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 31225 times)

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #140 on: November 17, 2010, 09:58:05 AM »
Norma,

Although the protocols were not identical for the last three milk kefir Lehmann doughs, you have demonstrated that you can get good results using your milk kefir poolish at 15%, 30% and almost 50% of the total formula flour. Since your kefir leavening system is not the same as a commercial yeast leavening system, I don't see any reason to keep you from using a milk kefir poolish above 50%. The only way to know what you are likely to get is to just try it.

Was the most recent milk kefir Lehmann pizza the best of the the three that you made using the milk kefir poolish? Also, was the crust coloration acceptable? And were there any other revelations with the last dough?

At some point you might also consider making a larger milk kefir dough batch if only to see how a larger amount of dough behaves.

Peter


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #141 on: November 17, 2010, 12:45:21 PM »
Norma,

Although the protocols were not identical for the last three milk kefir Lehmann doughs, you have demonstrated that you can get good results using your milk kefir poolish at 15%, 30% and almost 50% of the total formula flour. Since your kefir leavening system is not the same as a commercial yeast leavening system, I don't see any reason to keep you from using a milk kefir poolish above 50%. The only way to know what you are likely to get is to just try it.

Was the most recent milk kefir Lehmann pizza the best of the the three that you made using the milk kefir poolish? Also, was the crust coloration acceptable? And were there any other revelations with the last dough?

At some point you might also consider making a larger milk kefir dough batch if only to see how a larger amount of dough behaves.

Peter

Peter,

I know the protocols werenít the same for the last three milk kefir Lehmann doughs.  I like the pizza make yesterday with the added amount of poolish the best.  That is why I wondered what would happened if I tried a higher amount of milk kefir poolish in the Lehmann dough.  Do you have any recommendations of what amount of poolish to try next?  I would like the crust to be a little browner and had thought about trying an addition of some diastatic malt powder.  Do you think that would possibly give me a browner crust?  If it would what amount would you recommend, if you think the malt powder would work.

In this recent pizza the only other revelation I can think of off the top of my head, is this crust stayed crisper and didnít soften as fast. 

I would like to try a bigger batch at some point, but right now I would like to see is more added poolish does make a difference in the pizza. 

I left the other dough ball I made at the same temperatures at market all day.  After Steve and I made the one pizza, I put the extra dough ball into the deli case.  It had fermented about the same as the dough ball I made into a pizza.  Now the dough ball is at home in the refrigerator.  I am not still sure what I am going to do with the dough ball.  When placed into the deli case and now refrigerator the fermentation process is slowed down to almost nothing.  I am just trying to understand dough made with milk kefir more.

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #142 on: November 17, 2010, 02:34:38 PM »
I like the pizza make yesterday with the added amount of poolish the best.  That is why I wondered what would happened if I tried a higher amount of milk kefir poolish in the Lehmann dough.  Do you have any recommendations of what amount of poolish to try next?  I would like the crust to be a little browner and had thought about trying an addition of some diastatic malt powder.  Do you think that would possibly give me a browner crust?  If it would what amount would you recommend, if you think the malt powder would work.


Norma,

You might try using the milk kefir poolish at 60% of the total formula flour and see how that goes.

As far as the diastatic malt is concerned, you might try using some and see if that helps with the crust coloration. Usually the lack of residual sugar that results in reduced crust coloration is because of an overly long fermentation that depletes the natural sugars. I don't know if that is the case with your milk kefir poolish, but it might be worth trying some diastatic malt. The amount to use is harder to say since the range of use that I have seen recommended is fairly wide. As you will note from Reply 140 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86827/topicseen.html#msg86827, Professor Calvel recommends 0.1-0.2% but Didier Rosada recommends 0.5-1%. Both sets of numbers are with respect to the total formula flour. However, I believe the amount mentioned by Professor Calvel is apparently for a straight dough. For one of his dough recipes using poolish, he uses 0.25% diastatic malt but that is for a dough where the poolish represents only one third of the total formula water. If you go to about 60% poolish by flour weight, that is over 95% of the total formula water. So, if we assume that a highly hydrated poolish (100%) used in large quantity is hard on sugar, then I think I would use around 0.75% diastatic malt.

I should caution you, however, that you shouldn't use the diastatic malt entry in the expanded dough calculating tool because the conversion factor is off by a decimal point. Instead, when you arrive at the dough formulation you want to use, multiply the flour weight, in ounces, by 0.75% and divide the answer by 0.0864583. That will give you the number of teaspoons of dry diastatic malt to use.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #143 on: November 17, 2010, 05:57:18 PM »
Norma,

You might try using the milk kefir poolish at 60% of the total formula flour and see how that goes.

As far as the diastatic malt is concerned, you might try using some and see if that helps with the crust coloration. Usually the lack of residual sugar that results in reduced crust coloration is because of an overly long fermentation that depletes the natural sugars. I don't know if that is the case with your milk kefir poolish, but it might be worth trying some diastatic malt. The amount to use is harder to say since the range of use that I have seen recommended is fairly wide. As you will note from Reply 140 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86827/topicseen.html#msg86827, Professor Calvel recommends 0.1-0.2% but Didier Rosada recommends 0.5-1%. Both sets of numbers are with respect to the total formula flour. However, I believe the amount mentioned by Professor Calvel is apparently for a straight dough. For one of his dough recipes using poolish, he uses 0.25% diastatic malt but that is for a dough where the poolish represents only one third of the total formula water. If you go to about 60% poolish by flour weight, that is over 95% of the total formula water. So, if we assume that a highly hydrated poolish (100%) used in large quantity is hard on sugar, then I think I would use around 0.75% diastatic malt.

I should caution you, however, that you shouldn't use the diastatic malt entry in the expanded dough calculating tool because the conversion factor is off by a decimal point. Instead, when you arrive at the dough formulation you want to use, multiply the flour weight, in ounces, by 0.75% and divide the answer by 0.0864583. That will give you the number of teaspoons of dry diastatic malt to use.

Peter


Peter,

I will go with your recommendation of using the milk kefir poolish at 60 % of the total formula flour.  When I was doing the bagel experiment with the milk kefir, that wasnít a poolish and added directly, I still saw how slow the dough fermented with using the milk kefir.  That is what got me to thinking that I donít really think lack of residual sugar is the reason for this pizza I am now trying with the milk kefir poolish is the reason for lack of browning.  I could be wrong, because I also used diastatic malt in the bagels and also eggs.  That dough looked fermented more than any of my milk kefir doughs so far.  By the looks of the bagel dough, I almost thought it was overfermented, but it still browned.  I have no idea what the amount of eggs I used also did to the bagel dough with milk kefir.  Someday I would like to test that bagel dough for a pizza.

I guess I could test what I am thinking by baking the leftover dough I made in my home oven at longer bake times.  My oven at home doesnít get as high as my deck oven and would take longer to bake.  I still am not sure if that would tell me if there are lack of residual sugar being the cause for the crust not browning enough. 

Maybe I am doing too many experiments on this milk kefir dough, because I am already doing a autolyse and was thinking along the lines of since the milk kefir dough is a sourdough and I so far believe and have seen slower fermentation activity, I canít fully understand what is happening in the dough.  So far I havenít seen any dough extensibility in the milk kefir doughs.

Thank you for referencing Reply 140 again and cautioning me not to use the diastatic malt in the expanded dough calculating tool.  I will also add some diastatic malt to the next test dough with the milk keifr.

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #144 on: November 17, 2010, 07:33:43 PM »
Norma,

I agree with you that it did not appear that your milk kefir poolish and dough were fermenting too quickly. However, I thought that it might be worth trying some diastatic malt to see if more sugars can be produced by the added diastatic malt. Diastatic malt acts on damaged starch and, although I would expect that the barley malt added to the flour is balanced against the degree of starch damage in the flour, if there are enough sites for the diastatic malt to work on maybe there will be more natural sugars released from the damaged starch. Up to this point, I had been counting on the lactose in the milk kefir to contribute to crust browning. Maybe there isn't sufficient lactose to accomplish that purpose and/or there is something that is consuming the lactose, such as friendly bacteria as was discussed earlier in this thread at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg115232.html#msg115232.

There are other ways of trying to increase the degree of crust coloration, such as using different forms of sugar and dried dairy whey, which is rich in lactose, but I would rather defer those possibilities pending the results you get from using the diastatic malt.

You mentioned that you used diastatic malt for the Montreal-style bagel dough that you made using the milk kefir in lieu of the commercial yeast. In widespreadpizza's bagel dough formulation, the only form of malt that I saw was non-diastatic barley malt (dry or liquid). Did you use the diastatic malt in lieu of the non-diastatic barley malt product, or did you supplement the flour with diastatic malt while still using the non-diastatic malt? That aside, I would fully expect the eggs to contribute to final crust coloration, making it difficult to isolate the independent crust browning effects of the eggs and malt.

Some time ago, either a member used the basic Lehmann NY style dough to make bagels or suggested that possibility, so to reverse that process and use bagel dough to make a pizza might work.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 07:36:51 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #145 on: November 17, 2010, 08:20:21 PM »
Norma,

I agree with you that it did not appear that your milk kefir poolish and dough were fermenting too quickly. However, I thought that it might be worth trying some diastatic malt to see if more sugars can be produced by the added diastatic malt. Diastatic malt acts on damaged starch and, although I would expect that the barley malt added to the flour is balanced against the degree of starch damage in the flour, if there are enough sites for the diastatic malt to work on maybe there will be more natural sugars released from the damaged starch. Up to this point, I had been counting on the lactose in the milk kefir to contribute to crust browning. Maybe there isn't sufficient lactose to accomplish that purpose and/or there is something that is consuming the lactose, such as friendly bacteria as was discussed earlier in this thread at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg115232.html#msg115232.

There are other ways of trying to increase the degree of crust coloration, such as using different forms of sugar and dried dairy whey, which is rich in lactose, but I would rather defer those possibilities pending the results you get from using the diastatic malt.

You mentioned that you used diastatic malt for the Montreal-style bagel dough that you made using the milk kefir in lieu of the commercial yeast. In widespreadpizza's bagel dough formulation, the only form of malt that I saw was non-diastatic barley malt (dry or liquid). Did you use the diastatic malt in lieu of the non-diastatic barley malt product, or did you supplement the flour with diastatic malt while still using the non-diastatic malt? That aside, I would fully expect the eggs to contribute to final crust coloration, making it difficult to isolate the independent crust browning effects of the eggs and malt.

Some time ago, either a member used the basic Lehmann NY style dough to make bagels or suggested that possibility, so to reverse that process and use bagel dough to make a pizza might work.

Peter


Peter,

Understanding what really happens in any dough is hard.  When using this milk kefir as a leavening agent understanding even seems harder for me.  Since the diastatic malt does work on damaged starch maybe this next experiment will help me learn more if the malt powder does help with residual sugars.  I just donít know enough about all this to figure this out, but might learn more.  I also thought possibly the lactose in the milk kefir would contribute to crust browning, but so far it doesnít seem like it did.  I know this milk kefir is supposed to have more friendly bacteria and that also complicates things.  It might be the friendly bacteria that is consuming the lactose. 

I know Marcís (widespreadpizza) formula called for non-diastatic barley malt, but I didnít have of that, so I just substituted the diastatic malt in the formula for my bagels.  It seemed to work okay for me. My mother really liked the bagels so I will be making them again in a few weeks. I donít know if the added amounts of eggs to the formula that I had quartered then did help my bagels or not.  When I have time some day I will try the formula I used for Marcís bagels and see if it will make a decent pizza.  It seems like it would anyway. I will save some of the bagel dough when I make it again and then try to make a pizza.

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #146 on: November 19, 2010, 11:49:58 AM »
This is the formula I am going to use for the next attempt at the milk kefir poolish pizza.  I mixed the poolish around the same time this morning and will wait until I think it is ready to be incorporated into another dough.  I hope I figured out the malt powder right for the amount of flour I am using for this formula. 

To note about the extra dough ball I made last week, I am watching how it ferments.  It was placed in the deli case after I made the pizza on Tuesday, then brought home and now is in the refrigerator.  There are more bubbles on the bottom and sides, but it doesnít look like it is overfermented.  I will see if this dough made last Friday can make it until Tuesday. At least that is my plan for right now.

Dough formula for dough to be made today and pictures of top and bottom of dough ball made last Friday.

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #147 on: November 19, 2010, 11:51:12 AM »
pictures of dough ball

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #148 on: November 19, 2010, 08:13:29 PM »
Well, some good news and bad news on the milk kefir poolish today.  The poolish looked like it was ready to be incorporated into the final dough at lot earlier than before.  I didnít even bother looking at it and when I went to take it along to market today, it looked like it was ready.  I had other errands to do and also go to market, so the milk kefir poolish had to wait until I returned home to incorporate it into the final dough.  The milk kefir poolish pH was 4.57 and the pH of the final dough was 5.07.  The final dough temperature was 74.7 F.

1st picture milk kefir poolish
2nd picture dough ball

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #149 on: November 21, 2010, 11:01:01 PM »
These are some pictures of how the milk kefir dough looked on both dough balls this afternoon.  I had deflated the one bubble on the milk kefir extra dough ball from last week.  This evening the extra dough ball has gotten some darker flecks on it.  The other milk kefir dough ball I made with the extra poolish seems to be fermenting faster.  Hopefully the extra dough ball I saved will bake into a tasty pizza.

Pictures below

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2010, 07:53:51 AM »
Picture of the extra dough ball, this morning.  As can be seen on the milk kefir dough ball there are now little specks on the ball.  There is also another bubble forming on the top.

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #151 on: November 23, 2010, 09:25:47 PM »
The pizza was made today with the extra milk kefir poolish and malt powder.  I would have thought this pizza would have gotten darker on the crust from the added malt powder, but it didnít.  The tasted of this pizza crust was better though, with the added 60% milk kefir poolish.  The crust was a little softer than my other crusts made with the milk kefir poolishs.  I donít think that residual sugar was depleted in this dough. 

Pictures below

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #152 on: November 23, 2010, 09:27:25 PM »
more pictures

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #153 on: November 23, 2010, 09:29:16 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #154 on: November 23, 2010, 09:33:32 PM »
The other extra dough ball with the milk kefir poolish was also made today.  It was cold fermented for 11 days.  The taste of this crust really had a nice complex taste.  There wasnít any sour taste in the crust.  After this extra dough ball was used to make a pizza, I think this milk kefir dough could have gone more days before it had to be baked.  As can be seen on this crust, it was darker than the crust with the 60% milk kefir poolish added.  That is one reason I believe there is still enough residual sugar left, if this dough could be cold fermented for so many days and still could be successfully baked into a pizza.

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 09:38:54 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #155 on: November 23, 2010, 09:35:49 PM »
more pictures

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #156 on: November 23, 2010, 09:37:50 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #157 on: November 23, 2010, 09:49:44 PM »
Norma,

Would you say that the last two milk kefir poolish Lehmann pizzas were the best of the lot of the several versions that you tried? Since the 60% version was made only recently, what was the amount of poolish you used for the second dough ball that went out to 11 days? And was that dough ball cold fermented but not frozen?

I can't say that I am really surprised that the diastatic barley malt did not help as much as we would have liked. I have experienced the same ineffectiveness of diastatic malt when I used it but I was using only small amounts of it. If the friendly milk kefir bacteria are cleaning out the lactose sugar, then you might have to resort to traditional ways of increasing residual sugar to contribute to final crust coloration. I think that would rule out using dried dairy whey, because of its high lactose content, but might permit using something like ordinary table sugar, at around 1-2% (so you don't get bottom crust burning in your deck oven), or maybe even some honey. You perhaps could also use non-diastatic malt power or liquid but that might darken the crumb more than you would like.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2010, 10:24:13 PM »
Norma,

Would you say that the last two milk kefir poolish Lehmann pizzas were the best of the lot of the several versions that you tried? Since the 60% version was made only recently, what was the amount of poolish you used for the second dough ball that went out to 11 days? And was that dough ball cold fermented but not frozen?

I can't say that I am really surprised that the diastatic barley malt did not help as much as we would have liked. I have experienced the same ineffectiveness of diastatic malt when I used it but I was using only small amounts of it. If the friendly milk kefir bacteria are cleaning out the lactose sugar, then you might have to resort to traditional ways of increasing residual sugar to contribute to final crust coloration. I think that would rule out using dried dairy whey, because of its high lactose content, but might permit using something like ordinary table sugar, at around 1-2% (so you don't get bottom crust burning in your deck oven), or maybe even some honey. You perhaps could also use non-diastatic malt power or liquid but that might darken the crumb more than you would like.

Peter


Peter,

Steve and I both thought both of the pizzas made today were better than the several other versions I tried.  The extra dough ball I used 49.6% poolish as posted at Reply 122 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg116969.html#msg116969 That dough was made November 12, 2010 and left out at market for 6 hrs. last Tuesday along with the other dough ball I baked into a pizza.  My post at Reply 141  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117455.html#msg117455 said I took the dough ball home and then placed it into the refrigerator.  It has been there until today, when I then took the dough ball to market.  I left the 49.6 % milk kefir poolish dough ball warm-up for 1 Ĺ hrs today.  I think that is a long while for this dough ball first left to sit at market at ambient temperatures so long (6 hrs.) and then also letting the dough ball cold ferment in my refrigerator since last Tuesday. The extra dough ball was never frozen.

If I would try some honey, instead of sugar what amount would you recommend trying?  Both of these pizza crusts were good, but I would like to see the crust brown more.  Thanks for telling me you didnít think the malt powder would help with browning from your experiences.    

I found it interesting today when I took the pH of both doughs.  The dough that lasted so long, pH was 4.79 and the dough ball made last Friday pH was 4.89.  It seems like the milk kefir used in the dough makes the dough ferment slower than other ways.  I might be wrong, but it seemed that way to me. 

Norma
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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #159 on: November 24, 2010, 07:44:53 AM »
I was using the search feature for honey in a Lehmann dough and found these posts for a Lehmann dough with honey.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11825.msg109844.html#msg109844
and
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg62457.html#msg62457

I wonder what would be the proper amount of honey to try in my deck oven with the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough, in my next attempt to get a browner crust.

Norma
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