Author Topic: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough  (Read 44689 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #150 on: November 22, 2010, 07:53:51 AM »
Picture of the extra dough ball, this morning.  As can be seen on the milk kefir dough ball there are now little specks on the ball.  There is also another bubble forming on the top.

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #151 on: November 23, 2010, 09:25:47 PM »
The pizza was made today with the extra milk kefir poolish and malt powder.  I would have thought this pizza would have gotten darker on the crust from the added malt powder, but it didnít.  The tasted of this pizza crust was better though, with the added 60% milk kefir poolish.  The crust was a little softer than my other crusts made with the milk kefir poolishs.  I donít think that residual sugar was depleted in this dough. 

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #152 on: November 23, 2010, 09:27:25 PM »
more pictures

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #153 on: November 23, 2010, 09:29:16 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #154 on: November 23, 2010, 09:33:32 PM »
The other extra dough ball with the milk kefir poolish was also made today.  It was cold fermented for 11 days.  The taste of this crust really had a nice complex taste.  There wasnít any sour taste in the crust.  After this extra dough ball was used to make a pizza, I think this milk kefir dough could have gone more days before it had to be baked.  As can be seen on this crust, it was darker than the crust with the 60% milk kefir poolish added.  That is one reason I believe there is still enough residual sugar left, if this dough could be cold fermented for so many days and still could be successfully baked into a pizza.

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 09:38:54 PM by norma427 »

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #155 on: November 23, 2010, 09:35:49 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #156 on: November 23, 2010, 09:37:50 PM »
end of pictures

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #157 on: November 23, 2010, 09:49:44 PM »
Norma,

Would you say that the last two milk kefir poolish Lehmann pizzas were the best of the lot of the several versions that you tried? Since the 60% version was made only recently, what was the amount of poolish you used for the second dough ball that went out to 11 days? And was that dough ball cold fermented but not frozen?

I can't say that I am really surprised that the diastatic barley malt did not help as much as we would have liked. I have experienced the same ineffectiveness of diastatic malt when I used it but I was using only small amounts of it. If the friendly milk kefir bacteria are cleaning out the lactose sugar, then you might have to resort to traditional ways of increasing residual sugar to contribute to final crust coloration. I think that would rule out using dried dairy whey, because of its high lactose content, but might permit using something like ordinary table sugar, at around 1-2% (so you don't get bottom crust burning in your deck oven), or maybe even some honey. You perhaps could also use non-diastatic malt power or liquid but that might darken the crumb more than you would like.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2010, 10:24:13 PM »
Norma,

Would you say that the last two milk kefir poolish Lehmann pizzas were the best of the lot of the several versions that you tried? Since the 60% version was made only recently, what was the amount of poolish you used for the second dough ball that went out to 11 days? And was that dough ball cold fermented but not frozen?

I can't say that I am really surprised that the diastatic barley malt did not help as much as we would have liked. I have experienced the same ineffectiveness of diastatic malt when I used it but I was using only small amounts of it. If the friendly milk kefir bacteria are cleaning out the lactose sugar, then you might have to resort to traditional ways of increasing residual sugar to contribute to final crust coloration. I think that would rule out using dried dairy whey, because of its high lactose content, but might permit using something like ordinary table sugar, at around 1-2% (so you don't get bottom crust burning in your deck oven), or maybe even some honey. You perhaps could also use non-diastatic malt power or liquid but that might darken the crumb more than you would like.

Peter

Peter,

Steve and I both thought both of the pizzas made today were better than the several other versions I tried.  The extra dough ball I used 49.6% poolish as posted at Reply 122 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg116969.html#msg116969 That dough was made November 12, 2010 and left out at market for 6 hrs. last Tuesday along with the other dough ball I baked into a pizza.  My post at Reply 141  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg117455.html#msg117455 said I took the dough ball home and then placed it into the refrigerator.  It has been there until today, when I then took the dough ball to market.  I left the 49.6 % milk kefir poolish dough ball warm-up for 1 Ĺ hrs today.  I think that is a long while for this dough ball first left to sit at market at ambient temperatures so long (6 hrs.) and then also letting the dough ball cold ferment in my refrigerator since last Tuesday. The extra dough ball was never frozen.

If I would try some honey, instead of sugar what amount would you recommend trying?  Both of these pizza crusts were good, but I would like to see the crust brown more.  Thanks for telling me you didnít think the malt powder would help with browning from your experiences.    

I found it interesting today when I took the pH of both doughs.  The dough that lasted so long, pH was 4.79 and the dough ball made last Friday pH was 4.89.  It seems like the milk kefir used in the dough makes the dough ferment slower than other ways.  I might be wrong, but it seemed that way to me. 

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #159 on: November 24, 2010, 07:44:53 AM »
I was using the search feature for honey in a Lehmann dough and found these posts for a Lehmann dough with honey.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11825.msg109844.html#msg109844
and
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg62457.html#msg62457

I wonder what would be the proper amount of honey to try in my deck oven with the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough, in my next attempt to get a browner crust.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #160 on: November 24, 2010, 09:51:38 AM »
Norma,

I'm sure that there is some application where using diastatic malt works for its intended purpose. Maybe for the duration of your fermentation protocol you need to use more. Perhaps sometime you can try doubling the amount of diastatic malt and see if that works without making the dough overly slack.

I assume that making an 11-day dough for market is not a practical option despite its virtues. That would seem to leave the 60% poolish version to improve upon from the standpoint of crust coloration. Honey seems to work pretty well in delivering crust coloration but its downside is that you can't use too much because of the risk of ending up with a bottom crust that turn the desired degree of brown in your deck oven before the rim of the pizza browns up adequately. I typically use honey to get better crust color in emergency dough/pizzas. I think you might start with about 1.5% honey to test the limits of your oven. If it turns out that a test dough with the honey browns too quickly on the bottom, you can always slide one or two pizza screens under the pizza toward the end of its bake to lift it off of the stone surface while the rest of the pizza finishes baking.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #161 on: November 24, 2010, 12:15:08 PM »
Norma,

I'm sure that there is some application where using diastatic malt works for its intended purpose. Maybe for the duration of your fermentation protocol you need to use more. Perhaps sometime you can try doubling the amount of diastatic malt and see if that works without making the dough overly slack.

I assume that making an 11-day dough for market is not a practical option despite its virtues. That would seem to leave the 60% poolish version to improve upon from the standpoint of crust coloration. Honey seems to work pretty well in delivering crust coloration but its downside is that you can't use too much because of the risk of ending up with a bottom crust that turn the desired degree of brown in your deck oven before the rim of the pizza browns up adequately. I typically use honey to get better crust color in emergency dough/pizzas. I think you might start with about 1.5% honey to test the limits of your oven. If it turns out that a test dough with the honey browns too quickly on the bottom, you can always slide one or two pizza screens under the pizza toward the end of its bake to lift it off of the stone surface while the rest of the pizza finishes baking.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you are sure some application of using diastatic malt might work for the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough.  At some point I will try doubling the amount of diastatic malt and see if that works to help brown the crust.  All these doughs so far with the milk kefir poolish are very soft and easy to open.  When opening the doughs they almost fall open by themselves. 

You are correct that an 11-day or more dough wouldnít be practical for market, but sometime I might try this milk kefir poolish in the Lehmann dough to see how long a cold fermented dough can last.  I did have a short room temperature bulk with the 11-day  milk kefir poolish extra dough ball and also the 6 hr. market ferment time, so I would think this milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough could go for many more days.  The flavor in the crust of the extra dough ball that lasted for 11 days was the best.

In my next attempt, I will use 1.5% honey.  I will watch to see how the bottom crust browns. I have extra regular pizza screens at market, so I could use them if the crust starts to brown too quickly. Thanks for your help with the honey. 

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #162 on: November 26, 2010, 09:53:16 AM »
This is the new formula for my next attempt on the milk kefir poolish Lehmann dough.  I am making two dough balls again.  This time I am not going to let the extra dough ball bulk ferment at all and see how many days a dough ball can cold ferment, until it has to be made into a pizza. 

Norma
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 09:55:35 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #163 on: November 26, 2010, 10:47:12 PM »
These are pictures of how my milk kefir poolish looked today after I mixed it and after it had developed, before I mixed the milk kefir poolish into the final dough, that also had honey added to it.  The last two pictures are after I had divided the dough and balled, and then put the one extra one in the refrigerator to see how long it will last.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #164 on: November 27, 2010, 10:27:19 AM »
Norma,

When Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I designed the preferment dough calculating tool, we did not include honey as a sugar choice because we wanted to keep the tool as close as possible to naturally leavened doughs such as authentic Neapolitan doughs. The sugar and oil choices were added for those who want to make such doughs in a home environment using a standard oven. However, although you will sometimes read about how to convert an amount of sugar to honey and vice versa, according to member November, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6372.msg54612/topicseen.html#msg54612, it is fine to substitute honey for sugar on an equal weight basis. In the dough formulation you posted, for example, a weight of 8.37 grams of sugar would convert to [8.37/28.35)]/0.2467 = 1.2 teaspoons, or roughly 1 1/4 teaspoons, of honey. It sounds like you used both table sugar and honey, so your total sugar content will be higher than the dough formulation you posted suggests.

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #165 on: November 27, 2010, 03:32:59 PM »
Norma,

When Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I designed the preferment dough calculating tool, we did not include honey as a sugar choice because we wanted to keep the tool as close as possible to naturally leavened doughs such as authentic Neapolitan doughs. The sugar and oil choices were added for those who want to make such doughs in a home environment using a standard oven. However, although you will sometimes read about how to convert an amount of sugar to honey and vice versa, according to member November, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6372.msg54612/topicseen.html#msg54612, it is fine to substitute honey for sugar on an equal weight basis. In the dough formulation you posted, for example, a weight of 8.37 grams of sugar would convert to [8.37/28.35)]/0.2467 = 1.2 teaspoons, or roughly 1 1/4 teaspoons, of honey. It sounds like you used both table sugar and honey, so your total sugar content will be higher than the dough formulation you posted suggests.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít add honey and sugar, but thought I would just add honey under sugar (because I didn't see any place to calculate honey in the preferment dough calculating tool.  As November posted, the dough should be okay if I just substituted honey for sugar.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #166 on: November 29, 2010, 10:06:46 AM »
These are pictures and some explanations of how the three doughs balls with the milk kefir poolish are doing.  The first two pictures are of how the dough ball with the milk kefir poolish and honey look, top and bottom, this morning. I did reball that dough ball Saturday, because it had bubbles on the top.  I thought it might be to overfermented to use for Tuesday, so that is why I reballed it, to help distribute the sugars. 

The second dough ball with the milk kefir poolish (with honey added), made in the same batch of dough as the first dough ball, was put into the refrigerator right after balling.  It looks like it is cold fermenting slowly, this morning. I wonder how long that dough ball will last, until I have to bake it into a pizza. It looks promising to me that it will last awhile before it will have to be make into a pizza.

The third dough ball, is the bagel dough I had tried before with the milk kefir poolish.  I also reballed that dough ball yesterday. I made the bagel dough ball on Saturday.  I posted about that dough ball under Marcís thread on Fairmount bagels. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg118376.html#msg118376  If the bagel dough works okay for a pizza tomorrow, I will post under Marcís thread, and just link back to the thread here.  The bagel dough ball also looks and feels interesting to me.

Pictures below,

Norma


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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #167 on: November 30, 2010, 11:37:18 PM »
Steve (Ev) and I made the pizza with the milk kefir poolish with added honey today.  The pizza turned out well.  The crust did brown more than my last attempt, but I donít think it still browned enough.  The pizza did have good oven spring and did taste good.  I wonder if adding more honey would be the next thing to try. I also am curious why some parts of this crust turned browner that other areas. No screen was needed for this pizza in the bake.

Pictures below

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #168 on: November 30, 2010, 11:38:56 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #169 on: November 30, 2010, 11:40:49 PM »
more pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #170 on: November 30, 2010, 11:43:00 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #171 on: November 30, 2010, 11:58:46 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how much honey you used by weight and/or by volume?

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #172 on: December 01, 2010, 12:05:08 AM »
Norma,

Can you tell me how much honey you used by weight and/or by volume?

Peter

Peter,

I used 8.37 grams of Wildflower Honey in the formula I posted at Reply 162 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118238.html#msg118238.

Norma

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #173 on: December 01, 2010, 12:12:23 AM »
Norma,

Was this the best of the milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizzas?

Peter

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Re: Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough
« Reply #174 on: December 01, 2010, 12:21:36 AM »
Norma,

Was this the best of the milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, this was the best of the milk kefir Lehmann poolish pizzas.  The taste of the crust keeps getting better each week.  I don't know if I am understanding how the milk kefir poolish works in a dough, or if am fermenting or handling the dough better.  Each week I learn more.

Norma


 

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