Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

As between the two dry milk powders, I would go with the non-fat dry milk. If that works, at some future date you might want to try the dry buttermilk powder for its potential flavor contribution.

It might be a good idea to call Dutch Valley just to know what you have. If the non-fat milk powder is not baker's grade you might still be able to use it as is, as I mentioned earlier, or you can reconstitute it in some of the formula water, heat it, cool it, and then use it.

You might also ask the Dutch Valley folks if they know of anyone near you that might stock dried dairy whey that you can approach to buy some. I have spoken with Dutch Valley before and they were very nice and helpful.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

As between the two dry milk powders, I would go with the non-fat dry milk. If that works, at some future date you might want to try the dry buttermilk powder for its potential flavor contribution.

It might be a good idea to call Dutch Valley just to know what you have. If the non-fat milk powder is not baker's grade you might still be able to use it as is, as I mentioned earlier, or you can reconstitute it in some of the formula water, heat it, cool it, and then use it.

You might also ask the Dutch Valley folks if they know of anyone near you that might stock dried dairy whey that you can approach to buy some. I have spoken with Dutch Valley before and they were very nice and helpful.

Peter

Peter,

I will call Dutch Valley to make sure the non-fat dry milk is baker’s grade.  I also will asked them if anyone near me sells dairy whey.

Thanks,

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I did send Tom Lehmann a detailed report about the milk keifr dough and all that we have tried for crust coloration and the amounts of milk kefir poolish we have tried.  This is what Tom Lehmann answered me this morning.

Norma

Re: Crust Coloration?
Sent: 14 Dec 2010 14:04
by Tom Lehmann

Norma;
When was the last time you ever saw anything but a very light color on any type of sourdough bread? Now be honest! I bet you're thinking.......never. You're right, the acidity of your ferment is inhibiting the browning of the crust. Yes, you could load the dough up with honey, malt, or even sucrose, but al you're going to achieve is a sweet tasting crust, and that ain't what your crust is all about. You could possibly get some color by increasing, not decreasing the oven temperature (I'm thinking in the 750 to 850F range), but then you may not be able to bake the rest of the pizza decently, plus, you're going to need a wood burning oven to reach those temperatures. So, what to do, what to do? I do agree with Peter that adding whey might help, but you're going to be looking at adding something in the 8 to 10% range, possibly more. Or, how about putting on a topical colorant? I'm thinking a milk wash, brush some whole milk on the edge of the pizza just before you put it into the oven. If that doesn't work, lets up the ante and try brushing on some lightly beaten whole egg (egg wash). If that makes it too dark, begin cutting the egg wash with some of the milk that you have lefy over from the milk wash, this should give you a lighter color, and hopefully, some blend of milk and whole egg may do the trick. Also, be sure to try brushing on some olive oil just before placing the pizza in the oven.
Please let me know if any of this works for you.
Have a very Merry Christmas!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

That was nice of Tom to respond as he did, and so promptly. I hadn't been thinking of topical treatments but Tom's post reminded me of a topical approach that November once wrote about, at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4170.msg34803/topicseen.html#msg34803.

It would be interesting nonetheless to see what using dried dairy whey and dry non-fat milk powder would do.

Most of our members who make naturally leavened doughs have tended to specialize in the Neapolitan style using very high temperature ovens. And their doughs have not gone through a five-day window like yours. Off the top of my head, I am hard pressed to remember someone using a non-Neapolitan style dough with a natural leavening system and a five-day window.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

That was nice of Tom to respond as he did, and so promptly. I hadn't been thinking of topical treatments but Tom's post reminded me of a topical approach that November once wrote about, at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4170.msg34803/topicseen.html#msg34803.

It would be interesting nonetheless to see what using dried dairy whey and dry non-fat milk powder would do.

Most of our members who make naturally leavened doughs have tended to specialize in the Neapolitan style using very high temperature ovens. And their doughs have not gone through a five-day window like yours. Off the top of my head, I am hard pressed to remember someone using a non-Neapolitan style dough with a natural leavening system and a five-day window.

Peter

Peter,

I also thought Tom Lehmann was very kind to even answer my questions and he also answered so promptly.  He even told me to report back to him if I get different results.  Tom Lehmann has helped me many times.

Thanks you for referencing November’s post.  I never saw that post before or even thought of mixing honey with milk to get better crust coloration.

If I ever have the chance to try out this dough in a WFO, it would be interesting to see if this dough would brown without anything added.  If I ever get to Fred’s or Steve’s, I would like to try this same dough out in their WFO’s and see what would  happen.  I could believe that the same formula would brown, without anymore additions, but I know I will have to stick with trying to add something to help with coloration in my deck oven.

Do you want me to stay with the plan of adding  4% non-fat dry milk, by the weight of flour for my next attempt?

I will call Dutch Valley either tomorrow or Thursday to see if the non-fat milk is baker’s grade and also ask them about if someone near me sells dairy whey.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you want me to stay with the plan of adding  4% non-fat dry milk, by the weight of flour for my next attempt?

Norma,

Yes, I think I would. However, if you are able to find a local source of dried dairy whey, that would be my first choice, simply because that ingredient is best known for its ability to contribute to crust coloration without affecting sweetness despite its 70% lactose (milk sugar) content. The corresponding figure for dry non-fat milk powder is around 50%. (For a neat chart on lactose content of many milk products, see http://www.stevecarper.com/li/list_of_lactose_percentages.htm.)

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Yes, I think I would. However, if you are able to find a local source of dried dairy whey, that would be my first choice, simply because that ingredient is best known for its ability to contribute to crust coloration without affecting sweetness despite its 70% lactose (milk sugar) content. The corresponding figure for dry non-fat milk powder is around 50%. (For a neat chart on lactose content of many milk products, see http://www.stevecarper.com/li/list_of_lactose_percentages.htm.)

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the chart on lactose content of many milk products.  That is a neat chart.  I will reference to in the future when I need it. 

I will let you know what I find out about finding dairy whey.

On a unrelated note, not having to with this dough, but with milk kefir.  I now have enough milk kefir to feed to my outside cats and kittens.  Now even a possum is coming for cat food and milk keifr.  I would have thought that the possum would have been hibernating now, but I guess since he has food, he is not going to hibernate.  It is very cold in our area.  All these stay cats, kittens, and now a possum are going to eat me out of house and home.     The cats, kittens and possum are all friends now.   

Picture of possum eating the other night and picture of a few of the kittens. 
Sorry the pictures are a little dark, but it was dark outside.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I called Dutch Valley and the customer representative said that she isn’t sure if the non-fat dry is a bakers grade or not.  She said it was from a private label company.  I asked her about whey powder or dairy whey and she said they carry All Dairy blend, which is a blend of: whey solids, skim milk solids, and buttermilk solids, by Land of Lakes. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/129fb46d-3f5f-43a0-8aef-39f33e4d8a70  I then asked her if she knew who sold the All Dairy blend in my area.  She gave me loads of names of stores, but I know some of the stores don’t carry the All Dairy Blend.  It might take me a few days to call all the stores she gave me.  Do you know anything about Land of Lakes All Dairy blend, and it I find some, do you think that would work?  I told the sales rep, that I just wanted to try a small amount out in my pizza dough to see if I could get better crust coloration.  A 50 lb. bag at retail would cost around 147.00.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Yes, I am aware of the Dairy Blend, having investigated that product in connection with an old dough recipe that Pizza Hut used for one of its doughs. I discussed same at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8791.msg76201/topicseen.html#msg76201. The Dairy Blend would perhaps work but I would rather that you try the other options first.

I don't want you to be calling all over the place looking for dairy whey. You might use the dry non-fat milk powder for now and see how that goes. For your information, I noticed that the non-fat milk product that Dutch Valley carries comes from Hormel. So, I did a Google search and found a list of the Hormel dairy products at a Hormel website at http://www.hormelingredients.com/dairy/. I then called a telephone number I found on the website and spoke to a very nice lady named Jennifer in Illinois who gave me the cell number of her counterpart in the eastern part of the country. I was told that you could get samples of about a pound each of dry non-fat milk powder and dried dairy whey in baker's grade (high heat) form by calling Cheryl at 908-507-6905. Apparently, Dutch Valley is her account.

I told Jennifer that I was helping a friend in the pizza business so, as a business person, you should be able to properly request a sample rather than having to concoct a tall tale to get the products, as I would have to do. But, I will leave the matter entirely to your discretion. I did not give any details about your business other than to say that you would like to test the two dairy products in an effort to improve the color of the crusts of your pizzas and wanted to use the high-heat versions of the products. I was told that it is also possible to request samples from the website referenced above but it might be quicker just to ask Cheryl for them, which I was told is an acceptable approach. The impression I got from Jennifer is that the Dutch Valley non-fat dry milk was the low heat version, although she wasn't entirely certain. I believe that version would have to be reconstituted and heated to disable the offending component.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thank you for finding out that the non-fat milk product that Dutch Valley carries comes from Hormel.  I wonder why the customer service rep. didn’t know that today, when I called her.  I also wonder why the customer service rep. didn’t know they carry dried dairy whey in baker’s grade at Dutch Valley.  I did speak to her for a long while and she did seem helpful.

I also want to thank you for going to the bother of doing a Google search and calling the number listed under Hormel’s website.  I will call Cheryl tomorrow and see if she will send me samples to try in my dough.  I would like to get some samples of dry non-fat milk powder and dried dairy whey in baker’s grade to try first, before I go about trying to scald the non-fat dry milk I purchased Monday. I remember when I had scalded milk before in my other thread. I can use the non-fat dry milk to try and freeze some milk kefir grains.  I read if someone wants to freeze milk kefir grains, they can be frozen if they are washed off in water first and then frozen in dried milk.  At least I can experiment and see if the milk kefir grains can be frozen. 

I will let you know if I can get samples.

Norma

[norma427]

The milk kefir dough ball I made 11/26/2010 is still cold fermenting.  These are two pictures of the dough ball top and bottom, taken today.  I wonder what is the longest time any member has cold fermented a dough ball here on the forum.  The dough ball still looks fine with no dark spotting on the top.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I wonder what is the longest time any member has cold fermented a dough ball here on the forum. 

Norma,

For me, it was 23 days. However, you may want to contain your enthusiasm. Not long ago, I decided to make a dough that could last in the refrigerator for about three weeks. I did everything I could do to achieve that result. I used cold water right out of the refrigerator, I used a small amount of ADY that was mixed dry into the flour, I used 2.5% salt (which is very high for me), I kneaded everthing as usual until I got the normal dough consistency, and I even refrigerated my glass storage container before putting the dough ball into it. I did, however, let the dough sit at room temperature for about 15-20 minutes before putting it into the cold glass storage container in order to get some fermentation going. I did this because I had read that even dough that is to be frozen, or dough that is to be held for several days before using (such as the Papa John's dough balls delivered to their stores), requires some fermentation.

I used the poppy seed trick to monitor the dough's expansion during the cold fermentation. It took some while for the dough to start to expand. After about Day 7, the poppy seeds spacing indicated an expansion of about 31%. By Day 13, the expansion according to the poppy seed spacing was about 81%. From Day 13 to Day 21, there was no further expansion indicated by the poppy seeds. Over the course of the fermentation, the top of the dough turned gray, which was normal and expected, but it was only the top surface, not the parts of the dough in contact with the sides and bottom of the storage container. The dough has slumped and spread and there was some minor fermentation bubbles. At Day 21, I decided to end the test and to use the dough to make a pizza. On the bench, after letting the dough warm up a bit, the dough opened up in normal fashion and looked and felt normal (even the grayish tinge disappeared). However, the pizza itself was a failure. The crust did not brown well and it was soggy in the middle. And there was not normal oven spring. I think this was the only pizza that I have ever made that I had to throw away without eating it. I still think about what wrong from time to time but only have some theories at this point. I'm sure that at some time my curiosity will compel me to run another test with changes that might fix the problem.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

Thanks for telling me what was the longest time you cold fermented a dough ball and how you went about trying to keep the dough ball from fermenting too fast.  Although I didn’t use the “poppy seed” trick for this experiment, I can see the dough has flattened a little.  It is interesting to hear you had to throw that pizza away because it didn’t bake well or have oven spring.  It would be interesting to hear what results you would get, if you tried the experiment again. 

I don’t know what effect milk keifr will have in this dough and don’t know how this dough ball will bake into a pizza.  There are no gray spots are speckles on this dough ball.  The dough ball is in a sealed container without any holes in the lid.  The container is a rubbermaid sevein savor 1.4 qt., that is heavy plastic.  The only time this dough ball gets air is when I occasionally check it.  I guess time will tell if this dough ball will be able to be baked into a pizza.  By Tuesday this dough ball will be 25 days old.  Do you think then I should try to bake this dough ball into a pizza or wait longer?  I am not enthusiast as of today, but if I see the pizza baking okay, then I will be. 

I did another experiment on the preferment Lehmann dough, but will report about that on my other thread.

BTW, I did call Cheryl this morning and she said she had to call Dutch Valley to see if they carried either of these products of dried dairy whey or non-fat milk powder.  I had to act like then I would buy either of the products if they worked for coloration, from Dutch Valley.  I asked her if Dutch Valley doesn’t sell either of these products then what would happen about the samples.  She said I then would have to set-up an account when her and buy the products directly from them.  I said I could understand and would do that, if the samples worked.  Cheryl even said she had other ideas for helping get crust coloration.  I will wait for a call back.

Norma

[norma427]

I just wanted to note what milk kefir I have left in the refrigerator for 3 weeks looks like also tastes like.  It still looks the same as when I placed it into the refrigerator and still tastes the same.  Another thing I wanted to note was I left some milk kefir grains ferment in the same milk for one week.  I took the milk kefir grains out last evening and took a few smalls ones out to freeze. When they are dried, I will place them in the non-fat dry milk. 

1.  Picture of milk kefir left in the refrigerator for 3 weeks.
2.  Picture of milk kefir grains to be dried out last evening.
3.  Picture of milk kefir grains this morning drying out.

After these few milk kefir grains dry out, I am going to place them in the non-fat dry milk and then will see in a month are two, if they can be used to make milk kefir again.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

By Tuesday this dough ball will be 25 days old.  Do you think then I should try to bake this dough ball into a pizza or wait longer?

Norma,

You might want to give it a try on Tuesday. Even though you say you may have a gut of steel (Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg119950.html#msg119950), it might be prudent nonetheless to heed the admonition that November gives at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41468/topicseen.html#msg41468.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

You might want to give it a try on Tuesday. Even though you say you may have a gut of steel (Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg119950.html#msg119950), it might be prudent nonetheless to heed the admonition that November gives at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41468/topicseen.html#msg41468.

Peter

Peter,

I do sometimes think I have a gut of steel, because nothing I seem to try to eat gives me any problems, at least not yet.    Even my mother at 88 years old can eat anything and not have problems.  My father would eat the weirdest things, including eating poison ivy, when he was young to get rid of the poison ivy he had.   I don’t know if I inherited the immune system from my parents, but believe I might have.

I will heed November’s warning though and try to bake the older dough ball into a pizza on Tuesday.  He really knows about everything, so I sure don’t want to end up in the hospital.

Thanks for referencing November’s post.

Norma

[norma427]

Picture of the almost dried out milk kefir grains.

Norma

[norma427]

This is a picture of the dried milk kefir grains put into the non-fat dry milk, before placing them in the freezer.

To note as of today, I didn't receive a call-back from Cheryl.

Norma

[norma427]

This post is to note how the milk kefir dough balls looks today and how it smells.  To me the milk keifr dough ball I made at Reply 163 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118294.html#msg118294
and posted about in Rely 166 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118487.html#msg118487 does still look like it isn’t fermenting very much.  I wanted to note with a picture, what kind of container I used to cold ferment this milk kefir dough ball.  The smell of the dough ball is good, with no speckling or dark spots.  I think this dough ball has been cold fermenting for a long time.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

The pizza was made today out of the 25 day old cold fermented milk kefir dough ball. I let the dough warm-up for about three hours.  I didn’t have a lot of hope for this dough ball to be turned into a pizza.  I couldn’t see much rise in this dough ball in the 3 hour warm-up.  When I opened the dough ball it didn’t have a lot of bubbles in the skin. The dough ball was easy to open. When the pizza was place into the oven, the rim didn’t seem to rise very fast.

The finished pizza did have a good complex taste in the crust and even browned, although it seem to brown in spots.  I can’t figure out why it browned in spots, but at least it did brown. 

Steve and I gave some of our taste testers slices of this pizza and they thought it was good.  Even one customer asked about the pizza and we gave him a slice. He thought the crust did have a good complex taste in the crust.  We told him it was a dough ball cold fermented for 25 days.  He then wanted to give his wife a slice, so we gave him a slice for his wife.  Steve and I thought the crust did have a little sourdough taste, but we thought it was good. 

Miracles do happen.

We had two different Santas that visited Steve and me today.  I guess Santa knew I wanted this dough ball to turn into an okay pizza. 

Pictures below,

Norma