Author Topic: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'  (Read 14515 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2010, 06:36:08 PM »
Matt,

Thanks, bro! Thank God I saved the formula, too  ;D

It was topped with ham, spinach, garlic and some tuna. Don't laugh...I was just using stuff I had in my pantry.


Hey; whatever works.  I've learned that it's easier to find something if you don't look for it.


Online thezaman

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2010, 06:39:20 PM »
  i tasted the crust and it had a crunch upon folding , not a lot of flavor ,very lite . to me it seemed like there was shortning or lard in the dough .the texture was very different. i will do better research next trip. if as pete stated he is using his oven as a proofin cabinet i can see a three hour dough.  there wasn't a heavy yeast taste that you would have with a short rise dough.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2010, 06:39:37 PM »
Quote
Mike, maybe this latest crust you made is better than Dom's crust.  Maybe your Di fara clone is a better pizza. I'm sure Dom makes a great pie, but I'm not sure it's that much better than some of our members are making.  

I'm flattered by your confidence in me but I really doubt that I would be able to compete with Dom in any shape or form given the fact the he has more than 40 years of pizza making under his belt.

And I don't know if what I cobbled together last night qualifies as a clone, per se. Looks-wise, maybe. Taste-wise...I really don't know.

Anyway, here's a cool pic of the amount of cheese he uses.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 06:41:09 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2010, 06:46:41 PM »
Wow! look at the patina that peel has...

Offline Essen1

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2010, 06:48:22 PM »
Quote
i tasted the crust and it had a crunch upon folding , not a lot of flavor ,very lite .

That describes the crust from last night to the T. Here are the numbers if anyone wants to take a shot at it:

Flour (100%):    428.05 g  |  15.1 oz | 0.94 lbs
Water (65%):    278.23 g  |  9.81 oz | 0.61 lbs
IDY (.6%):    2.57 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.56 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Oil (4%):    17.12 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.8 tsp | 1.27 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp

Total (173.1%):   740.95 g | 26.14 oz | 1.63 lbs | TF = N/A

Single Ball:   370.47 g | 13.07 oz | 0.82 lbs


Dissolve sugar and salt in the water (temp ~ 85įF), add the flour and yeast and start the mixer. Once it is starting to come together let the oil run down the side of the bowl (got that from Evelyne Slomon) until no dry flour is visible. Rest for 20 then mix for about 8 mins.

Take out of the bowl, divide, cover with a damp tea towel and let rest for 90 mins or up to two full hours. Dust with flour, flip over and shape into skins.

And that's pretty much it.  ;)
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2010, 06:52:32 PM »
From the looks of the dough it looks to have a good amount of oil to it as well.  Around 3-4% oil???  If he indeed is fermenting only 2 hours or so, then he's using A LOT of yeast.    I also have my doubts that he is using 100% AP flour. 

Chau and Mike,

When I researched the matter, Dom's dough had no oil in it. His flour was a blend of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and high-gluten flour, most likely All Trumps. On occasion, Dom will use other sources for his products, but if he has gone to all-purpose flour the only reason that I can come up with is that he is cheapening the product to milk it for all that it is worth. It sounds like he is transitioning the business to a different business model for the benefit of his family, with an example being the apparent opening of a DiFara's in Vegas.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2010, 06:53:03 PM »
Mike that is a cool picture.  

Thanks Larry, maybe there are others who will chime in about what they remember of Dom's crust.  a 2-3 hour dough just doesn't seem like it would be ideal for a commercial setting.  What did he do when  the kids were too young to make dough for him?  Close down every 2-3 hours to make more dough?   a 6-8 hour dough would make more sense to me.   Dom doesn't seem like a guy who would change his routine much.  Not to say that he hasn't, but it's more likely that he's been doing the same thing over the last 40 years.  Either way his dough is very fermented like Roberto's dough.  The only way I have been able to get away with that is with commercial yeast.   Also the thinness of the crust plus a 6-8 min bake time would give a really crunchy and dry crust unless it had a lot of oil in it and perhaps a moderately hydrated dough.  

The combination of the proper texture of crust plus the right amount of a good sauce with the right amount of a gooey cheese and I can see why the masses are line up.  

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2010, 06:53:47 PM »
That describes the crust from last night to the T. Here are the numbers if anyone wants to take a shot at it:

Flour (100%):    428.05 g  |  15.1 oz | 0.94 lbs
Water (65%):    278.23 g  |  9.81 oz | 0.61 lbs
IDY (.6%):    2.57 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.85 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.56 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Oil (4%):    17.12 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.8 tsp | 1.27 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp

Total (173.1%):   740.95 g | 26.14 oz | 1.63 lbs | TF = N/A

Single Ball:   370.47 g | 13.07 oz | 0.82 lbs


Dissolve sugar and salt in the water (temp ~ 85įF), add the flour and yeast and start the mixer. Once it is starting to come together let the oil run down the side of the bowl (got that from Evelyne Slomon) until no dry flour is visible. Rest for 20 then mix for about 8 mins.

Take out of the bowl, divide, cover with a damp tea towel and let rest for 90 mins or up to two full hours. Dust with flour, flip over and shape into skins.

And that's pretty much it.  ;)

Mike,

Your pie does really look like Dom's.   ;D  What kind of flour did you use in your formula?  I wonder if next week if I mix Caputo and Kyrol and turn my oven up, if I can something near your results.  I have never tried a 18" pie, but might give it a go.

Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2010, 06:56:48 PM »
Chau and Mike,

When I researched the matter, Dom's dough had no oil in it. His flour was a blend of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and high-gluten flour, most likely All Trumps. On occasion, Dom will use other sources for his products, but if he has gone to all-purpose flour the only reason that I can come up with is that he is cheapening the product to milk it for all that it is worth. It sounds like he is transitioning the business to a different business model for the benefit of his family, with an example being the apparent opening of a DiFara's in Vegas.

Peter

Peter that would make sense for Dom to change things up if that is his motivation.   As far as the oil goes, my gues that it's high in oil comes from watching the interview video.  it could be the light, but the dough (from what I remember) had a slight yellow tint to it indicating coloration from oil.  Also the way it stretched out and considering how thin the crust is with a 6-8m bake time.  If there isn't oil, the crust should be dry and crunchy all the way through.  If there is a soft center to that crust, then that should be indication of the presence of oil or a highly hydrated dough.  That is my best guest though.  I could be completely wrong.   A crumb shot could also reveal a few things.

Mike - thanks for posting your recipe.  It sounds like a good recipe from the looks of it.  I'll give it a try. 

Chau
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 07:00:12 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2010, 06:58:51 PM »
Mike,

Your pie does really look like Dom's.   ;D  What kind of flour did you use in your formula?  I wonder if next week if I mix Caputo and Kyrol and turn my oven up, if I can something near your results.  I have never tried a 18" pie, but might give it a go.

Norma

Norma,

I used King Arthur BF. I might give the AP flour a shot even though I'm not a big fan of it at all. Or perhaps a blend of 60/40 in favor of KABF.

It would be interesting to see how an 18" pie works in your oven.
Mike

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Offline norma427

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2010, 07:05:08 PM »
Norma,

I used King Arthur BF. I might give the AP flour a shot even though I'm not a big fan of it at all. Or perhaps a blend of 60/40 in favor of KABF.

It would be interesting to see how an 18" pie works in your oven.

Mike,

Thanks for telling me what kind of flour you used.  I do have access to Caputo Pizzeria Flour and Kyrol, which is something like All Trumps.  My deck oven can go above 675 degrees F.  I don't know if I can handle a 18" pie though.  :-D

Good luck to you when you try another pizza.  :)

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2010, 07:16:49 PM »
If there isn't oil, the crust should be dry and crunchy all the way through.  If there is a soft center to that crust, then that should be indication of the presence of oil or a highly hydrated dough.

Chau,

When I was working on the DiFara's clone, I calculated that Dom's dough had a hydration of around 65%. Dom uses volume measurements so it is hard to be precise on matters such as hydration. It seemed to me that I read somewhere, maybe from something that scott r posted, that Dom's oven doesn't get to 750 degrees F but still runs hotter than the deck ovens that most pizza operators use. It seems that I also read that Dom's pizzas take more than seven minutes to bake.

When I conduct reverse engineering projects, I don't like to speculate. I look for hard facts. Otherwise, I am just guessing. I would rather wait for the facts to emerge before doing anything. There is a lot of misinformation on the Internet, often from people who don't really know what they are talking about, that I tend to be suspicious of reports that seem to me to be contrary to what I know or common sense tells me. If one of our members who lives and dies for pizzas were reporting, I would pay much closer attention.

Peter

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2010, 07:33:54 PM »
This is the post that I recalled where scott r speculated on the oven temperature that Dom uses: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5903.msg50611/topicseen.html#msg50611.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2010, 07:49:13 PM »
Peter,

Since you have actually been to Domís and know what his crust looked like, here are a few videos for you or anyone that is interested.  I donít know if these videos were posted before or not.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEWMOZAA8Aw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEWMOZAA8Aw</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNKeF5gNh1E&amp;NR=1" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNKeF5gNh1E&amp;NR=1</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI3QxE4o4oo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI3QxE4o4oo</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnO5-cmdpSU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnO5-cmdpSU</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfT6pejh-eA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfT6pejh-eA</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAqcAq-7RbI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAqcAq-7RbI</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttg-Me3GmOI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttg-Me3GmOI</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ebf6gD-UyU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ebf6gD-UyU</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVh5wAmtj2I" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVh5wAmtj2I</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH536D9eNxk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH536D9eNxk</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAolCtDMTu4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAolCtDMTu4</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8-w-CKsJw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT8-w-CKsJw</a>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1DMzK5dE80 (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZUCvRA-e0E (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIkJCtnHIHY (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2vDR3B2IZo (Embedding disabled, limit reached) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTcbMyItxjk (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKdrGVKDJfc (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

Norma
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:39:51 PM by norma427 »
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Online thezaman

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2010, 07:55:12 PM »
 all i can say is i was shocked at how light the dough was. maybe a lower protein flour caused it .
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 08:07:30 PM by thezaman »

Offline norma427

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2010, 08:10:25 PM »
A few more videos

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWXYXM-MhM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWXYXM-MhM</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XynVVH1ZPZo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XynVVH1ZPZo</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cedeiAdvkoI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cedeiAdvkoI</a>


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzOhO_Rn6i8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzOhO_Rn6i8</a>


Norma
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2010, 08:13:32 PM »
Just curious, how did you and other members determine that there isn't oil in Dom's dough.  Is this from an inside source?


Okay, I guess I'll answer my own question.  I was just now reading through the reverse engineering di fara thread and found this from PFTaylor.  Reply #70

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,504.60.html

"Two parts flour to one part water with a coffee cup and a half of salt and a piece of fresh yeast. That is his recipe."

Chau

Whoa - not sure what  I just did.  I thought I was quoting myself but somehow erase my old post.  Basically said that you are right Peter about speculation.  That's why I said earlier I wouldn't try to replicate his dough without the first hand input and descriptions, along with crumb shots from mulitple members.   I then inquired about how you and other members determined that Dom doesn't use oil in his formulation but have since found the answer in you thread to which I noted above.   Okay....back to the regular program.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:17:03 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2010, 08:16:23 PM »
all i can say is i was shocked at how light the dough was. maybe a lower protein flour caused it .

That's basically what the guy said in the video link I posted earlier. He said Dom uses AP flour which generates a very light crust, according to the man.

But it is all very speculative and since I have never been there, I can't really comment any further. But common sense tells me that perhaps a flour blend of maybe AP and some BF might work in a home oven, together with a high hydration and perhaps some oil.

Mike

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2010, 08:23:41 PM »
all i can say is i was shocked at how light the dough was. maybe a lower protein flour caused it .

Perhaps but the majority of the lightest breads and pizza doughs I have made have come from my Con Agra's HG bleached and bromated flour.   The lightness in the crumb can come from several sources, but from my experiments I have found it to come from.

-a relatively young dough made with commercial yeast.
-a moderate to well hydrated dough relative to the protein content.
-proper or enough gluten developed into the dough.  Good strength but not too much or you can get a toughen texture.
-well proofed but again not too much as the acids can/will start to toughen the crumb.  Oil can mitigate this.
-baked well to bake the moisture out from the higher hydration, but not too much as to dry the crumb out.  Again oil can help mitigate this. 

This is all relative of course.  Balance all these factors out and you get a light crumb regardless of the type of flour.  I have been able to also do this with different strengths of flour as well. 

Chau
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:05:09 PM by Jackie Tran »

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Re: Watch the Di Fara Documentary 'The Best Thing I Ever Done'
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2010, 09:13:11 PM »
Just curious, how did you and other members determine that there isn't oil in Dom's dough.  Is this from an inside source?

Chau,

Dom told me. Everything I reported on the dough and the pizzas came either from Dom or from my own eyes. From the videos that Norma referenced, I can see that Dom went to other sources for some of his ingredients, like the oil (Colavita) and tomatoes. Some pizzas looked like they had lighter crusts but I did not think to check the dates of the videos to see if the pizzas were recent or not.

Peter