Author Topic: Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help  (Read 1190 times)

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Offline magiuspendragon

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Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help
« on: October 24, 2010, 10:33:29 AM »
I've tried a handful of times to make pizzas, but I seem to be having trouble with the final shaping of the crust. I'm not sure if my issue is with the kneed, the rising time(s), or my shaping technique.

Symptoms
  • Dough tears easily
  • Dough springs back easily
  • Dough develops thin spots / holes in the center, while the rim stayed thick
  • Crust (post-baking) is relatively chewy (if anything too much so)

Dough Formulation
I've tried a few different formulations and crust styles. The two I've tried most recently and have been the most happy with are the following:
A varient of Pete-zza's Hand-kneed formulation
  • 100% KA Bread Flour -- I don't have access to KASL, so I used bread flour instead
  • 63% Water -- Since I was hand mixing, I tried 79 deg f. water.
  • 1.75% Salt -- I'm using Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt
  • 1% Olive Oil
  • .25% IDY -- I'm using oekter brand IDY

The final weights were calculated using a TF of .11 (I was trying to make it thicker to fix some of the symptoms from an earlier attemp) for 3 12" pizzas.

I've also tried DKM's Chicago-style pizza dough that he posted in that video:
  • 100% KA APF -- I think this recipe called for APF, so I tried it with this
  • 55% Water -- Same temp as above (this was made on the same day)
  • 1.5% ADY -- This was Fleischmann's brand
  • 1% Salt -- same as above
  • 15% Corn Oil
This one had less issue with tearing, but was still too springy to really pull up the side of the pan, so there was some issue there. The final weights were calculated using a .13 TF for a 9" pan.

Method
  • Both doughs were made the same day, Saturday afternoon
  • Flour, Salt and (unproofed)Yeast were mixed into a bowl
  • Water and Oil were combined and poured on top, mixed by hand
  • Spent a few minutes kneeding, until dough wasn't sticking to my hands
  • Dough went straight into the fridge in the bowl, covered by a towel for 12 hours
  • 12 hours later, both balls were brought out and raised to room temperature for 2 hours.
  • Balls were then portioned (in the case of the NY style) and shaped into boulles. One of hte NY balls was used immediately and the rest were placed in ziplock bags with some olive oil and went back into the fridge
  • Any of the dough that went back into the fridge was brought back up to room temperature for 4-5 hours before re-shaping (since hte dough had spread out, I reshaped into boulles)
  • Once shaped, the dough was rested for 15-20 mins
  • The dough was then shaped by hand to form the crust and topped, resting for another 15 mins while the oven preheated to 450. (In retrospect, this probably contributed to it sticking ot the peel, but that's a different issue :p)
The Chicago-style ball was used 2 days after creation (on Monday)
The NY balls: One was used the next day, one was used 4 days later (on Wednesday), one was used 6 days later (on Friday).

A couple other notes, which may affect feedback:
  • My schedule doesn't always allow for me to make dough the night before it's used. I'd prefer dough that can be made on the weekend and used during the week.
  • I do not have, nor can I afford, a stand mixer. My food processor is also too small to make dough. I'm stuck with kneeding by hand for the time being
  • I also can't allow for a thawing time of less than 4 hours during the week because of my schedule, unless it's only an hour
  • The last 2 dough balls did have bigger bubbles (which I discovered today is probably a sign of overfermentation?) before being reshaped.
  • I mentioned the chewyness of hte crust earlier because my first thought was that the bread was not kneeded enough, but it was chewy which means the gluten should have been fine.
  • My method for shaping by hand (which probably could use improvement) was to start by pulling hte dough into a disk in the air, starting from the center and stretching the rim horizontally. Once it reached 4-5 inches across, I'd put it on the back of my kncuckles and pull outwards against the rim.
Any feedback on how to make sure my dough is easier to shape and doesn't tear? If I have to only make pizza on the weekends (when the scheduling is much more flexible), then I shall, but I'd like to have it during the week too!. Any feedback is appreciated.


Offline scott123

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Re: Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2010, 12:35:01 PM »
Nix the re-shaping.  Just make the dough, form the dough balls, refrigerate, allow to warm up and then form.

Offline magiuspendragon

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Re: Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2010, 02:31:20 PM »
Alright I'll try that out and update this week.

Offline scott123

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Re: Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2010, 02:54:03 PM »
Sounds good.

Also, you might want to work on your forming technique.  Generally speaking, you don't want to start dough in the air nor do you ever want to pull dough away from the center.  Start the dough on the bench.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>


When I start my dough by poking my fingers into it, I actually like to leave a little mound in the center so that when I start draping it over my knuckles, the center doesn't thin out quite so much.

Offline magiuspendragon

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Re: Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 03:06:13 PM »
That looks really helpful, thanks :)

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 10:49:15 PM »
bread machines make wonderful dough mixers.  ever since i switched to using the one i found in the trash up the road, i've had the most wonderful dough i've ever worked with.  250g balls out to 16" no problem, smooth and uniform as a piece of translucent milkglass

Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline c0mpl3x

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  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Kneeding, Rising and Shaping help
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 10:54:32 PM »
Sounds good.

Also, you might want to work on your forming technique.  Generally speaking, you don't want to start dough in the air nor do you ever want to pull dough away from the center.  Start the dough on the bench.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA

When I start my dough by poking my fingers into it, I actually like to leave a little mound in the center so that when I start draping it over my knuckles, the center doesn't thin out quite so much.


im really tempted to bust out a video of a stretch, ala corporate pizza shop style.  sticky side down, lock the crust.  flip over. stretch more, while pressing down with the palm of your hand, expand your fingers outwards and straight. sorta like 1:35 in video. finger dock the dough (press down, chase air outwards from center in a straight line) and with the side of one hand guiding your crust rim away from the other, spread your fingers down and out slightly. once it's about 60-80% of your size you need, you can either a: toss it b: slap it c: bench stretch it the rest of the way (like you just did) or d: knuckle/hand stretch it, keeping the locked crust outside of your knuckles.
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.


 

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