Differences Neapolitan and New-Haven styles

[scott123]

Unless you are using a 1000 degree wood burning oven, and getting the pies out in 2 minutes, fresh mozz in liquid seems to separate, get wimpy on a pie....

...Now, eaten raw, in a salad....no comparison.  The mooz in whey is a million times better.

Chau manages to frequently prove me wrong with his own hand stretched fior di latte, but I still strongly believe that fior di latte has no place on pizza, even with Neapolitan temps/bake times. In Caprese, absolutely, but never melted. If mozz is going to be melted, then it should be bufala for Neapolitan bake times and low moisture brick for everything else.

Regarding basil and oregano, do NH places allow them in sauces?

[scott r]

at one of my favorite places, sallys, dried herbs are sprinkled on the pizza during forming but they are not put in the sauce.

Chau, for me slice joints and the coal oven pies of NY are closer to neapolitan than new haven pizza.   It comes down to the SUPER blackened bake. It really separates the new haven pizza from all other pizzas.     I found a picture that illustrates both the dried sprinkled herbs, and the type of bake that goes on in new haven.  

[scott r]

as far as the salted "fresh mozzarella" logs that are used at many of the NY pizzerias...  I just tried the restaurant depot house brand "supremo italiano" version this week for some 1.5-2 minute bakes and was quite surprised that its pretty good.  

[gabaghool]

Yeah, scott...that sally's pie is there "plain" pie, right??  Its funny cause their plain is sauce, oil, grated romano and oregano....no garlic, which i found odd.......But, that is one case where oregano is used.

And as far as I know, from talking to people who worked for them, no dried herbs go INTO the sauce.  If they are used, its sprinkled on top of the pie as its made.  The son in law or Frank Pepe told me, when he was alive, that they thought that putting oregano or any dried herb in the sauce would make the sauce go sour......I don't know if its true, but thats what I was told.  Me, I think oregano belongs on pizza like basil belongs on tomatoes.

And yeah, I know the product you are talking about, from restaurant depot...use it in a pinch.  Now, tell me, which melts better, the fresh mozz in whey or this??  To me, no contest.  You would be surprised how many pizza places are switching to this for their fresh mozz.  And its not like its cheaper, it is simply a better cheese to melt....tastes like crap raw though.

Scott123-  Really??  I didn't know that where you stood on fresh mooz...hmm......To tell you the truth, I always thought that fresh buffalo mooz was kind of wasted when you melt it...its meant to be eaten FRESH, as in the same day.  In fact, when I lived in buffalo mooz land in Latina, mooz stores would open at 4 in the afternoon.  But, most days they were out of mozz before the doors were even opened cause so many people came in the back door while they were closed because they didn't want "old" cheese and thats what the mooz would be by 4 in the afternoon!!

So, you don't think that a place like totonnos should be using fresh mozz? (I have a pretty good idea that they really use salted curd from NJ)

[Jackie Tran]

Chau manages to frequently prove me wrong with his own hand stretched fior di latte, but I still strongly believe that fior di latte has no place on pizza, even with Neapolitan temps/bake times. In Caprese, absolutely, but never melted. If mozz is going to be melted, then it should be bufala for Neapolitan bake times and low moisture brick for everything else.

Regarding basil and oregano, do NH places allow them in sauces?

Scott123, can you tell me why fresh mozz shouldn't be used on pizza?  Is this a tradition thing, taste, or what?
It also seems like many NP places use fior di latte over buffala based on difficulty sourcing buffala.  I've seen some places offer both, but the buffala is usually a few dollars more.

Nick I have also heard that bufala is traditionally eaten fresh rather than melted on pizza as well, but don't know how true it is.

This is an interesting video of Totonno's, posted recently by member PizzaBlogger.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=27MgNqQ59Ac

In the video, it looks like fresh mozz is used and they say it is fresh mozz as well.  I'm confused here, is this the salted fresh mozz you guys are talking about or is this fior di latte?  Or is fresh mozz only considered fior Di latte if it comes packed in water?   Even the soft mozz logs typically come packed in a bit of whey or water.  Are these logs fresh mozz or fior Di latte?  Thanks for any help.

They also use no herbs in the sauce, but it is mentioned in the video that the old Italian immigrants used dry majorum on top of the pie instead of basil, because basil was probably not available at the time or too expensive.  If this is true this is likely how topping pies with dry oregano also got it's start.  I also just started sprinkling oregano on cheese pies.  I know there are several members here like chicken arm who have been doing this awhile.  I have to say that I like it and it adds another dimension to the flavor of the pie.

Chau

[gabaghool]

Chau
In checking out Totonno's videos, the mozz they are using looks like a "fresh mozzeralla log" in one and a large ball in the other.  The fresh mozzarella log doesn't come in whey, but cryovacked.  NOT the unsalted curd I was talking about, but NOT the fior d latte exactly either.  You can find this log at Restaurant depot if one is close by.  And its shown in another cheese company.......www.lionimozzarella.com.  You can see how the fresh mooz log is presented.  Its better for melting than the stuff in whey or the mooz u make from curd.  Now, this stuff is DIFFERENT than the salted curd blocks.  See, curd usually comes vacked in 2 twenty lb blocks on a commercial pack. This salted curd that I am referring to comes in five lb blocks and only one company I know does it this way.

The guy I learned NY style from worked at Totonno's on coney island and this salted curd is what he used when he opened his own in connecticut.  I beleive him because when I watched the Tot video, the pizza is constructed EXACTLY the way I was taught.  Slices of fresh mozz down on the skin first, then a circle of sauce around the perimiter of the skin to make the border of the rim and then 4 to 5 lines of sauce through the middle of the pie, grated romano, oil and then oregano.  Exactly the same.  But, the cheese at Totonnos' looks like a FRESH MOZZARELLA BLOCK (which many companies now make, BECAUSE it melts better in a pizza operation, its sometimes called "old fashioned mozzarella")but, not the salted curd.

But, AT LEAST in ONE video, that cheese is most certainly not the type that comes packed in whey or water or perservative.

I tell you, I prefer THIS ny style of constructing pizza BETTER than the NH style.  With the cheese down first, the pie is, imho, a much more attractive pie...with a red and white appearence...not that almost all white look that comes with sauce first and then shredded dry mooz.  Plust the flavor of the sauce is much more pronouncesd and I like that since Im a sauce guy, not much of a mooz guy.

[pizzablogger]

I think that Scott r has pretty much summed it up very well in his several posts here.

In addition, what many people don't realize (that are not from the NH area) is that there are more pizzerias serving Apizza ("ah-beets") in NH than just the best known joints of Sally's, Modern, Bar and Pepe's. Another difference utilized by some NH style pizzerias, such as Grand Apizza, is the use of crushed breadcrumbs on the pizza peel when launching the pizza instead of flour, which lends a different textural nuance to the pies.

Scott123....I can't think of a better use for fior-di-latte than placing it on a pizza. If anything, bufala is the poorer choice IMHO unless it is fresh and properly drained before firing.

As far as Pepe's is concerned, I have no idea what the pizzas there were like 25 years ago and I still have not eaten at the original location (!), but I have had pizza at their newer Mohegan Sun location on four seperate occasions. If those 4 pizzas are any indication of the pizzas currently being served at Pepe's in New Haven, the pizzas are not noticeably better than what you can purchase at Domino's. I ate one piece from each of the four pizzas and, crestfallen, threw the rest of the pizzas in the trash. Horse dung I tell you. --K

[gabaghool]

Yep, blogger....we use breadcrumbs also...infact, all the places that made NH style pizza used breadcrumbs.   The one NY style place I worked in used just the flour that stuck to the dough.  A bit more difficult to launch, BUT, I also think that too much flour kinda "deadens" the crust, I can't explain it, but a bunch of flour changes the texture.....maybe someone with more brains can explain it.

I double your feelings on Pepe's.  IMO, "the fat guy"  a man who had a blog of NY pizza and burgers first noticed that something was amiss with Pepes about 12 years ago, he thought a cheapening of ingredients was the culprit.  I have to concur with that.

[pizzablogger]

A bit more difficult to launch, BUT, I also think that too much flour kinda "deadens" the crust, I can't explain it, but a bunch of flour changes the texture.....maybe someone with more brains can explain it.

It can also add an unpleasant burnt note to the pizza when too much flour is used on the peel.

Not much flour is really needed on a peel to launch a pizza of a higher hydration. It just takes practice. The slotted, metal GI peels also really help eliminate extra flour when launching a pizza.

[gabaghool]

True...same goes with bread crumbs...you need a simple few.  And, in reality, once you can launch, you can launch.  And part of that is to be able to decorate fast enough.

[scott r]

It also seems like many NP places use fior di latte over buffala based on difficulty sourcing buffala.  I've seen some places offer both, but the buffala is usually a few dollars more.

Nick I have also heard that bufala is traditionally eaten fresh rather than melted on pizza as well, but don't know how true it is.

Chau

Its not hard to source good fresh buffala for a restaurant, you just need to be near an airport.   Places don't like using it because the cost is massively higher and its hard to charge enough for a pizza to make it worth it.  Also, its harder to get to the right moisture content.  

When I was in the naples/amalfi coast area buffala seemed to be everywhere BUT on the pizzas..   I was very surprised when i ordered it...the problem there was the same..they didn't get enough moisture out of it before using it on pizza.

[scott r]

I double your feelings on Pepe's.  IMO, "the fat guy"  a man who had a blog of NY pizza and burgers first noticed that something was amiss with Pepes about 12 years ago, he thought a cheapening of ingredients was the culprit.  I have to concur with that.

I haven't noticed a big change in pepe's.  Many of my pizzaholic friends that grew up in new haven have said that it (and sallys) have always been pretty much the same.  Pepe's has consistency issues for sure.    Sometimes the oven is much hotter than other times, and they use a much wider fermentation range than they should.  They have changed cheese brands, but I have used both and prefer the newer brand myself.   Both are good.  Its possible they have changed some toppings.

[scott r]

Chau
In checking out Totonno's videos, the mozz they are using looks like a "fresh mozzeralla log" in one and a large ball in the other.  The fresh mozzarella log doesn't come in whey, but cryovacked.  NOT the unsalted curd I was talking about, but NOT the fior d latte exactly either.  You can find this log at Restaurant depot if one is close by.  And its shown in another cheese company.......www.lionimozzarella.com.

There are a number of brands of log type fresh mozzarella that don't come in water.  I see the poly-o used the most in NYC.   The lioni is good stuff, but I still prefer a great fresh mozzarella in water...something about the creaminess and how it handles neapolitan bakes better, I think.    The fresh mozzarella log type (think patsys in harlem upgrade pies) always has just a little hint of plastic in it to me.    Again, I was surprised that the supremo italiano had less of that than im used to...it almost fooled me into thinking it was really fresh "packed in water" mozzarella.

[scott r]

As far as Pepe's is concerned, I have no idea what the pizzas there were like 25 years ago and I still have not eaten at the original location (!), but I have had pizza at their newer Mohegan Sun location on four seperate occasions. If those 4 pizzas are any indication of the pizzas currently being served at Pepe's in New Haven, the pizzas are not noticeably better than what you can purchase at Domino's. I ate one piece from each of the four pizzas and, crestfallen, threw the rest of the pizzas in the trash. Horse dung I tell you. --K

Next time you hit pepes, go to the original.   Most new yorkers need to ask for a pie with a lighter bake before they like pepe's.  I don't mean that as a put down either.  They can definitely go too long and hand you cardboard, but when its right the top of the pie can be intoxicating, and the crust pretty right on.    You new yorkers are spoiled though.... the bar is so high, and there are so many good places.    I have had good luck at the pepe's spinoff locations so far, but im not surprised.   Again, if the original location has trouble keeping the oven at even temp, and these places are exact duplicate ovens..... add on that even at the original location they use dough too early and late....  

[Jet_deck]

... And its shown in another cheese company.......www.lionimozzarella.com. ..... 

This cheese : http://www.lionimozzarella.com/mozzarella_in_water.html

"Ovoline: "Egg Size" Fresh Mozzarella in Water" is what I found in Atlanta.  I don't believe I have reported that part yet....

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12718.0.html

[scott123]

Scott123, can you tell me why fresh mozz shouldn't be used on pizza?  Is this a tradition thing, taste, or what?
It also seems like many NP places use fior di latte over buffala based on difficulty sourcing buffala.  I've seen some places offer both, but the buffala is usually a few dollars more.

My feelings on mozzarella boil down to two relatively personal preferences (with a heavy NY bias):

1. Cheese has to melt thoroughly, without curdling.

2. Cheese has to, when melted, be flavorful and rich.

Fior di latte has less fat than bufala, which, in turn, gives it a higher melting point- most of the time.  In a high heat, fast bake, Neapolitan setting, where there's always, imo, a threat of undermelted cheese, bufala is the lesser risk.

Undermelted brick mozz, can be very unpleasant, but undermelted fresh is just misery. No richness, no flavor, no buttery succulence, just rubber.  Even when it is melted, it doesn't have the butteriness of it's low moisture cousin.  It's just one big old slice of boring.  Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a flavorholic- the in your face sharpness of provolone is not my bag either.  I just have to have that butterfat.  Fior di latte + evoo does NOT equal whole milk brick.

My childhood pizzeria, as I've mentioned elsewhere, has defiled their crust over the years, but their cheese and sauce is the same.  When you walk in the door, you're greeted by this overwhelming smell of butter.  It's such a beautiful thing.  Nick talks about smelling a good mozzarella and getting a strong buttered popcorn note. That's exactly what I want from mozzarella. I want my pizza to smell and taste like that, my house to smell like it, heck, if I could bottle it, I'd wear it as a cologne.

So, even in a best case scenario where you can actually get the fior di latte to melt, it still has very little flavor, character or richness- very little soul.  And that's IF you can actually get it to melt.  Fior di latte goes from rubber to curdled in the blink of an eye.  If brick breaks, it tends to be a bit cosmetically challenged, but it's still pretty palatable. If fior di latte breaks, you've got a watery soupy mess that you wouldn't serve to your worst enemy- and fior di latte breaks a lot.  Maybe not in Neapolitan settings, but as you increase the baking clock, so goes the propensity for curdling.

NH places that use brick mozz with higher temps and longer bake times- respect.  Coal places that offer a brick option- respect.  Coal places that only offer fior di latte- not so much respect.

[Matthew]

Its not hard to source good fresh buffala for a restaurant, you just need to be near an airport.   Places don't like using it because the cost is massively higher and its hard to charge enough for a pizza to make it worth it.  Also, its harder to get to the right moisture content.  

When I was in the naples/amalfi coast area buffala seemed to be everywhere BUT on the pizzas..   I was very surprised when i ordered it...the problem there was the same..they didn't get enough moisture out of it before using it on pizza.

Great point Scott.  At our place, we are using nothing but Bufala.  When adequately drained, it's nothing short of spectacular on pizza.  We have a local producer of bufala & although it's okay, it still falls short from the product that we bring in from Caserta. 

Matt

[Jackie Tran]

Thank you guys for the additional clarification on what sets NH coal style apart from the other styles.  

Scott123, thanks for your personal insight to the different cheeses and how they react on pizza.  I'm still not sure I understand the difference between fior di latte and cow's milk soft mozz.  From what I understand fior di latte is fresh mozz made from cow's milk.  It is the counterpart to bufala mozz.   And soft mozz and mozz logs are also made from cow's milk.  So does anyone know the difference between "fior di latte" vs regular soft mozz?  or is there no difference?  

Also when I go to look at and buy soft mozz from the store, it never says "fior di latte" on the label.  Why is that?  It seems that companies that make mozz, make a product they call fior di latte as well as their soft mozz.  I can understand making cheese in different sizes and shapes, but I know it's all the same.  Is fior di latte somehow different?  

Scott, just so I understand you correctly, for your taste/preference, you will accept only bufala on NP (and I am keeping in mine that you are not a fan of NP pizza), and brick mozz for NY style, but never any soft mozz on pizza correct?  

Perhaps the reason I am able to get my hand stretched polly o to work on pizza, is that I do stress using lower water temps to preserve some of the butter fat and I make sure to not overstretch the cheese to help prevent toughness.  I also rarely use it alone, but regularly mix it 50/50 with a brick mozz, with grated parm or romano, and a drizzle of OO.   Not sure about breaking any cheese rules, but it seems to work and I'm happy.  Overall, it melts well and tastes good.  

But I do agree that soft mozz tends to have very little flavor if any.  It just seems bland any way you cut it, fresh or melted.  And I too can not stand rubbery cheese which seems to be a common trait of many soft mozzs once cooled.

Chau

[scott123]

Scott123, thanks for your personal insight to the different cheeses and how they react on pizza.  I'm still not sure I understand the difference between fior di latte and cow's milk soft mozz.  From what I understand fior di latte is fresh mozz made from cow's milk.  It is the counterpart to bufala mozz.   And soft mozz and mozz logs are also made from cow's milk.  So does anyone know the difference between "fior di latte" vs regular soft mozz?  or is there no difference?  

Also when I go to look at and buy soft mozz from the store, it never says "fior di latte" on the label.  Why is that?  It seems that companies that make mozz, make a product they call fior di latte as well as their soft mozz.  I can understand making cheese in different sizes and shapes, but I know it's all the same.  Is fior di latte somehow different?

From what I understand fior di latte, 'soft' mozz and 'fresh' mozz are all the same.  It can be packed in water or shrink wrapped, but if it's white and wet, it's fior di latte/fresh mozz. Now, from what Nick has stated, it looks like there might be wet/dry hybrids of some sort. While I think that's very possible, I haven't come across any personally.

I've done a lot of research on mozzarella, and, no matter where I look, I can't find anything about how low moisture mozz is made.  If I could ever find that out and how that process differs from fior di latte, that would make my year.

Scott, just so I understand you correctly, for your taste/preference, you will accept only bufala on NP (and I am keeping in mine that you are not a fan of NP pizza), and brick mozz for NY style, but never any soft mozz on pizza correct?

Well, technically I never said I'm not a fan of NP, just that I'm a bigger fan of NY, but yes, that pretty much sums up my feelings.

As I've said before, your mozzarella seems to be the exception to my rule.  Perhaps because you're blending it or it could be the assistance in melting that the OO provides.  When push comes to shove, though, I'm a low moisture brick guy to the core.

Just a dab under each ear 

[norma427]

There is an article on slice.serious eats.com today, about the four greatest pizzerias in New Haven with a video posted by J. Kenji Lopez, if anyone is interested.
http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/10/video-new-haven-pizza-pepes-modern-apizza-zuppardis-sallys.html#continued

These aren’t my opinions, because I never tried a pizza from any New Haven pizza businesses.

Norma