Help - My dough "droops" when shaping

[dmaxdmax]

[I don't know if "droops" is the best word]

I've started making my own pizza and have run into a problem.  I'm making the Peter Reinhart NY recipe (I took his 4 hour class at Johnson & Wales which was a blast!) and quite like the flavor and crumb.  The middle is pretty thin and the edge is big with some nice-sized holes.  My problem is that when I try to shape it off the counter it *immediately* loses any round shape and extends into a big oval/rectangle.  Luckily it doesn't tear but I've served quite a few rectangles.  On occasion I've had a snap-back problem but the shape issue is pretty consistent.

Could I be under-kneading?  I'm kind of paranoid about overworking the dough but at the same time I've never really achieved the oft-described "smooth and silky" texture.

Thank you very much.  

[dellavecchia]

What is your hydration level? If it is high, then you may have a very slack dough to work with - which is not necessarily a bad thing. You may want to actually knead/mix the dough a little more to develop gluten. This may make it easier to work with. Or you could just lower the hydration. Post your recipe/workflow and we can better answer your question.

John

[c0mpl3x]

reinhart uses a large amount of oil iirc in the dough

what is your process?  room temp rise then shape and bake or cold ferment or something in the middle, did you change the recipe etc

help us help you!

[Pete-zza]

dmaxdmax,

I have seen at least three Reinhart dough recipes for what one might call a NY style. Is it one of the Reinhart NY style recipes I identified at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.msg110290.html#msg110290 ?

Peter

[dmaxdmax]

dmaxdmax,

I have seen at least three Reinhart dough recipes for what one might call a NY style. Is it one of the Reinhart NY style recipes I identified at Reply 2 ?

Peter

Yes I believe it's the first one you mention: NY Style from "American Pie".

I start by combining:
22.5 oz KA Sir Lancelot flour
0.75 oz sugar (or honey but I've used sugar)
0.15 oz instant yeast
1.5 oz olive oil
14 oz room temp water

I mix in a KitchenAid bowl with a dough-whisk until just combined, then add 0.5 oz table salt.  Attach C-hook and mix on the lowest speed for 4 minutes.  I generally need to pause to scrape down a certain amount of dough that has climbed up the hook.  I may pause and scrape twice - I'm not sure.  I let it rest for 5 minutes before giving it a final 2 minutes on the next-to-lowest speed.  I generally add a few teaspoons of water along the way if everything seems stuck to the hook.  My uneducated guess is that if I used honey rather than sugar the extra moisture might not be necessary.

I form a log and divide into 3 parts with a bench knife. (work surface and knife lightly oiled)  I form each into something that approximates a ball and put in an oiled quart-sized freezer bag.  The bags sit at room temp for 15 minutes before hitting the fridge.  I don't worry too much about a real ball since after 2 days it doesn't have much shape left.  

After 36-48 hours, depending on how soon I started, I let the bags sit on the counter for 2 hours before removing and shaping.  At this point I've tried re-balling but generally don't.  I push into a rough circle (8"?  I've never measured) and my trouble begins.  If I try to lift it to shape over the back of my hands/knuckles it stretches too fast for me to handle.  I don't do very well at leaving it on the mat and stretching it into a circle either.  I can't seem to get it to move symmetrically.

I build the pizza on parchment and slide it onto a pre-heated stone in a 500deg gas oven.  Bake for approx 6 minutes and let cool on the counter.  I build 3 like this and can reheat each in about 2 minutes so all are done pretty much together.  I reheat without parchment.

The result has been a big hit and we figure the shape doesn't have much impact on the taste.  Still, I'd like to get my shape under control and make this pizza as close to perfection as my skill and equipment will allow.  Then I'll move onto other recipes and variations.  I feel like I'm stumbling in the dark but it's a fun stumble.

Thank you very much for any thoughts you might have!
Dave

*******
<edit>
I don't want to give the impression that I've done this very much.  3 times with this recipe/method preceded by 3 disasters of other types.

[Pete-zza]

dmaxdmax,

Since I came up with a better baker's percent version of the Reinhart recipe that you used, at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69678.html#msg69678, I decided to use that version to analyze what you did. I also went back to American Pie to see what Peter Reinhart gives as fermentation instructions. I noted there that he says that the dough can be used the same day or the "next day". Without a starting time, "next day" is a vague recitation of a time period, but I do not believe that Peter Reinhart means 36-48 hours. The amount of yeast, at almost 0.71% (IDY), and the hydration, at almost 65%, are too high for a dough that is to be cold fermented for 36-48 hours, especially when coupled with the 15 minutes initial warm-up time (before refrigerating the dough) and the 2-hour temper time (just before using the dough to make pizzas). I suspect what happened in your case is the dough fermented too much even though it was not overfermented. That would explain the excessive extensibility of the dough and the dough handling problems you experienced. The use of almost 6.5% oil will also have contributed to that extensibility since oil has a "wetting" effect on the dough that makes the dough seem even more hydrated than 65%.

As I see it, at this point you have several possible options. You can repeat the recipe but use the dough within about 12-18 hours of cold fermentation (my best estimate given the yeast, hydration and oil quantities and the duration of the two dough rest periods) or you can modify the recipe to allow you to use the dough within 36-48 hours. When I want to use a dough such as the Reinhart dough within 2-3 days, I typically use around 0.375-0.40% IDY this time of year (because of lower temperatures) and I do not use an initial rest period and I use a temper period of around 1 1/2 hours. I can think of many other possible changes but as between the two choices mentioned above, I think I would lower the yeast quantity if you want the dough to go out a few days. If you continue to have extensibility problems with the lower yeast amount, then I would consider other options, including lowering the hydration and/or the amount of oil. The usual advice when using both water and oil in the dough is to have the combined percents of water and oil about equal the rated absorption value of the flour used. For the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour, that means that the combined percents of water and oil should equal about 63%. That isn't the case with the Reinhart recipe but Peter Reinhart is very fond of using very high hydrations for his dough. I believe that that came out of his experience as a bread maker before he tackled pizza dough.

Good luck and let us know how you make out if you decide to implement the recommendations set forth above.

Peter

[dmaxdmax]

Thank you!  I'm going to tackle your suggestions for a 2-3 day rise since our timetables are fluid, at best.  A 6 hour window isn't enough for my family. 8-)   I will absolutely report my results.

What modification would I make if I used the easier to find King Arthur Bread flour?  I didn't know about "rated absorption value" - is bread flour different than 63%?

[Pete-zza]

What modification would I make if I used the easier to find King Arthur Bread flour?  I didn't know about "rated absorption value" - is bread flour different than 63%?

dmaxdmax,

Rated absorption value is a laboratory measurement that can vary (usually a few percent lower) from the amount of water that a flour can actually absorb under normal baking conditions. For KABF, the rated absorption value is 62%. Your recipe is already close to 65%, so lowering it by a percent or two would adjust for the use of the KABF without materially affecting the rest of the recipe. Ultimately, you may find it necessary to make other hydration changes, as I mentioned in my last post.

Peter

[chickenparm]

Just for a tip,
When I made very high hydration dough,I mean 70%-100%,I never bothered to handle the dough.I tried and it was a disaster.I then learned to simply plop it out from the bowl onto the counter and start shaping on my round pan.

Sometimes lifting it up a little bit to help spread it or stretch it larger,but mainly stayed on the pan.

There was just no real way to handle it.I had to precook the crust on the pan for about 2 minutes,then remove the pan and make sure crust didn't stick.Then,Added sauce,cheese,etc,then used the pan as a peel and slid the pie back onto the stone.
 

[dmaxdmax]

Pete-zza,

I was anxious to try your suggestions so when mixing dough today for Friday baking I dropped IDY by a third and water by 1 oz (13 rather than 14).  The dough was super easy to handle and generated a windowpane but when I got it out of the mixer it was too stiff to come together in a ball.  Only later did it occur to me that in the past I've added a few teaspoons of water during mixing but didn't this time.  My three dough balls all look like the photo (except less blurry) - will this be worth anything?  Can something this stiff be shaped and expected to rise?

Thanks.

[Pete-zza]

dmaxdmax,

Since you followed Peter Reinhart's dough preparation methods, I would continue with the exercise and make the pizzas. My approach on windowpaning is at odds with the windowpaning method that Reinhart recommends. I do not do any windowpaning of the dough as it is being prepared. I slightly underknead the dough and rely on biochemical gluten development to complete the gluten development. I suspect that Reinhart's approach reflects his background in bread making where the dough is kneaded to full gluten development and where windowpaning is a common test. In your case, you may find that the full knead that you performed extends the window of usability of the dough because of the stiffening of the dough. So, you may want to watch the dough for fermentation bubbles at the bottom and sides of the storage containers (hopefully they are glass or plastic to be able to observe the bubbling).

I might add that Peter Reinhart is not alone among the experts in recommending using the windowpaning test. Alton Brown and Jeffrey Steingarten also use that test. By contrast, the general method I used is as described at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3560.msg30582/topicseen.html#msg30582.

Peter

[dmaxdmax]

Hmmmm...this is as different from my prior attempts as sillyputty is from a sno-cone.  As I'll be feeding others on Friday I think I'll freeze these for later (private) consumption and start fresh with the original method but a shorter time both on the counter and in the fridge.  I'll report back.
Thanks again
Dave 

[dmaxdmax]

Our friends had to cancel so I went ahead and baked these crusts and they were pretty good but a little doughy and didn't have a lot of rise or holes in the edge.  My next attempt will be to return to the original recipe but make the dough ~18 hours ahead.  I'll report back.