Author Topic: Slice tackles NY Style  (Read 4140 times)

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Offline yaddayaddayadda

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Slice tackles NY Style
« on: November 05, 2010, 11:55:25 AM »
Did anyone else read this article?  Do the great minds here agree with the theories on oxidation of the dough?  Don't know if I can give up my kitchenaid.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 01:33:14 PM »
That post proved I can make an arse of myself....and not to drink before making comments  :-[
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2010, 04:35:47 PM »
I read the Slice piece and the comments and offer up the following observations.

First, Peter Reinhart is well aware of the concept of oxidation. In fact, the very first time that I can recall reading about the harmful effects of oxidation on carotenoids was from something that he wrote. Even after doing substantial searching for more information on the subject, I found very little. Later, after I bought Professor Calvel's book The Taste of Bread, I found a lot more information about oxidation of bread dough. In France, that oxidation took place at very high mixer speeds with very intensive mixing. Also, if the salt, which is an antioxidant, was added to the dough toward the end of the kneading process, that resulted in even further oxidation of the dough. In this context, I looked at Peter Reinhart's instructions for making his NY style dough in a stand mixer. Those instructions are at pages 114-115 of his book American Pie. I see nothing from those instructions from the standpoint of mixer speed or mixing/kneading durations that leads me to believe that oxidation of the dough takes place with those mixer speeds and durations. In my opinion, Peter Reinhart would not have given instructions that he knowingly believed would result in oxidation of the dough and harmed the carotenoids.

Second, I agree with all of the commenters on the autolyse and what it constitutes. Professor Calvel was the "father" of the autolyse method and gave it its name. The autolyse should involve only flour and water (and possibly a natural levain). If people want to add salt, yeast, oil and other ingredients along with the flour and water, and let the mixture rest, they should feel free to do so. However, in my opinion, they should not call such a rest period an autolyse. Call it a quasi-autolyse or ersatz autolyse or some other non-ambiguous term and then explain what it is so that it is not confused with the classic Calvel autolyse. The post that I often cite on the subject of autolyse for those who are interested is Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856. I might also add that in Peter Reinhart's instructions referenced above, in which all of the ingredients for the pizza dough are added to the bowl at the same time, he never refers to the ensuing rest periods as autolyse rest periods, even though the rest periods he calls for do improve the hydration of the flour.

Third, one of the things that is missing in the Slice piece is a discussion of finished dough temperature. It is very easy to end up with a very warm dough using a food processor. The finished dough temperature can be many degrees higher than a comparable dough made in a stand mixer, even when using the pulse feature and, typically, the full speed of the food processor to finally bring things together. I once calculated the friction factor of my 14-cup Cuisinart food processor and it was much higher than for my standard KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. I later learned that I could keep the finished dough temperature of doughs made in my food processor in the desired 75-80 degrees F range by using cold water, mainly the pulse feature, and a short period of operating the food processor at full speed. The danger in not trying to keep the dough cool is that the dough will ferment much faster and rise much faster and continue to rise even after being placed in the refrigerator. This activity is further aggravated if the amount of yeast is also high. As noted below, I established that the dough formulation referenced in the Slice piece calls for 0.944% IDY. That is a high value.

Fourth, I calculated the thickness factor for the recipe discussed in the Slice piece and, assuming the dough is used to make 12" pizzas, the thickness factor value comes to 0.119; for 14" pizzas, it is 0.08743. Of the two values, I think that most New Yorkers who cherish the NY "street" style or "slice" style and know about thickness factors, which is quite a few members of this forum, will tell you that 0.119 is too high a thickness factor for that style. However, the 0.08743 thickness factor is much closer to what you are likely to get for that style. So, in my opinion, 14" is the better size to use for authenticity. I personally think the tougher test to come up with an authentic NY style is to make an 18" pizza, particularly one with slices that do not droop.

Finally, as I have commented before, I do not view Peter Reinhart's NY style dough formulation as being the best representation or manifestation of the NY style. I took a stab at converting his recipe to baker's percent format at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69678.html#msg69678. The dough formulation referenced in the Slice piece is quite similar. I did some conversions and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (66.6666%):
IDY (0.94444%):
Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt (1.55555%):
Olive Oil (6.34920%):
Sugar (3.93746%):
Total (179.45325%):
637.88 g  |  22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs
425.25 g  |  15 oz | 0.94 lbs
6.02 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
9.92 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.92 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
40.5 g | 1.43 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9 tsp | 3 tbsp
25.12 g | 0.89 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.3 tsp | 2.1 tbsp
1144.69 g | 40.38 oz | 2.52 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for three dough balls for three 12"-14" pizzas; the calculated thickness factor for a 12" pizza is 0.119 and 0.0874 for a 14" pizza; no bowl residue compensation

I am no expert in the NY style at the street level, and I see little merit in getting into an arm wrestling contest over Peter Reinhart's NY style dough formulation, but I think that the sugar and oil levels in the above formulation are not typical of the NY style dough formulations I have studied. To me, they are more like an American style but for a thinner crust. For those who wish to pursue this matter further, I invite them to study the NY style dough formulations presented in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html. They should also look at the Lehmann NY style dough formulation.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 06:02:17 PM by Pete-zza »

scott123

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2010, 05:32:07 PM »
Reinhart, seriously... Reinhart? Does Slice exist in a vacuum?  It seems like a lot of the commenters frequent this site- why are the article writers so out of the loop? I've made it pretty clear that I'm not a big Lehmann fan, but if someone wanted to write a Lehmann-centric article, I could live with it.  But Reinhart- on Slice? No.

I enjoy J. Kenji Lopez-Alt's writing style, food science-y bent and what seems like an earnest desire to understand the subject matter, but every time I read his/her articles, the pizza ignorance is like fingernails on a chalkboard for me.


Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2010, 05:40:10 PM »
Peter,

At almost 67% hydro isn't that a bit much for a NY-style pie?
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2010, 05:49:46 PM »
Peter,

At almost 67% hydro isn't that a bit much for a NY-style pie?

Mike,

Peter Reinhart is very fond of high hydration doughs in general. That will work for artisan bakers or pizza makers who can handle high hydration doughs but it would be considered too high for most professional pizza operators who specialize in the NY style, especially those who hire largely unskilled labor to make the pizzas. However, that said, Evelyne Slomon used to quote hydration levels at 65% for all-purpose flours that were used by the old NYC pizza masters, such as those who worked at John's, Totonno's, Lombardi's, etc. In a home environment with experience, 67% is doable, as Chau has demonstrated on many occasions, with all kinds of flours. But you have to know what you are doing.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2010, 05:53:15 PM »

But you have to know what you are doing.

Peter

Sometimes I feel like I don't.  8)
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2010, 06:00:08 PM »
I think I'll give this recipe a shot and see how the outcome is.

The pics certainly look encouraging.
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2010, 06:19:50 PM »
Mike,

We have had several members attempt the Peter Reinhart NY style dough formulation with good results. One example is the Reinhart NY style pizzas that JohnConk made and reported on in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.0.html. Several years ago, I also tried the Reinhart recipe and posted my results at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=524.msg17203#msg17203.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2010, 06:45:11 PM »
Mike,

We have had several members attempt the Peter Reinhart NY style dough formulation with good results. One example is the Reinhart NY style pizzas that  JohnConk made and reported on in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.0.html. Several years ago, I also tried the Reinhart recipe and posted my results at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17203.html#msg17203.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links!

I'm sure I can handle a 66% dough. I think somewhere in the past I have used 65% hydration rates and it worked fine. And with the flour from Central Milling, which I believe handles higher hydrations exceptionally well, it should not be a problem at all.

I'll post the results here, probably beginning of next week.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2010, 07:05:43 PM »
Peter, a couple more questions.

When I took a closer look at Reinhart's formula, it does seem that the values of sugar and oil are a bit high as well. You mentioned that the NY doughs you have studied had different values. I think 3% for the oil and perhaps 2.5% for the sugar should be sufficient, no?

Those values would be in line with what I've mostly been using in the past.
Mike

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 07:46:14 PM »
Peter, a couple more questions.

When I took a closer look at Reinhart's formula, it does seem that the values of sugar and oil are a bit high as well. You mentioned that the NY doughs you have studied had different values. I think 3% for the oil and perhaps 2.5% for the sugar should be sufficient, no?

Those values would be in line with what I've mostly been using in the past.

Mike,

You don't often see oil at above 3% for the NY style. Sugar tends to run from 0-2%. The problem with higher levels of sugar is that the bottom crust can burn when baked in a standard deck oven, particularly if the pizzas are baked before the sugar in the dough has been depleted. You might be able to use more sugar in a home oven setting but I have settled on 0-2%. There are a few members, notably, JerryMac, Canadave and addicted, who have posted dough recipes calling for more than 2% sugar, either sucrose (ordinary table sugar) or honey or barley malt syrup, but they tend to be in the minority. Before commercial deck ovens were invented, most NY style doughs did not contain any sugar or oil.

Peter

buceriasdon

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 08:23:03 PM »
Peter, I whole heartily agree that changing the usage of a word in language either through misunderstanding or just plain laziness, only leads to confusion . An example, there are two types of musical instruments both named dulcimers but are completely different in every respect, but both have the same name but shouldn't. And after such a length of time both are now accepted. Sadly. 
Don

Peter wrote:
Second, I agree with all of the commenters on the autolyse and what it constitutes. Professor Calvel was the "father" of the autolyse method and gave it its name. The autolyse should involve only flour and water (and possibly a natural levain). If people want to add salt, yeast, oil and other ingredients along with the flour and water, and let the mixture rest, they should feel free to do so. However, in my opinion, they should not call such a rest period an autolyse. Call it a quasi-autolyse or ersatz autolyse or some other non-ambiguous term and then explain what it is so that it is not confused with the classic Calvel autolyse. The post that I often cite on the subject of autolyse for those who are interested is Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856. I might also add that in Peter Reinhart's instructions referenced above, in which all of the ingredients for the pizza dough are added to the bowl at the same time, he never refers to the ensuing rest periods as autolyse rest periods, even though the rest periods he calls for do improve the hydration of the flour.


Offline chickenparm

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 09:17:29 PM »
So what is the best way to autolyse,add the water and flour mix first,then after rest,add the remaining ingredients last?Or does it truly make no actual difference?Is it semantics being debated over a mis-used word?These are my questions from reading the link and the replies.
 :)


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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 10:11:57 PM »
So what is the best way to autolyse,add the water and flour mix first,then after rest,add the remaining ingredients last?Or does it truly make no actual difference?Is it semantics being debated over a mis-used word?These are my questions from reading the link and the replies.
 :)

Bill,

In addition to Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856 (referenced earlier in this thread), the following from Professor Calvel's book The Taste of Bread, at page 31, may help you:

Autolysis is the slow-speed premixing of the flour and water in a recipe (excluding all the other ingredients), followed by a rest period. The other ingredients are added when mixing is recommenced [...]. During experiments in 1974, Professor Calvel discovered that the rest period improves the links between starch, gluten, and water, and notably improves the extensibility of the dough. As a result, when mixing is restarted, the dough forms a mass and reaches a smooth state more quickly. Autolysis reduces the total mixing time (and therefore the dough's oxidation) by approximately 15%, facilitates the molding of unbaked loaves, and produces bread with more volume, better cell structure, and a more supple crumb. Although the use of autolysis is advantageous in the production of most types of bread, including regular French bread, white pan sandwich bread and sweet bread doughs, it is especially valuable in the production of natural levain leavened breads.

Elsewhere in his book, Prof. Calvel talked about the finished crumb being "creamy colored" and with an "agreeable taste" and with a "pleasant mouthfeel". However, the most detailed description of autolyse in the book is the material quoted above. To the best of my knowledge, Prof. Calvel never talked about autolysis in the context of pizza dough, only bread dough, croissants and brioche and perhaps a few other yeasted doughs. Maybe it was the scientist in him, but he never gushed about autolyse and its benefits. It was all a matter-of-fact approach.

My advice to people is to do whatever they want with their doughs. I only ask that they respect the nomenclature. I feel the same way about preferments and calling them what they are (e.g., poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, etc.) and not bastardizing the names and calling everything a "biga". I'd like people who come to this forum to say, "Hey, these guys are smart and know what they are talking about". Maybe then they will stay, become active participants, and give something back to the forum.

Peter



Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2010, 10:24:41 PM »
Mike,

You don't often see oil at above 3% for the NY style. Sugar tends to run from 0-2%. The problem with higher levels of sugar is that the bottom crust can burn when baked in a standard deck oven, particularly if the pizzas are baked before the sugar in the dough has been depleted. You might be able to use more sugar in a home oven setting but I have settled on 0-2%. There are a few members, notably, JerryMac, Canadave and addicted, who have posted dough recipes calling for more than 2% sugar, either sucrose (ordinary table sugar) or honey or barley malt syrup, but they tend to be in the minority. Before commercial deck ovens were invented, most NY style doughs did not contain any sugar or oil.

Peter

Thank you, Sir, for the clarification!
Mike

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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2010, 10:28:25 PM »
My advice to people is to do whatever they want with their doughs. I only ask that they respect the nomenclature. I feel the same way about preferments and calling them what they are (e.g., poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, etc.) and not bastardizing the names and calling everything a "biga". I'd like people who come to this forum to say, "Hey, these guys are smart and know what they are talking about". Maybe then they will stay, become active participants, and give something back to the forum.

Peter


You said it perfectly there...I remember first coming here feeling overwhelmed and as time went by,seeing how much everyone knew,how smart or experienced a lot of the members were,I strived to learn more and hope to give back myself someday.

I had never heard of hydration % percentages,or autolyse,or etc.I did not even know what 00 flour was or KA brands.I just knew I had to learn this stuff,and felt this was the best place to come.Heck Im still confused at times,Im PM you and Chau and others all the time with nit picking questions.  LOL.

I thank you and everyone for their patience and for contribution here.The vast knowledge of you all here needs to be treated with utmost respect and praise.Most outsiders-People have no idea what is going on in this forum,such as whats being shared and learned.
 8)








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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2010, 10:28:44 PM »
Did anyone else read this article?  Do the great minds here agree with the theories on oxidation of the dough?  Don't know if I can give up my kitchenaid.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html

Thanks for the post.  I will definitely be doing this experiment in the near future.  Food processor dough vs Bosch dough.  Who will rise to the top and produce a better pie?

Chau

Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2010, 10:34:42 PM »
Just in case some members here don't know who Prof. Raymond Calvel was, here's a little info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Calvel

And if some members want to read about his work, or how he did things with his breads and doughs this book should shed light on it. It carries a hefty price tag, though.

http://www.amazon.com/Taste-Bread-Raymond-Calvel/dp/0834216469/?tag=pizzamaking-20
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Slice tackles NY Style
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2010, 10:36:12 PM »
Thanks for the post.  I will definitely be doing this experiment in the near future.  Food processor dough vs Bosch dough.  Who will rise to the top and produce a better pie?

Chau

Chau,

I don't think there will be any question about it  ;D

However, have you ever thought of applying Chad's fold-over/turn technique to pizza dough?
Mike

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