Author Topic: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .  (Read 3092 times)

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Offline thezaman

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my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« on: November 16, 2010, 11:31:00 AM »
  my usual batch of dough is 3000 grams of caputo, and 66 percent hydration. it would not come together in my mixer i kept adding flour to get it to a consistency that finally came together. the final finished weight was 12 pounds . two pounds heavier than it should of been. i balled it and let it room rise for 8 hours. when it was time to make pizza . it wouldn't stretch it just tore. when i dumped caputo from the bag for bench flour,i was using the 1kg size bags the flour was lumpy. the culprit was water or dampness that got into the flour and it was unusable. i threw away the rest of my batch of flour, unfortunately it was our fault the product was set on a wet shelf by an employee.
  i had a fire, orders, and unusable dough, i let the oven temperature drop and used my normal pizza dough. it worked o.k, not optimal the dough was to soft and not salted enough . customers were happy with their pizza,,but i wasn't and after i filled my outstanding  orders i shut down.
   


Offline ringkingpin

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 04:19:15 PM »
Bummer, that would be frustrating. 
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Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 12:37:26 PM »
 i had the same bad experience with a new batch of caputo 1k bags. the dough will not open with out tearing. the  product had some flour balls in each bag evidence of moisture.i was assured that that should not effect the dough other than it requiring less water. i ruined another sunday bake because of it.

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 03:35:32 PM »
I order flour a few times in the 2.2 bags and everytime they came they were clumped like you stated. The dough I made with those bags of flour never came out to good. I have never had an issue with the 55 pound bags. The places selling the small bags don't do a good job storing the bags at all.

Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 05:21:10 PM »
 i wish i knew what to look for ,i wasted a good fire . i also had the same issue with some kasl flour that was hit or miss bag to bag. both flours were from the same supplier . with thi kasl i could tell the bad dough by its overly white appearance. 

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 05:22:05 PM »
underproofed and speed proofed
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Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2010, 05:43:29 PM »
 please explain , i have never had as many flour issues as i have over the last two months.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2010, 08:24:36 PM »
please explain , i have never had as many flour issues as i have over the last two months.

speed proofing is used to ready underproofed dough.  it involves warm air (possibly a steam stack) or a above room temp climate for the dough to sit in.  the warmth heats the outside faster than a gentle proof and rise does, so the outside proofs making it seem 'usable' but the inside is still underproofed and prone to bubbling/ripping.    'steam stacking' is stacking alternating trays of hot water, dough, hot water etc for 1 or more hours.
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Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2010, 10:47:46 PM »
 no, that isn't the problem. i always mix the same way and only adjust water and yeast a little . my caputo dough i use two hour bulk proof then room temp for 7 hours. the characteristics just didn't feel right. t could not be opened without tearing.
  with the kasa i have a pic of three batches mixed at the same time the center batch has a different color and texture. i also have pics of pizza from the two batches the plain from the middle and the pizza with items the other two. the crumb is like night and day.

Offline Matthew

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2010, 06:02:21 AM »
no, that isn't the problem. i always mix the same way and only adjust water and yeast a little . my caputo dough i use two hour bulk proof then room temp for 7 hours. the characteristics just didn't feel right. t could not be opened without tearing.
  with the kasa i have a pic of three batches mixed at the same time the center batch has a different color and texture. i also have pics of pizza from the two batches the plain from the middle and the pizza with items the other two. the crumb is like night and day.

Larry,
Any idea of the expiry date on the flour?  The only small bags of Caputo I see around here are expired or nearing expiration.  I can put you in touch with Italo from Orlando foods if you like.

Matt


Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2010, 07:44:20 AM »
 matt, thanks i use the little bags for convenience i sent them back and picked up the 55 pound bags. i just want to figure out what the problem is. the king Arthur is the issue . and they come from the same warehouse . i think it is a storage issue there .

Offline Matthew

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2010, 06:33:36 AM »
Larry,
As a side note.  I opened up the top of the mixer & tried to remove the piece that turns the mixer off when you lift the guard.  I prefer to add my flour gradually & I was using an eraser under the side arm guard to hold it up.  It was okay, but you are very limited as to how high you can keep it propped up before it turns off.  Yes there is an opening in the guard but it's not that big & can get messy.  I figure that by loosening the set screw i could easily remove the stop; I learned the hard way that it does not come off.  Long story short, if you mess with that piece it loosens the nuts on that screw which mess up the alignment of the guard on the bowl.  I finally decided that I was going to cut the screw to remove the stop by cutting the screw with a hack saw blade.  It took a while but it was well worth the effort.  I know have the convenience of opening & closing the guard without the machine stopping, not to mention how much easier it makes the clean up.

Matt

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2010, 08:38:16 AM »
Larry,

Late to this thread, but I'd like to ask you about subject: "Caputo flour won't pass the windowpane test". Is that how you determine kneading is done? How long are you kneading? I've found that my Neapolitan-style doughs will be way over-kneaded by the time they window-pane. But I am at around 62% hydration and I really like the dough to be light and fluffy, not at all chewy. Lately I have been pushing the hydration a little higher and kneading a little less and really liking the results.

Thanks,
Bill



Offline andreguidon

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2010, 12:38:09 PM »
i agree Bill, my dough is not ready for the test as soon as the dough is out of the mixer... the gluten has to relax before im able try something like that...
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Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2010, 01:20:47 PM »
 bill, i always wait till the bulk rise to test the gluten. i had a batch of dough a couple of weeks ago not work for me. i thought the bags got wet in my kitchen. it wouldn't stretch it just tore i threw it away as well as the rest of the flour. i reordered and when i mixed this batch i had the same problem. so i determined that it has to be a storage problem at my suppliers warehouse . i had the same issue with my king arthur who i get from the same company. on my caputo i use a hydration of 66 percent and i mix it in a spiral mixer for 8 minutes after a 20 minute rest so the total mixing time is 9 minutes . that is for 3000 grams of flour.
 notes, the flour came out of the bag in little balls, mixed with flour of the normal consistency. the balls broke into powder when i pressed them. the caputo rep said that is normal and other than needing a little less water it should not effect the product. i purchased small bags from another source they were fine. also the two bad bails of caputo had the same date on them. i am afraid to do any more same day dough since i had to scrap to fires because of bad dough
 

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2010, 01:29:14 PM »
caputo rep said that is normal and other than needing a little less water it should not effect the product.

I don't think that's normal. I never had this problem with the bags that I have gotten. Were those bags the smaller bags or were the clumps in the 55 pound bags?

Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2010, 02:04:35 PM »
the little bags, the caputo rep. had a Italian name for them. i am using the large bag for dough tonight which i will use sunday. no more same day dough for me.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2010, 03:23:23 PM »
bill, i always wait till the bulk rise to test the gluten. i had a batch of dough a couple of weeks ago not work for me. i thought the bags got wet in my kitchen. it wouldn't stretch it just tore i threw it away as well as the rest of the flour. i reordered and when i mixed this batch i had the same problem. so i determined that it has to be a storage problem at my suppliers warehouse . i had the same issue with my king arthur who i get from the same company. on my caputo i use a hydration of 66 percent and i mix it in a spiral mixer for 8 minutes after a 20 minute rest so the total mixing time is 9 minutes . that is for 3000 grams of flour.
 notes, the flour came out of the bag in little balls, mixed with flour of the normal consistency. the balls broke into powder when i pressed them. the caputo rep said that is normal and other than needing a little less water it should not effect the product. i purchased small bags from another source they were fine. also the two bad bails of caputo had the same date on them. i am afraid to do any more same day dough since i had to scrap to fires because of bad dough
 

Thanks, Larry. So, aside from the unfortunate quality problems you experiencing with your flour supplier, I want to make sure I am understanding the whole windowpane thing in your process. Are you using the windowpane test after the bulk rise to determine that the dough is ready for shaping and proofing?

Bill

Offline thezaman

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Re: my caputo flour wouldn't pass the windowpane test .
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2010, 03:33:27 PM »
 yes, i just like to see the development since it is never there after my mix. i like you do not want to mix as long as bread dough. the longer mix does make a tougher dough more suitable to bread than pizza. not sure the long mix is even better for bread. folding seems to develop the gluten just fine.


 

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