Author Topic: Lehman try #4 - pics  (Read 4388 times)

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Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Lehman try #4 - pics
« on: April 20, 2005, 09:55:07 PM »
Ok. It's been a little while. But I tried again after doing some reading and here's what I came up with.

As you may know, I've been using a scaled-down version of the recipe. But the percentages are about the same, and the technique is there.

1 C + 2T  KASL
3/8 C  cold, filtered water
1/3 t  kosher salt
1/4 T  OO
1/2 t  IDY

Technique:
1) water in kitchenaid
2) dissolve salt
3) mix flour and yeast separately
4) dump half flour in kitchenaid
5) mix until blended
6) 20 minute autolyse period
7) mix on low speed, adding remaining flour slowly until combined
8) add olive oil
9) dough hook low-medium speed about 5 minutes, or until smooth
10) ziptop bag, 24 hours in fridge
11) remove from fridge for 1 hour while preheating to 550
12) pizza stone on second to bottom rack
13) cook for 6 minutes

Results.
Getting much better.  The dough was highly workable. No tears at all. VERY window pane-like. I could stretch this thing like no tomorrow.

But I think that's the problem. I think I stretched it too much.... because I could. But it didn't allow any spongey interior. It was very cracker-like, and sortof dry tasting.

Also, I think my oven just isn't doing the trick. I'd prefer a higher temperature, for a shorter baking period.

But, man I gotta tell ya, I was just real real impressed with the workability of this dough. I felt like I could take this one to the pizzeria - if I ever open one. I just think the missing ingredients were the good ovens and perhaps too much of a stretch.

Please let me know your honest opinons.

Thanks as always.

 - PSF

keep rockin those 'zas.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 10:14:13 PM by PizzaSuperFreak »


Offline Nathan

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Re: Lehman try #4
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2005, 10:04:21 PM »
Looks pretty good to me  ;)
"Pizza with pineapples?  That's a cake."

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2005, 06:30:23 AM »
PSF,
The pie looks great. The char looks even better.

If I didn't know better the mixing instructions look 90% like they came from Pizza Raquel. I would suggest to consider the remaining 10% and your pie might turn out even better. From the crust structure the stretching method employed needs to be revised.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 11:01:04 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2005, 07:07:59 AM »
psf...it looks to my eye as the leathery and white dusty looking crust may have been a result of too much bench flour when stretching the dough...use as little as possible when shaping prior to cooking..too much and the outside of the pizza crust will look whitish and dry....give it a try good luck

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2005, 07:33:35 AM »
MTPIZZA,
I understand your point about excess flour. And I know its early in the morning but where do you see a white dusty crust? I see a well tanned and charred crust.

I am a huge advocate of using plenty of bench flour during the stretching stage and making sure that the excess flour is patted off the skin before placing on the peel.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 08:00:35 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2005, 07:34:10 AM »
Not only dry, but all the flour that was not matured with the dough, will taste bitter after being baked. I do know of wonderful dough being ruined on the bench...

Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2005, 09:26:52 AM »
mtpizza may be correct. i did use quite a bit of bench flour. but, i didn't think it's an issue since i've seen most decent pizza joints use a ton. they usually first throw it in a metal pan filled with flour, flip it, and then put bench flour down.

i think patting the flour off after dunking it and also using less bench flour is in order for sure.

it's a good point.

pftaylor - as far as my stretching technique, it's as follows. i push it down all over with my finger tips. then pat it down with my hand a bit. then i stretch with the palms of my hands, stretching my fingers out as i go. this usually does about 80% of the stretching. then i pick it up, and stretch it out on my knuckles. this is where i noticed significant window paning, by the way.

what do you sugges i should change?

take care.

 - psf

ps - note my new avatar. found it on the net. it's not me, of course.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2005, 10:03:55 AM »
PSF,
I have found the mixing instructions from Pizza Raquel to produce a very competent and robust dough. The best I have ever personally witnessed. When combined with the stretching steps it is unbeatable in my humble opinion.

I would closely compare your steps to that of Pizza Raquel and adjust where necessary. 98.67348276593083420837408208% of the success of any recipe is not in the ingredients but rather in the preparation and stretching steps. And I do mean all of them taken in totality not just portions. From the initial mixing of salt and water until the time your pie is taken out of your oven, every step matters. Some more than others but the point is that it is a complete process in which the success of the "next step" depends upon how well executed the "previous step" was.

Sounds simple until you are tasked with executing it. That is why I have spent months gathering tidbits of information here and there and combining it into the definitive recipe complete with preparation and stretching steps.  Which to my knowledge, has not been accomplished before. If it has, I was unable to locate it with exhaustive internet searches.

The fact that bread bakers have their view and successful pizza operators generally don't share (or don't know) are just some of the complicating factors in trying to produce a killer home pie.

That problem has now been solved.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 10:05:51 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2005, 10:24:49 AM »
pftaylor,

i'm always happy to accept your input. and i'm glad you're so confident about your pizza skills. however, i'd like to respectfully voice my opinion as well.

i'm 98.24382384023840328% positive that most pizza parlors, even the great ones, take great pains to go through the least and simplest steps possible to produce their pizzas. knowing what i know about the restaurant industry, and profits, it would not behuve them to take such exhaustive measures.

i would bet that most pizza parlors, for example, even the great ones, do not use a starter. too much upkeep and maintenance.

i would guess that most pizza places are a result of a bit of experimentation during the building and development phases of thier businesses. i've experienced this first hand. their suceess is a combination of equipment, experimentation, environmental factors and a bit luck. plus, their equipment far exceeds anything we can do @ home.

also, concerning your stretching techniques... if i remember correctly from your website, you had mentioned that your window pane is very good during the begninning stages of your dough, and not good at all after your dough is complete and ready for stretching. i would say that this is not the way most pizza places are due to the fact that they need a strong dough for stretching. they can't afford to take time patching holes or throwing away dough due to this. i think a gentle stretch is not the best in terms of dough. i'd also guess that this is due to the lower gluten percent in your flour. which is why the pizza places use a higher percent. they need a strong dough.

well, i hope i didn't upset you, but please understand that there are other methods that work, not just yours. and most likely, most of the pizza places, even the great ones, tend to use the KISS method ....keep it very simple.

thanks!

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2005, 10:58:31 AM »
PSF,
Sorry if I offended you in some way.

Do you also have me confused with someone else?

You mentioned my web site. I do not have a web site.

You mentioned my use of low protein flour. I do not use low protein flour.

You mentioned something about window paning. I have never spoken or written about such a topic.

Assuming you thought I was someone else, apology accepted. If not, I wonder then just which of your comments can possibly relate to me and any of my home efforts. The context of my recipe is for home pizza makers. You seem to have addressed pizzerias for some reason.

Where is the intersection of thought?
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Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2005, 11:04:36 AM »
whoops!

pftaylor, i'm sorry. i had you confused with varasano (jeff). he has a website that talks all about his 'patsy's' recipe. and he goes into some great depth about his technique.

sorry about that.

the reason i speak of pizzerias is, well, that's basically the whole thing here, right? most folks are trying to recreate something they've had at a pizzeria. i'm just giving some of my own insight into the subject.


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2005, 11:25:36 AM »
PSF,
No problem. Passion in pizza making is a good thing.

Here's my thing.

I don't want to produce a pizzeria style pie. You are right, they keep it simple but they also do things on the cheap - both in the process area and in the ingredients area. I have chosen a different path. The home artisan approach. It's not for everybody I grant you.

The Pizza Raquel recipe does indeed recommend a preferment (which nearly all pizzeras would never use) because it adds loads of flavor. If one chooses not to utilize a preferment, no big deal. The flavor won't be the same but the basic recipe will still produce an excellent pie. I also recommend a very stringent mixing and stretching regimen.

The point of all this is simply this; pizza can either be made on the cheap or made as if it were a gourmet food. I have no quibble with the man who wants to make a "good enough" pie. My dad use to tell me all the time, "Son, where ever you see yourself, that would be where I would go."

I see myself in the artisan pizza making camp. It may not be perfect but for me it is.
Ciao
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www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2005, 11:32:17 AM »
pftaylor,

i'm glad you're not seemingly offended. i never meant for that.

i understand your point as far as the artisan thing.

i still belive that even the artisan camp is trying to recreate something they've had at a pizzeria. take the patsy's thread for example. patsy's is a pizzeria.

i'm not trying to create something 'good enough' either. if that were the case, i wouldn't have been working on it all these years. i'm looking to make something spectacular. something that people would pay for. and i'm looking to make it in the easiest way possible. there's a fine line there.

if i were satisified with any old pizza parlor pizza, i'd just order Domi-crap or Papa-Junk's and call it a day. barf!

i think we're saying the same things, but just haven't had a brain meld yet.


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2005, 11:43:05 AM »
PSF,
I think I now understand why there was a disconnect. I originally started out making pizzas in the home setting trying to emulate the great pizza joints of NYC. Frankly, they were the best pies I ever ate. It was a natural target.

So I joined here in December of last year trying to make a Patsy's pizza. I made no bones about it. Patsy's was the goal. At one point in time then, your assessment was correct. I was trying to make a home verison of a Patsy's pizza. I have since moved on to making the best pizza I am capable of making. It's roots can be loosely traced through NY to Naples. I call it Pizza Raquel.

It involves the best of what the elite pizzerias in NYC have to offer combined with ultra high quality ingredients and painstakingly precise preparation and stretching procedures. I can afford to do this because the difference between the most expensive pizza I can make and the cheapest is but a few dollars. The end result is the ultimate expression of second generation American pizza. It also happens to be the best tasting pie I have ever personally eaten. Which means I have achieved the revised goal I set out to accomplish.
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Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2005, 12:04:24 PM »
pftaylor,

ok. i guess your motvies have morphed and are slightly different than perhaps mine are.

that best you've ever eaten huh? wow. that must be some pie. perhaps i'll give it a shot sometime.

i know i'm too hard on myself when it comes to my food. others seem to enjoy it alot, but i'm never satisified. congrats on your efforts. to be truly happy with something is a real feat.

if i do try it out, i'll be sure to let you know.

Offline friz78

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2005, 12:31:18 PM »
PSF,
You make some very good points.  If I had a dollar for everytime someone on this board bragged that they just made "the most incredible pizza of my life," I would be a very wealthy man by now.

The art of pizza making is far too subjective a craft to announce that anyone or any single recipe has cornered the market on how it "should" be done.  I believe several folks on this board have done a great deal in advancing our body of knowledge on successful pizza making and, for that, I am truly grateful.  At the same time, let us not believe for one minute that any one of us or any one recipe has all the answers and is absolutely the only way to make a great pizza.  That's ridiculous, yet some people speak with such authority as to try to make you believe this is the case.  To be fair, at one point a while back I was falling prey to this very tendency.  Having pulled back a bit from the forum recently, I now realize that I was a bit over zealous in my enthusiasm for some of my homemade pizza creations when communicating the results to others. 

The pictures of your latest pizza creation are fantastic.  While it is nice for others to offer their commentary on the shortcomings of your pictures, I would remind those people that I have NEVER seen pictures posted on this forum that were perfect.  NEVER.  Yet, sometimes pictures are posted with such bravado, as to make one think that we are viewing the "perfect" pizza - with all characteristics of that pizza being "perfect".  To that I say, "Your pizza is perfect in your eyes, not necessarily everyone else's."  Modesty can be a wonderful virtue - me included...
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 12:34:18 PM by friz78 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2005, 12:56:05 PM »
PSF,

On a few occasions in the past, I tried using an autolyse with the Lehmann recipe and concluded that I liked the non-autolyse version better. That is just a personal preference, with which others may not agree. I tend to doubt that professional pizza operators use autolyse with the NY style dough, but I have read about it for other styles of pizza, specifically, the Neapolitan style, and have used autolyse for that style on many occasions with good results. But that doesn't necessarily mean that autolyse should be used for all pizza styles. Or that a preferment should also be used for all styles. Otherwise, all recipes would ultimately morph into one or a small number of basic recipes. I personally like the differences, whether it is in the flours used, crust thickness, use of autolyse or not, retardation vs. room-temperature fermentation, preferment or not, etc.

You are correct about the motives of pizza operators. The vast majority of them have no interest in becoming pizza artisans. I would venture to say that, with few exceptions, there is more pizza making skill, knowledge and talent on this forum than anyplace out there in Pizza-land. If there were any lingering doubts about that, I think pftaylor's recent visit to some of the best known pizza establishments in the NYC area put those doubts to rest.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 01:05:33 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2005, 01:40:13 PM »
thanks for your comments friz78 and pete-zza.

friz78. i couldn't agree more. i think that people in this forum would be well advised to not come out with statments such as those. it's good that they may have perfected what they were after. but they need to realize that their methods are not necessarily the best method for everyone. it's boastful to think otherwise.

pete-zza. the autolyse thing seemed to have changed alot for me. for now, i think i'm gonna stick to it. i do agree that most pizza perveyors don't employ this. it doesn't make much sense. i'm really sure there are few if any who go through great lenghts to create their product. even the great ones are looking for efficiency.

Offline varasano

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2005, 03:56:54 PM »
Even though the steps I outline seem complicated at first, they are not once you get the hang of it. Consider the autolyse for example. How much trouble is it to mix for a minute then walk away and do other prep and take care of customers before turning the machine on. They don't even have to think about the post mix rest. They make so much dough that making all the balls the minute it comes off the hook is impossible. Most of the balls will be made after a rest automatically.

Using a starter might seem complex but many bakeries just mix in leftover dough. It's a no brainer.

The process is not that complex to do, it's just that reverse engineering it is hard.

Most joints probably don't use any real steps and it shows in their pizza, but the very best places do.

Offline PizzaSuperFreak

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Re: Lehman try #4 - pics
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2005, 04:06:48 PM »
varasano,

you're right they're not that complex. in fact, i've been using the autolyse with much success. i guess my point was more to the fact that most dare say all pizzerias woudn't spend that much time on the dough.

i think i'm beginning to understand why many here are so interested in using a starter. it DOES give an added flavor to the dough that you wouldn't otherwise get barring a multi-day proofing period in the chiller.

i guess my point was more to the fact that i'm sure most places don't use it. i'd be more inclined to believe they use a long proofing time in the fridge, if anything.

you all may be surprised to find out the following:
during college, i worked at a Little Caesar's pizza. i believe it's a national chain. anyway, i worked there for about 5 months. their pizza, of course, is horrible. but, and here's the interesting part, they use a 3 DAY proofing period in the walk-in cooler! can you believe such crappy dough comes out of a 3 day chill?

anyway, just fyi.


 

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