Results: 4th Tampa Pizza Party

[Tampa]

Here are the results of the 4th Tampa Pizza Party.  This one was hosted by Don AKA “Papageorgio”.  All the pies were cracker-style patterned after Federici’s in Freehold, NJ.  I assure you everything was authentic, as Don has spent an insane amount of energy and time replicating Federici’s recipe.

Here is a rundown of the photos and ingredients.
 - Breads top to bottom:  NY bakery style using KAAP by Bobino414, NY bakery style using Kyrol by Bobino414, Tardine Rustic Country by Straybullet
 - Shrimp with scallions, fresh garlic, tomatoes, moz, romano, and olive oil
 - Tomato with onion, basil, fresh garlic, tomato sauce w/ romano, moz cheese
 - Tomato pre-bake
 - Bratwurst and Jalapeno with moz cheese and tomato sauce with romano
 - Cracker crust

Hopefully I captured everything accurately.  If you have questions, refer to the proper chef.  My only contribution was being the cameraman (and I ate more pizza than anyone else – some say by far, but I dispute that).  Going into this meal, Don was the only guy committed to cracker-style pizza.  Now I’m looking to buy a Federici’s T shirt, size XXL or larger.  Bobino414, the chef behind more than 414 cheese-only pizzas, is adding shrimp/tomatoes/scallions to his next pie.

For others thinking about hosting a local party, I recommend it.  This gathering was a cracker extravaganza, the previous party included a deep dish pie, a bananas foster desert pie, plus others.  The next pizza party is being planned at Peter Taylor’s “Wood Fired Pizza”.  Pete kindly offered to host and will cook whatever we bring in his wood fired oven.

Dave

[Bobino414]

Don made cracker crust converts out of all of us.  His pies are very tasty.

Regarding the breads:  the idea was to compare Sullivan Street Bakery (Lahey) with Tartine rustic.
In the photo the top bread was a Lahey no knead made with KAAP, middle bread was made with Kyrol, bottom Tartine.  The crumb of all three had a similar consistency regarding chew and moistness.  The Lahey breads appeared more open and airy.  The crust of the Lahey breads was crispier but this was due to a second bake for 5 minutes at 350 after the bread had cooled off.  Without the second bake I think the crust would be similar; at least they felt similar.  The taste was clearly different with the Tartine having a slight pleasant sourdough flavor (not the too sour flavor that I usually get in SF).  The starter in the Tartine loaf produced an inviting complex flavor which stimulated additional discussion like critiquing a fine wine (I think I detect some gooseberry with a hint of peanut butter).  The flavor of the Lahey breads was enhanced by baking them with sesame seeds.  Overall I thought the crumb was too moist.  I need to figure out how to maintain the open crumb structure but with a drier crumb.  Help here would be appreciated.  The Lahey breads were baked to an internal temp of 208-210.

I too was caught up in the Tartine frenzy, so I purchased the book and the Lodge combo cooker cast iron pot.  I have now made several doughs in the Lodge pot with I think good results.  The downside to these pots is they are care intensive.  I decided to try baking the bread in a ceramic lined cast iron pot-LeCreuset.  So far the results have been similar but the ceramic lined pot requires little care.  More comparison baking would be required before I finalize my thought on this.  But for those strapped for storage space, single duty items don't make sense.  If you go the LeCreuset route you need to swap out the cover knob which is plasticoid with a metal handle like a kitchen cabinet door knob.

Bob

[norma427]

Dave,

Your 4th Tampa Pizza Party sounds like all of you had fun.  I enjoyed the write-up about the breads and also how you all like cracker crusts now. The pictures of your cracker crust pizzas look great.  Wow, and planning to have your next pizza party at Peter’s Taylor’s “Wood Fired Pizza”.    I will be waiting to hear the results of that also. 


Norma

[Tampa]

Thanks Norma.  It's always a pleasure to hear from you.  You are always invited.
Dave

[norma427]

Thanks Norma.  It's always a pleasure to hear from you.  You are always invited.
Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the invite.  I would love to try all of your pizzas.    You guys seem to have so much fun and I always enjoy hearing about what kind of pies that were made.  I recently also started liking thin cracker-crispy, thin pizzas, so I was interested in hearing about the ones you all made.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

This one was hosted by Don AKA “Papageorgio”.  All the pies were cracker-style patterned after Federici’s in Freehold, NJ.  I assure you everything was authentic, as Don has spent an insane amount of energy and time replicating Federici’s recipe.

Since we have many members from NJ, perhaps Don can share his Federici clone dough recipe and related methods with the forum?

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

I wish I was living closer to you guys so I can party it up with ya'll.   

[Papageorgio]

Thanks Tampa for doing the photos and the write up and Bobino414 for the wonderful compliments. The bread was fantastic. Baked French toast the next day...yum!

After many failures here is the secret to my eventual success.

The dough making process is amazingly simple so don't over complicate it.

For two 15" doughs I use 1/2 cup milk...1/2 cup water.
Bring it to proper temperature( just warm to the touch) and add 1/2 tsp. SAF instant yeast. Let sit for 15 minutes.
Add:
1/2 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp salt

Wisk to blend well

With liqiud mixture in a mixing bowl begin adding flour. (Sams club H&R all purpose flour)
Note: I do NOT use a measured amount of flour. I go completely by feel.

Keep adding small amounts of flour. The mix turns into what appears to be pancake batter. At this point I'm using a whisk to ensure the flour is well mixed. Keep slowly adding flour until mixture is too thick for whisk then switch to a Danish whisk I got from Breadtopia online.

Keep adding more and more flour until mix becomes just dry enough to handle with your hands without sticking. Dry enough to where I can pick it up and roll it into a ball with no sticking. No kneading required. This entire process should take no more than 10 minutes start to finish. Yes, it's that easy. Place the dough in a bowl, cover with Saran wrap and let sit on the counter for a 24 hour rise at room temperature. This 24 hour rise will incorporate much flavor to the minimal thickness crust. (watch the video)

IMPORTANT: as the dough begins to rise it will need to be pushed back down. I do this 3 times during the 24 hour period.(don't over do it) It will double in size within the first 3 hours. This punch down is important to allow the accumulated gas to escape and allow fresh oxygen for the yeast to remain active. The last punch down will have a smell of alcohol or brewed beer. It will become very wet again during this 24 process.

At the end of 24 hours I now empty the wet jelly fish onto a pile of fresh dry flour. Use a spoon to slowly pour it out as it's very wet and sticky. sprinkle flour all around and work some into the dough while folding a few times. Once it reaches a point where it feels like a normal, soft, fluffy dough divide it into two equal halves. They will be small dough balls but don't worry your going to roll it out thin and I assure you it will be just a right amount of dough. You can either roll out a pizza right then OR I like to take the two doughs and place them in a pan, cover with saran wrap and put in the fridge for another 24 hours. Once chilled the dough is very easy to work and rolls out very smoothly.

When ready to roll... drop dough on a well floured surface and press it out to start and then use a rolling pin to take it very thin. Around 1/16" thick. I don't care if it's round or not. Pie should be around 15" in diameter. Make sure the dough is well floured and is not sticky. Feels a little like a piece of leather at about the same thickness.

Place on perforated aluminium pan and place on open grate for about 1 minute to just skin the surface of the dough. Remove from oven and apply toppings. Slide pie onto stone right from pan. No peel needed.(Oven pre-heated to 485. My heat laser gun from harbor Freight shows my stone is 530 degrees F.)

Note: if dough sticks to the pan it was too wet. Add more flour on your next attempt. Make sure the dough is loose on the pan prior to adding the toppings.

The pizza shown in photos cooks for a fair amount of time. I don't time it. I look at it and when it looks well done then pull it. You want the outer edges to look a little brown with an overall well done appearance. Pizza cheese should be be bubbling while cooking and some may over flow onto the stone. (watch video)

On more tip... The tomato sauce goes all the way to the outer edge. There is very little roll if any near the edge.

Watch this video (Vito & Nicks) and it should help through the entire process. Man those pies look delicious.

  

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM</a>

Enjoy

[norma427]

Papageorgio,

Thanks for sharing how you have experimented to make such delicious looking thin-crust pizzas.  I appreciate you sharing your recipe.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Don,

Thanks for posting your method for making the cracker crust pizzas. As I was reading your writeup, my mind kept harking back to the Vito & Nick video you referenced, which several of our members, including me, have been using to try to reverse engineer and clone the V&N pizzas. I don't know if you have been following that effort but it is detailed in a series of posts starting at Reply 110 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6368.msg117062.html#msg117062. You use more milk than V&N says it uses and you use a bit of sugar and, I believe, more IDY, but there are many similarities. My objective of late has been to quantify as many of the ingredients as possible in order to increase the chances of getting uniform and consistent results. In my experience with cracker style crusts, if the amount of flour is off too much or the crust thickness isn't just right, you can end up with a finished crust that doesn't have the precise textural characteristics desired. Fortunately, the results are still highly edible in most cases.

Peter

[BTB]

Great looking pizzas and a different but interesting methodology.  Don's system would not seem to be easily duplicated by someone else as it seems in some respects like a very personal thing.  But he's like an artist that while painting a picture, looks at the canvas and says he's needs a little more paint here . . . and a little more there.  And dabbles around till it looks the way he wants it.  That's the way they made pizzas a hundred and fifty years or more ago.  What?  No big KA mixing machine?  No bread machine?  No food processor?  No peels?  No timing of the bake?  What's this pizzamaking world coming to?

Very nice job.                                                 
                                                                 --BTB                              

[Papageorgio]

BTB... Thank you, you hit the nail on the head. The project has been from the start to make a primitive, minimalistic pizza with the least amount of fuss. Some people play music by reading the notes and some people play music by feel and emotion.

Pete-zza... Aside from the recipe, one important thing that Vito and Nicks does as well as Federicci's is that they take the tomato sauce to the outer edge. Notice how the cheese over flows the edge. Those browned outer edges are the most flavorful part of the pizza. When you eat this pizza it all gets consumed. Nothing left. I have taken notice over the years that the majority of people who have a conventional pizza with the outer roll view this as a handle of sorts and end up discarding the crust. On the food channel they did a competition of N.Y. thin crust vs. Chicago deep dish. It was served to firemen in N.Y., then in Chicago, then a neutral based California group. The thin crust won BUT the most interesting part was how ALL the fireman did NOT eat the outer roll of crust. At the end of the meal there was a huge pile of crusts to be thrown away. You will not find that on my pizza. At he end of the meal there are no crusts to be found.

Pete, you say I use more milk than V&N. She puts in the flour 1/2 gallon of milk but doesn't say how much water. She also looks at the dough as it's mixing and decides it needs a little more water. She is mixing this dough more by look and feel than she is by actual measurements. Exactly what I do.

I don't think the milk effects crispness. I have done side by side tests of dough with milk and without. The benefit of milk is it has more rise during the 24 hour. At the end of 24 hours the smell is more pungently strong. The dough has more flavor. The recipe works well using just water also. Experiment.

[Pete-zza]

Pete, you say I use more milk than V&N. She puts in the flour 1/2 gallon of milk but doesn't say how much water. She also looks at the dough as it's mixing and decides it needs a little more water. She is mixing this dough more by look and feel than she is by actual measurements. Exactly what I do.

Don,

You are correct that the amount of water is not specified in the V&N video. However, I estimated that it would take a lot of water to get to a hydration of around 65%, which was my estimate based on the degree of wetness of the dough that I saw in the video. If you run the numbers I think that you will find that you would need water at multiples of the 12% milk (my calculation based on the weight of flour) to end up with a total effective hydration of around 65%. Of course, if someone wants to replace more of the V&N formula water with milk, that should work since you demonstrated the viability of such an apportionment when you used equal volumes of milk and water.

It is true that Rosemary in the video makes the dough more by look and feel, but since V&N has been making pizzas since 1949 (according to their website), allegedly using the same dough recipe, I am sure that it didn't take long for her and other workers over the years to figure out how to make the dough using only volume measurements. It is in my nature to try to nail everything down when trying to reverse engineer and clone someone else's dough. That way, others might be able to get to the promised land sooner than by using brute force experimentation.

Peter

[Tampa]

Chau,
Come on down!  We've got pie for you.  I think you might even like the crumb - if I can ever figure out how to slide it off the peel (instead of making a calzone w/ the cheese on the outside).  Don't ask.  And no, I didn't take a picture.  I'm lucky to still be married.
Dave