Author Topic: NY pie sauce over cheese  (Read 3562 times)

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Offline communist

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NY pie sauce over cheese
« on: June 23, 2011, 09:51:10 PM »
I have been enjoying a NY pie baked on steel at 530 with a 4 minute bake.  I use the broiler for the first 45 seconds, and it gives me great oven spring.  Frequently, however, I have had to limit the broiler to 45 seconds because my cheese will begin to brown, and I just do not like the look of browning cheese.  I have been using Grande whole milk, and I think this is the one of the most resistant to browning.  But the negative is that I just do not get that sort of near char on the top crust rim if I cut the broiler after 40 to 45 seconds.  Tonight I made my usual pie, but put the cheese on in slices first, and topped with sauce.  I kept my broiler on for over a minute, and was happy with my rim color.  It seems the sauce protects the cheese, and I can cook the top better without worrying over browning cheese.  My wife also wondered if the cheese "protected" the underlying crust, and did not allow the sauce to make the crust soggy.  I could imagine that my crust was airy and higher than ever, but cannot be sure of this after one pie.  We both thought the taste was different simply because of the change of tomato and sausce layers.  We both thought we could taste the sauce more.  I had done this in the past, but because my oldest daughter like the taste of cheese over sauce, I have been doing cheese over sauce for the past year.  Any similar experiences?  Mark


Offline trosenberg

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2011, 05:49:21 AM »
On Long Island when you put the sauce over the cheese it is called a "grandma" pie & they are fairly popular here.  I agree that although it is the same ingredients the flavor differs.
Trosenberg

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2011, 08:54:18 AM »
Mark,

For the very reason your wife mentioned, I have used the cheese first (in sliced form) and sauce on top of the cheese for crispy, cracker style pizzas, as discussed, for example, at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53174.html#msg53174.

Of course, there are other styles of pizzas that reverse the cheese/sauce sequence, such as the Chicago deep-dish style, where I believe that one of the reasons for placing the cheese (slices or shredded) down first (before a lot of potentially wet fillings and sauce are loaded on top of the cheese) is to keep the bottom crust from getting soggy. Buddy's in the metro Detroit area also places the sauce on top of the cheese (shredded/grated brick cheese) for its famous square pizzas but the sauce is deposited in dollops/strips, as can be seen in the photo at http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20090810-buddys.jpg. Mack's and Mack's and Manco's on the NJ boardwalk use two layers of cheese (shredded) with sauce in between in a circular/spiral pattern. You can see this method from Norma's clone attempt in the last photo in Reply 599 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg135078.html#msg135078. The Mack's and Mack's and Manco's pizzas use white cheddar cheese, which is prone to a lot of oiling off, so using two layers with the sauce in between may help reduce the oiling off somewhat (the pizza will still be greasy, however) and maybe protect some of the cheese from excessive heat.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2011, 09:58:35 AM »
Grimaldi's puts the cheese directly on the dough and then the sauce on top - you can see it in this video: http://www.grimaldisnyc.com/p-i-z-z-a#!__p-i-z-z-a/vstc3=media

The link is not working right for some reason - after you click on it, click "media" at the top of the page.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2011, 10:09:19 AM »
I use the broiler for the first 45 seconds, and it gives me great oven spring.  Frequently, however, I have had to limit the broiler to 45 seconds because my cheese will begin to brown, and I just do not like the look of browning cheese. 

You might consider a circular piece of aluminum foil for protection of the cheese, but not the rim, while it is under the broiler or during part of the bake.  Maybe that would help some. 
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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2011, 10:15:00 AM »
I neglected to mention that DeLorenzo's also uses sauce on top of the cheese (shredded): Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44343.html#msg44343.

Peter

Offline communist

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2011, 02:13:29 PM »
Thanks for the tips and thoughts.  Delorenza's and Grimaldi's are interesting, Craig and Peter. The deflector idea is interesting JetDeck.  I use the reverse principle when I put foil around my apple pie crust rim to prevent overbrowning of the crust.  I think it may work in reverse to my advantage.  Trosensberg, I am glad you think it does alter the taste, as I do.  Mark

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2011, 05:26:24 PM »
One of the oldest pizzerias in the country does this....Totonno's Coney Island.

A few NY Style joints are offering a similar type cheese-sauce application (upside down pies, etc) like NY Pizza Suprema.

The new joint in Baltimore, Chazz: A Bronx Original is doing it too.

Totonno's Video (cheese application at 44 secs)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27MgNqQ59Ac" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27MgNqQ59Ac</a>


Chazz Video

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhNjgrDDRpk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhNjgrDDRpk</a>
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Offline jjdec05

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2011, 06:33:44 PM »
Great link Craig.  Interesting to hear they use oil and sugar in their dough, never would have expected that.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2011, 11:31:28 PM »
Great link Craig.  Interesting to hear they use oil and sugar in their dough, never would have expected that.

That surprised me too. It was the first time I ever saw it.

CL
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Offline scott123

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2011, 12:24:10 AM »
Mark, both John's of Bleeker and one of the Patsy's locations put the cheese under the sauce. Based on this, and the other coal places listed in this thread, I think it's safe to make the claim that cheese under sauce is a core attribute of NY coal pizza (but definitely NOT a core attribute of the NY slice). Since you're firmly ensconced in a coal bake time and a typical coal level of char, it makes perfect sense for you to gravitate towards a coal approach to cheese.

Now, this being said, I do feel that it's important to point out that, as you and your wife both noticed, sauce on top brings out the flavor in the sauce more.  This is very basic physiology.  What we perceive as taste is mostly smell, and, whatever is on top of the slice is going to waft back and up to the smell receptors first, and thus have greater impact. There is no free lunch (or dinner) here, if you emphasis the sauce, you're in effect, de-emphasizing the cheese. For the slice lover that lays awake at night dreaming about properly bubbled WM grande's rich, buttery flavor, this is pretty much blasphemy.


Personal fetishes aside  ;D I think there's a small chance that you might be able to avoid cheese browning while getting good rim color and yet still keep the cheese on top.  Didn't the late broil technique give you less browning/more grease on the cheese?  Where are you at with hydration? Dropping a point or two could promote browning/rigidity while still not altering your oven spring a great deal.  I would also, from a browning perspective, add a bit more sugar and oil to the dough. Other than that, use cold sauce and make sure your cheese is cold as well- and not too finely grated.

You are spending pretty good money on Grande, correct?  You might as well try a few workarounds to see what you get before burying it under the sauce and losing all that beautiful flavor (and fat).

Offline communist

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Re: NY pie sauce over cheese
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2011, 10:39:35 PM »
Scott, Thanks for the tips.  You are right, I lean towards a coal NY pizza.  In fact I have dreams of a coal fired oven one day for my pizzas.  I realize heat is heat, but because taste is so subjective, I can't help but think the coal fuel source will help my pies.  I have a coal miner heritage in NE Pennsylvania, heart of anthracite coal, and dream of a coal oven.  I do notice old coal stoves for sale now and then, but I would imagine the coal is in a separate chamber, and may not impact taste at all.  I am hesitant to pick up a piece of heavy junk and fill my house with carbon monoxide. Any at home coal set-ups out there?  Can you power a wood fired oven with coal?  Your comments on the cheese are right on target.  My oldest daughter is a cheese lover, and I still have to do a cheese on top for her.  I do have my sauce and cheese cold  from the refrigerator for her pie, and I will try your suggestion of dropping hydration a bit, and maybe adding some sugar and/oil.  Thanks again,  Mark


 

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