Author Topic: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish  (Read 5536 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« on: November 27, 2010, 08:48:52 PM »
Earlier this summer, I took a pizza trip to Seattle and had the pleasure of eating at Serious Pie.  One of the pizzas I ate there was simply the best I have every had.  It sure opened my eyes to the possibilities available.  Since then, I have played around with different recipes, trying to replicate what I ate.  It wasn't until I re read Peter Reinhart's "Artisan Breads Every Day", and started playing with his neo-neopolitan recipe, that I came up with maybe a breakthrough.  I also read information on this site relative to Serious Pie which I incorportated into my startegies.  The following picture is a pizza from Serious Pie and is simply the best pizza I've ever eaten......this is the crust I'd love to replicate.
John


Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2010, 09:10:05 PM »
After messing around with differing hydration rates, I've ended up at 75%.  I've tried all the way up to 90% and while the crust was tasty, the pizza was ugly because the dough was just too hard to handle.  I've also added a poolish step, after reading on this site this might be a method to their dough.

Here is my recipe:

flour (KA bread flour, divided)        100%
cold tap water  (divided)                 75%
salt                                             2%
yeast  instant SAF                         .45%
honey                                         4.2%

To make six ten ounce doughs:
flour  33.1 oz  divided
water 24.85 oz divided
salt .65 oz
yeast .25 oz
honey  2.50 oz


















Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2010, 09:26:35 PM »
Take 9 oz of flour, 9 oz of water and mix with the smallest pinch of yeast to make a poolish.  Cover and let set at room temp for 12 hours.  After 12 hours add the remaining ingredients with poolish and mix for 1 minute...it will be pretty well blended.  Let dough rest 5 minutes to hydrate the flour.  Mix on medium low speed for 2 to 3 minutes.  Spread one tablespoon of olive oil on a sheet pan, and then use a dough scraper to transfer dough to sheet pan.  Rub your hands with the oil and do a four way stretch and fold.  Divide your dough into 10 oz pieces...(you might not be able to ball them) and place them in oiled containers and refrigerate.  I've used the dough after 12 hours refrigeration and up to 7 days with good results.  The following is the best one yet...it was refrigerated for 36 hours, taken out, balled and let set for 30 minutes before opening and dressing.  It was amazing.  I will never get to try this in a wood fired oven (like Serious Pie), but in my deck oven and in my home oven....this one is a keeper!!
John

Offline norma427

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 09:51:00 PM »
John,

Your Neo-Neopolitan with poolish pie looks delicious.  :)  Your hard work replicating what you tasted in the Serious Pie, sure paid off!  Your pie looks just like the real Serious pie.

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 10:44:28 PM »
John,
That came out looking fantastic!

Am I to understand that there is a 12 hour autolyse type of poolish at room temps?
I have never heard of one that long,just curious.

Also,can this be done by hand or do you think having a mixer is a plus? I don't have a mixer yet so cannot know how much to mix by hand since it is a different style of dough than Im used to making.

When you said,
Mix on medium low speed for 2 to 3 minutes.  Spread one tablespoon of olive oil on a sheet pan, and then use a dough scraper to transfer dough to sheet pan.  Rub your hands with the oil and do a four way stretch and fold.  Divide your dough into 10 oz pieces...(you might not be able to ball them) and place them in oiled containers and refrigerate.

I have a few questions...

When you pour the dough out of the mixing bowl,using the scraper,how does it look? Is it smooth,baby bottom smooth,or a bit clumpy,or is it scrappy or flour-y at first?
Any pics?

How come we may not be able to ball them yet after the folds?Just fold and ball them after they come out of  cold fridge rise instead?

Sorry for all these questions...

Glad you had a breakthrough for yourself!
 :chef:








-Bill

Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 11:06:01 PM »
Norma, thanks, the pizza even tastes better than it looks....I wish I could describe the texture, it was lighter than air though.

Bill, most of the poolishes I've used (when making bread) are from 12 to 16 hours.  They have a very nice sweet smell and they rise...the trick is to catch it before it falls.
Peter Reinhart explains in his book that one can mix by hand....and his method should be perfect for using your hands as the mix times are very, very short.
The mixed dough is a very thick batterlike consistency....you really have to scrape to get it out of the bowl.  After you scale your dough, it is very sticky...sometimes I can ball them, but other times I just plop the dough in its container and throw it in the fridge.
After refrigeration, with well oiled hands one can ball the dough a half hour before baking.

Honestly Bill....this is the simplest dough I have ever tried

Next time I make some...this week, I'll take some pictures of the dough
JOhn

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2010, 12:21:15 AM »
Nice crumb shot fazarri, the pie looks good from a crust point of view.   Let's see 75% HR using BF, lighter than air you say? hmmmm......I've heard that somewhere before.   ;)

You may want to update your recipe to include the oil you used in the pan.  What is the temp you are baking these at and how long are you baking.   

Chau

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2010, 05:39:18 AM »
look's great
the first and the secend

michael

Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2010, 08:26:45 PM »
JT
The reason I don't add the oil used to the recipe is: this is the way Peter Reinhart originally wrote his recipe, making oil and sugar optional in the dough mixing phase.  Another major reason I don't include it is because the amount of oil one uses will depend on the hydration rate of the dough, and simply how the dough feels at any particular time one makes it.  I've had to use more when I was using 90% rates, and have used less when using 70% rates.

The following pizza is made with the same dough above only this was refrigerated for 60 hours.
John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2010, 09:09:42 PM »
JT
The reason I don't add the oil used to the recipe is: this is the way Peter Reinhart originally wrote his recipe, making oil and sugar optional in the dough mixing phase.  Another major reason I don't include it is because the amount of oil one uses will depend on the hydration rate of the dough, and simply how the dough feels at any particular time one makes it.  I've had to use more when I was using 90% rates, and have used less when using 70% rates.

The following pizza is made with the same dough above only this was refrigerated for 60 hours.
John

Ahhh I see.  Interesting that you add more oil when using a higher hydrated dough.  It usually works just the opposite for me.   But I agree, pizza dough should be made by feel as well with the adjustments.   Good work.  I was kidding with you a bit about high hydration doughs and airy crumbs as I have been preaching that pretty much since I joined the forum. 

Keep making those pizzas,
Chau


Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 01:32:58 AM »
This week, I'm experimenting more with this method.  The dough this week is made from Roma's oo flour.  It is also hand mixed.  I would guess total mix time to be about 5 minutes.  I didn't know what to expect this week...I wasn't sure I could get much color from the oo flour, and I wasn't sure about my mixing procedures.  But the following is a dough which was refrigerated 5 days...it was "lighter than helium" and delicious!!!  It was baked in a 600 degree deck oven for about 5 minutes.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 01:48:01 AM »
Great job Fazarri.  Great looking crumb.  I can just about taste the crust.  :chef:

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 07:22:04 AM »
This week, I'm experimenting more with this method.  The dough this week is made from Roma's oo flour.  It is also hand mixed.  I would guess total mix time to be about 5 minutes.  I didn't know what to expect this week...I wasn't sure I could get much color from the oo flour, and I wasn't sure about my mixing procedures.  But the following is a dough which was refrigerated 5 days...it was "lighter than helium" and delicious!!!  It was baked in a 600 degree deck oven for about 5 minutes.

John


John,

Your pie does look so light and airy.  ;D  Great looking pizza and it is interesting that you obtained such a nice brown crust using Romaís ď00" flour.  I am curious to know if you think the added honey contributed to your browned crust or do you think it was the higher hydration, or a combination of both.  I have problems in my deck oven with getting crusts that have your degree of browning. 

I havenít attempted such a high hydration dough, except in Sicilian doughs, but find how you went about making your dough very interesting.  Both of your attempts seem to give about the same results using different flours.  Great experiments!  :chef:

I used the preferment calculating tool to figure out a high hydration dough for an experiment for this week.  I just wish I could get close to your same results.

Norma
« Last Edit: December 06, 2010, 07:23:46 AM by norma427 »
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2010, 06:08:08 PM »
Looking great!
 :chef:

5 days in the fridge eh? How did the dough smell? Did it rise alot?
 :)
-Bill

Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2010, 10:48:39 PM »
As for the browning of this dough, I don't have a theory.  At this point in the game, I am only an observer, an experimenter, and a voracious reader for anything to do with bread or pizza dough.  So, this week, I want try mixing the dough by hand (I found a cool video on how to knead wet dough), and I will leave out the honey.  I want to see what changes this might do to the dough...I'll let you see my results.
Five days in fridge and this dough has doubled and is loaded with holes...and it still smells good!!
John

Offline norma427

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2010, 10:56:28 PM »
As for the browning of this dough, I don't have a theory.  At this point in the game, I am only an observer, an experimenter, and a voracious reader for anything to do with bread or pizza dough.  So, this week, I want try mixing the dough by hand (I found a cool video on how to knead wet dough), and I will leave out the honey.  I want to see what changes this might do to the dough...I'll let you see my results.
Five days in fridge and this dough has doubled and is loaded with holes...and it still smells good!!
John

John,

Thanks for observing what is happening with your doughs.  :)  I am only an observer, too.  I made a dough today that has honey in the formula and also is a high hydration.  I let the dough sit at room temperature all day, and now it is going to be cold fermenting until tommorrow. 

Will be interesting to see your results.  I am also trying to learn how bread dough and pizza dough are about the same.

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2010, 01:09:20 AM »
Norma, here is some pictures from my final dough of this batch.  I think I remember JT commenting that the longer his dough is in the cooler, the more color he gets on his pizzas.  I concur, the color on this one is amazing.  I've started the next batch without honey today, for more fun experimenting
John

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2010, 02:56:52 AM »
Wow,those look great!Sure look tasty too!
 :chef:

Thanks for sharing all of it with us.
 8)

-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 08:45:27 AM »
Norma, here is some pictures from my final dough of this batch.  I think I remember JT commenting that the longer his dough is in the cooler, the more color he gets on his pizzas.  I concur, the color on this one is amazing.  I've started the next batch without honey today, for more fun experimenting
John


John,

Thanks for posting pictures of your pizza and commenting on your latest pizza. Your pizza looks delicious and the crust color looks amazing.  ;D You have found the right combinations for your pizzas. Was your dough cold fermented for 6 days?  Do you mind telling what the bake temperatures were for this pie? 

Good to hear you are going to be trying the formula without honey.  Will be anxious to see how those results will be.  Have fun with your experiments.  They can teach us all.  :)

Norma
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Offline fazzari

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Re: Neo-Neopolitan with poolish
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 07:08:22 PM »
Norma, this was in the fridge 7 days...and was baked in my hottest deck oven....when I took the temp it was between 615 and 620.

John


 

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