Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas

[BTB]

Ryan,
 
Differences in tastes make the world go around I guess.  When it was suggested to you above to use a bamboo skewer to pop or burst and lay down those bubbles that often develop in the pizza skin when baking, you shrugged it off saying you like bubbles, and that's fine.  Appreciate that pizzerias have went through many hoops developing instruments and dockers to minimize or prevent much of that.  Why?  Could it be that most people and pizzamakers don't like bubbles.  While I like a bubble or two, I don't like too many and don't like big ones especially on the baked pizza skin and would send it back to the kitchen if such were served to me. 
 
And Escalon's 6 in 1's are in my estimation one of the best tomato products in the business, in addition to Pastines, Malnati's, Glen Muir, and many others.  And I don't remember anything approaching an excessive salty taste to their product and I've used it many times over the years.  So we differ on that and I for one just don't want that statement to go unanswered.
 
I've never had a Tommy's pizza.  Matter of fact, I've never heard of Tommy's pizza except through this thread recently. I can appreciate one longing for that special taste sensation that they've experienced long ago and now "hanker" for as I've been in that situation many times, too. 
 
Long ago when I visited in Columbus on business, I remember some good pizzas, but frankly the cobwebs of time obscured the names of the places in my memory.  One of them could have been Tommy's.  And long ago in 1977 I attended a football game there in Columbus between my alma mater, Oklahoma University, and Ohio State, one of the few times those two teams ever played each other.  It was one of the most exciting games in college football in which there were almost a record number of turnovers on both sides.  And the one thing I'll never forget was my alma mater winning by one point! 
 
Good luck with you pizzamaking efforts and I hope you reach your Tommy's pizza Valhalla, I really do.
 
                                                                                                     --BTB

[AimlessRyan]

I’m curious to find out if anyone is actually interested in the information I’ve shared throughout this thread. Has anyone followed the procedures I’ve described? Or have you tried any of the dough formulations? Does anyone have anything to say about my pics? Any criticism or suggestions? Anything?

I can understand why there hasn’t been much interaction because I know most of you have never been to Tommy’s, but is anyone remotely interested in what I’ve had to say here? If so, please speak up.

Good luck with you pizzamaking efforts and I hope you reach your Tommy's pizza Valhalla, I really do.

Thanks BTB.

[Tscarborough]

I read them all,  keep posting.

[AimlessRyan]

I read them all,  keep posting.

Sweet!

(I'm making my first deep dish at this very moment; put it in the oven about five minutes ago.)

[AimlessRyan]

Here’s the formula for my latest dough:

Flour (100%):    453.60 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs
Water (43.75%):    198.45 g | 7 oz | 0.44 lbs
ADY (0.63%):    5.69 g | 0.20 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Salt (1.08%):    5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Oil (14.88%):    67.47 g | 2.38 oz | 0.15 lbs | 15 tsp | 5 tbsp
Sugar (.76%):    0.42 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
Total (161.09%):   731 g | 25.77 oz | 1.61 lbs | TF = N/A.

The only change I made from the “best yet” formula is in the hydration level. (The “best yet” formula is 37.5%.) The first pizza I made with this dough (after a 24-hour bulk ferment at room temperature) was much better than I anticipated, but the pizza I made after the bulk ferment plus another 2 days in the fridge wasn’t as good. So it looks like anything from 35% to 40% hydration works pretty well for a Tommy’s clone.

The ‘best yet’ formulation and procedures are becoming pretty well set in stone, with a few exceptions. The one thing that’s still giving me trouble is the separation of crust on the edge, which results from laminating the dough. The separation doesn’t affect the taste or presentation negatively, but I still want to eliminate this characteristic because Tommy’s pizza doesn’t separate.

It’s been several days since I’ve made a pizza, and it’s gonna be at least several more days before I make another one because my body has been screaming for me to get back on an anti-Candida diet. Ah, what misery. The good thing, though, is that the anti-Candida diet really works. I’m convinced almost all common contemporary illnesses are merely symptoms of Candida overgrowth. Even illnesses you’d never think have anything to do with your diet.

Anyway, here are a couple pics of other types of pizza I’ve made recently. The NY style pizza was made with same-day dough, although I generally use dough that’s at least a day old. (No, I don’t bake on the screen.) The deep dish is only my second attempt at that style. This one was really good.

[Miss Spyder]

I don't know much about making pizza, actually I just now signed up to this forum to learn about it at the suggestion (instruction?) of my husband, so I feel a little bit weird giving advice to you pros.  But I do know something about baked goods, like dessert pies and turnovers and pastries, and one thing my mother taught me is that you'll never get a flaky crust using oil as the fat in the dough.  A solid fat like butter or shortening (I like a 50/50 butter/shortening mix) is critical.  Don't melt it, just use it at room temperature and work it into the dough, but don't over mix it.  You want some solid pieces of fat surrounded by dough, since this is what causes the actual flakes (and that's why oil doesn't work).  Use a little bit more than the amount of oil you're used to, since it's less liquidy.  So yes, a solid fat is essential for flakyness, and I bet this Tommy's you're trying to replicate uses it in their dough.  Pretty much for sure, judging by the pictures.  This was suggested by a couple of people early in this thread.  Is there a reason you didn't try it?

Edit:  If the oil is essential to your dough for some other reason, you could try making your dough the way you're used to with the oil, then adding the butter/shortening afterward as an addition, but I don't know how that would come out with regard to flakyness.  I would first try it substituting the oil for a solid fat.  If you use google and search for "baking flaky crust" you come up with a bunch of stuff that gets into the science behind it, which is way farther than my mother ever took my childhood baking lessons. 

[AimlessRyan]

I finally made a trip to Tommy's today, I think for the first time since October 2007 (after a pointless OSU/Kent State "game" at the Shoe). I figured out a lot about their pizza today, beginning with the fact that it's not really all that great, yet it's awesome at the same time. I took a lot of pictures, but I don’t know if they’re any good. I’ll post some of the pics later.

Even though my ‘best yet’ Tommy’s clone (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg120916.html#msg120916) is a lot like Tommy’s pizza, I still have a way to go. With what I’ve learned just by eating a Tommy’s pizza today, though, I can probably copy it now. However, it’ll probably be at least several days before I give it a try.

Here are some things I figured out about Tommy’s pizza today:

• They use dark perforated pans, essentially the same as the pan shown in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg119720.html#msg119720. The pans are not seasoned, but they are medium-dark gray. I don’t know if you’d call them anodized, but the gray color looks like a coating from the factory.
• Every pizza goes through a conveyor oven.
• They’ll finish your pizza in the deck oven if you ask them to, but the pizza never leaves the pan until it’s ready to be cut.
• Although Tommy’s pizza is pretty salty, there is very little salt in the dough.
• The crust most definitely is laminated, but I think they use a different method than any method I’ve either tried or seen on these boards. (I’ll elaborate later.)
• Their dough has much less oil than my best yet formula; probably about half as much.
• The dough has a very low hydration. It’s probably about the same hydration level that I’ve already been using, but stiffer due to less oil.
• Tommy’s uses less cheese than I used for the pizza in my most recent pics: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg120916.html#msg120916.
• The cheese is probably a smoked provolone of mediocre quality.
• Tommy’s pizza is a tad bit thicker than the replicas I’ve made. (I may be able to elaborate later.)
• There’s not a lot of sauce on the pizza, and its flavor is not very noticeable. It’s almost certainly made from a heavily concentrated tomato product, as its color is very dark.
• The pepperoni is very thin and it curls slightly. I suspect it is Hormel (but not the same type of Hormel pepperoni you’d find in a grocery store).
• They shake a little Romano or Parmesan cheese on each pizza.
• Sizes are 11”, 13”, and 15”.

I took a lot of pictures while I was eating in the restaurant, but I had a hard time getting the camera to focus. Hopefully some of the pics turned out pretty well. If they didn’t, maybe I can get some decent pics of the leftovers that are in the fridge right now. Even if they all suck, I will post a lot of pics soon.

[briterian]

Thanks Ryan for the new update.

[AimlessRyan]

No problem, Briterian.

For people who aren't already familiar with Tommy's, here are a few establishing pics. The first pic is facing pretty much east. In the distance you can see the Lincoln Tower and Morrill Tower dorms. If you have ever watched Ohio State home football games on TV, surely rooting against the Buckeyes (hey, I know how it works), you may recognize these dorms. Between the dorms and the light pole (directly below the steam/smoke), if you look closely you can see the press box of Ohio Stadium. The stadium is about a mile and a half from Tommy's. There is another Tommy's about two miles straight east on Lane Avenue, very close to the stadium.

I don't think I really need to explain the other three pics. More on the way.

[AimlessRyan]

First 3 pics: 15" half cheese, half pepperoni, straight out of the oven, from various angles.

Pic #5 and Pic #6 were supposed to show the layered/laminated texture of Tommy's pizza, but unfortunately they are out of focus. Hopefully I can get some good profile shots of the leftovers before I scarf them down because it'll help to see a good shot of the texture to better understand the laminating procedures I now suspect Tommy's uses.

If there are any other specific types of pics you'd like to see, please let me know ASAP because the leftovers of this pizza will be gone within a few hours.

[Mad_Ernie]

Aimless Ryan:

Great pics! 

Looks might tasty.

Your description of your pilgrimage to Tommy's coupled with the photos really helps me to visualize the pizza.  Looks like a good Midwestern cracker-style crust (cut into squares, of course) 

You said the sauce was not that noticeable and you thought it was from a very concentrated tomato product (paste?).  Anymore you can tell us about that component?  Flavor?  Was it less noticeable because of the amount or because of the flavor?

[AimlessRyan]

Great pics! 

You said the sauce was not that noticeable and you thought it was from a very concentrated tomato product (paste?).  Anymore you can tell us about that component?  Flavor?  Was it less noticeable because of the amount or because of the flavor?

Thanks, ME.

Your questions are pretty tough to answer. Yes, I did mean paste or something similar to paste, diluted to some extent. I guess the only other answer I can provide is that I just have a feeling or a hunch; an educated guess. For one thing, when you take the first bite of any piece of Tommy’s pizza, you don’t pull the whole cheese/topping layer off the crust like you would with a moderate-to-heavily sauced piece of pizza. But also there just isn’t any real presence of tomato flavor. The crust has a very distinct flavor—very unsalty and fermented—which blends nicely with the saltiness above it (from the cheese), but I just don’t taste much of anything in between the crust and the cheese. (Consciously I don’t taste any sauce, but I know it’s there.) Also, Tommy’s is a very dry pizza, which is another indication that they use heavily concentrated, pasty sauce.

To answer your last question (if I haven’t been clear), I think it is less noticeable both because of the amount and the flavor.

In my attempts to replicate Tommy’s, which I’ve based on memories that were a few years old, I went moderately heavy on the sauce. For my sauce, I’ve tried two different products: 1) San Marzanos (slightly pulpy and drained well enough to not be wet); and 2) Escalon 6 In 1 with a little basil added. Now that I’ve re-familiarized myself with Tommy’s by eating there yesterday, I can just tell that they use a much thicker sauce than I use, but they also use much less of it. I mean, just look at my pics compared to the actual Tommy’s pics; I think you should be able to almost feel the difference. Neither the taste nor the color of Tommy’s sauce resembles either the taste or color I’ve gotten from the two different types of sauce I’ve used in my attempt to replicate Tommy’s. So, considering each of my sauces came from very fresh, unconcentrated (canned) tomato product, I think it’s safe to say Tommy’s uses some kind of concentrated, pasty tomato product (which is also considerably cheaper than the tomato products I’ve used).

For the record, I prefer my attempted clones over the actual Tommy’s pizza, partly because I’ve used larger quantities of better quality tomato product than they use at Tommy’s. I’m still going to keep trying to replicate Tommy’s, though, first of all because it’s helping me learn, but also because I really like their crust. I think a Tommy’s crust with higher quality sauce, cheese, and toppings would be freaking phenomenal.

[AimlessRyan]

OK, having just eaten the leftovers, I need to take back a couple things I said today or yesterday. First of all, there's no noticeable saltiness to Tommy's pizza. Not in the crust, nor in the cheese. So just forget I said that. Also, I tried to pay more attention to the sauce as I ate the leftovers, and I'd say it was relatively bland and slightly sweet. Not sugary sweet, though. I wouldn't say anything different than I've already said about the sauce. If you want a Tommy's-style sauce, I'd still say to start with a heavily concentrated tomato product, thin it out (but still keep it pretty thick), and add just enough basil to taste. I didn't notice any other distinct flavors in the sauce, except perhaps a hint of green bell pepper.

[Pete-zza]

Ryan,

Having made many pizzas using doughs with high sugar levels, such as Papa John's clones, I have found that I detected the sweetness more in the reheated leftover slices, not in the original pizza slices. I have no explanation for the phenomenon. But, as a result, I now try to compare my clones with the originals as freshly baked.

Peter

[AimlessRyan]

Having made many pizzas using doughs with high sugar levels, such as Papa John's clones, I have found that I detected the sweetness more in the reheated leftover slices, not in the original pizza slices. I have no explanation for the phenomenon. But, as a result, I now try to compare my clones with the originals as freshly baked.

That's interesting because I usually don’t taste sauce when I reheat leftover pizza. This time, however, I did taste sauce on the leftovers, even though I didn't notice it on the fresh pizza yesterday.

Also, I’m pretty sure the sweetness was actually in the sauce, not the crust. I've concluded with a lot of certainty that Tommy's dough has either no sugar or almost no sugar. I think this is pretty evident if you look at yesterday's "upskirt" pic and compare it to a couple upskirts of pizzas I've made. One of my pizzas had no sugar in the dough (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg119720.html#msg119720), while the other one had a small amount of sugar (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg120916.html#msg120916).

I will soon be making some pretty big changes to my best yet formula. The changes will be: a considerable decrease in salt, considerable decrease in oil, elimination of sugar, and probably a considerable increase of yeast. I'll also decrease the bulk-rise from 24 hours to no more than 6 hours, in addition to the new lamination technique I haven’t described yet.

[chrisgraff]

Hi Ryan,

Great of you to do this.  I have fond memories of eating Tommy's all through my childhood.  Sadly, it didn't live up to my expectations last time I had it.  I agree with your assesment.

Love the fermented smell & crunch of the crust.  Love that they use provolone (a Columbus thing?).

I always thought they used tomato paste in their sauce.  What do you think?  I've tried using it to thicken a typical San Marzano based sauce & liked the result. (EDIT....I just re-read post #51.  Again, spot-on).

Keep up the good work!

[AimlessRyan]

Thanks Chris. It's cool to get a little feedback from people who have had Tommy’s before, especially when it confirms that I’m on the right track (or if it corrects me when I may be wrong).

I just made a batch of dough, using a much different formula than my best yet formula. As you will see below, I’ve made some pretty drastic changes in the percentages of yeast, salt, oil, and sugar. I’m also going to limit the bulk rise to 6 hours or less, rather than 24 hours (partly due to the fact that I’ve doubled the yeast, but also because 24 hours was giving me some borderline overfermented doughs). What I think will really make my next Tommy’s clone great, though, is the new lamination technique, which I intend to outline in a follow-up post very soon (as well as in pictures, once I actually try it).

I’ll probably use Cento crushed tomatoes (with a little added basil) for sauce. I just tried this product for the first time a few weeks ago, and it’s really good. I bought it with the sole intention of using it to make a pasta sauce, assuming it would be a little chunky. However, it turned out to be a puree that’s just about the perfect thickness for pizza sauce. And it tastes good, too. Since I haven’t made any pizzas in at least a few weeks, I haven’t tried this as a pizza sauce yet, but I think it will be very good. It won’t be like Tommy’s sauce, but it will be more like Tommy’s sauce than the other tomato products I’ve used.

Here's the dough formula I used for the batch of dough I just made:

HG Flour    100%
Water    40% (was 37.5)
ADY    1.25% (was 0.63)
Salt    0.5% (was 1.08)
Oil    9% (was 15)
Sugar    0% (was 0.76)

First I added the salt and oil to the flour, then mixed it all up a little. (Even though my formula says 0% sugar, I did use a pinch of sugar just to prove the yeast.) When the yeast water was ready, I poured it into the dry ingredients, then I immediately poured the rest of the very warm water (about 115 degrees) into the dry ingredients. Next I mixed everything by hand for several seconds, just to give the dough hook something solid to grab onto. I then mixed the dough in a Kitchen-Aid mixer with a spiral dough hook for just long enough to bring everything together (probably 3 or 4 minutes).  There was still a little bit of loose flour in the mixing bowl when I stopped mixing.

Following the bulk ferment (which I now suspect will only last 3 hours, tops), I will divide the dough into dough balls. I will not round the dough balls, though, because I don’t want to overdevelop the gluten. Instead, I’m just going to scale the dough into smaller pieces and shape them as if I was making a snowball. (As I’ve already been doing, I will use two separate dough balls for each dough skin.)

I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself, so I’ll stop now. Much more to come.

[AimlessRyan]

Here are a couple more pics of the pizza I bought at Tommy's a few days ago. The second pic shows what I was trying to show in Pic 5 and Pic 6 of Reply 49. Looking at this pic, the first thing you should see is that Tommy's crust has two distinct layers. But you should also be able to see that each of the two layers consists of several laminates (probably nine laminates in each layer). This is what produces the flaky characteristic Briterian and I have alluded to, in addition to a texture that's crispy, crunchy, and chewy all at the same time. To me, these are the main characteristics (along with the fermented flavor) that make Tommy's stand out from other thin, sheeted pizzas. This is what makes Tommy's great.

I'll put up another post very soon, with a detailed description and pics of how I laminated the dough for last night's attempt at cloning Tommy's.

[AimlessRyan]

Regarding lamination of Tommy’s pizza: As I mentioned in a recent post, I am now 100 percent positive that Tommy’s laminates their dough, ending up with two distinct layers. This is evident in the profile of their pizza (where the pizza has been cut), but it is also very clear when you look at the outer edge of their crust. The edge of Tommy’s pizza looks pretty much like the pic in reply #35, except the two layers of Tommy’s pizza do not separate as much as mine did.

Each distinct layer of a Tommy’s pizza appears to be made up of multiple laminates (probably nine laminates within each layer). So instead of using just one dough ball per skin, you need to use two dough balls of equal weight.

Let’s say we’re making a 10” skin. Ideally this skin will weigh 8.5 to 9 oz when it’s ready to use, but since we’ll be rolling it out larger than 10”, then trimming it, we need to start with considerably more than 9 oz of dough. I think 13 oz is an appropriate amount of dough to start with for a 10” skin. But instead of scaling one 13-oz dough ball, you need to scale two 6.5-oz dough balls.

To begin, roll one of the dough balls into a thin, roundish skin (as in Pic 1), then fold it into thirds (Pic 2 and Pic 3) and roll it again as thin as you can. (I forgot to take a picture of this, but the rectangular dough skin will be very long and narrow after this step.) Now fold the length of the skin into thirds (Pic 4 and Pic 5), making it essentially square, then roll it to about an 8” square (Pic 6). (With all the folding and rolling, this will take a lot of work.) Once you’ve managed to roll the dough to about 8” or so, set it aside and repeat this process with the second dough ball.

After repeating the procedures from the previous paragragh, using the remaining dough ball, the second skin should be the same size as the first skin (about 8” square). Now set one skin on top of the other and roll them together. NO MORE FOLDING! All you want to do is roll the two dough skins together until you have about an 11x11-inch dough skin. At this point, place a round 10” pan on the dough and cut out your 10” dough skin with a pizza wheel. Once you position your skin on the dark, perforated 10” pan, you’re done with the dough. (Do not dock the dough.)

As I mentioned in the previous post, I’ve already made a pizza with the new dough formula, using these lamination procedures. (I’ll put up a couple pics shortly; it was a good-looking pizza.) Even though the crust was too soft and bready (mostly because I used way too much yeast), I can tell I’m heading in the right direction. With the next batch of dough, I’ll cut the yeast back to its previous level and let it bulk ferment overnight.

[AimlessRyan]

Here are a couple pics of the pizza I made last night, using my revised dough formula (expressed in Reply #56) and my revised laminating procedures (outlined in Reply #58). For this 10" pizza, the skin weighed about 9.2 oz. It was topped with 2.25 oz of sauce, 4.5 oz of cheap mozzarella, and 2 oz of pepperoni. The crust was definitely too thick (it probably should have been more like 8.5 oz), but the sauce and cheese seemed just about right for a Tommy's pizza. The pepperoni weight was probably about right, too, although it's hard to say for sure because I used a much different pepperoni than they use. I baked the pizza for about 14 minutes on the lowest rack of a 500-degree electric oven (with the stone moved to the top rack).

The dough was definitely way too young and had way too much yeast. The soft, bready crust didn't blister, nor did it taste fermented or have any real character. However, as you should be able to see in the second pic, the layers and laminates bear quite a resemblance to the Tommy's pics, so that's cool.

I think it's going to be almost impossible to make a great Tommy's clone without a sheeter. First of all, I'm almost positive that the dough needs to be stiffer than the dough I used last night. Second, I think the dough needs to be sheeted cold, and we all know how hard it is to roll out cold dough by hand. Regardless, I'll keep trying.