As one who has done a lot with trying to reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others, in nearly all cases without even having tried the pizzas, I have a question of a general nature: What approach and steps do you take to reverse engineer and clone someone else's pizza, such as ones sold by Tommy's Pizza? Since you appear to have access to Tommy's pizzas, do you at some point do a side-by-side comparison? And do you do any metrics (weight, size, amounts of dough, cheese, sauce, etc.)?
Peter,
Those are some tough questions, and it’s pretty new territory for me to attempt cloning anyone’s pizza. I haven’t eaten Tommy’s in a couple years, so I’m relying exclusively on memories here. Having said that, I realize this pizza may not be as close to Tommy’s as I think it is. Regardless, the last one I photographed looks a million times better than the ones in my previous pics, don’t ya think?
When I found this thread and decided to try to replicate Tommy’s, I based my first batch of dough on what I know about how certain amounts of certain ingredients will affect the final product. For example, I was pretty sure I needed a relatively stiff dough, with high gluten flour, because Tommy’s pizza is rigid and kind of dense. After making a couple pizzas with high gluten flour, though, I started to think a weaker flour might be better because my crusts were coming out hard and tough. (It turned out that I was right the first time; I was just wrong about some other things.)
I also looked through a lot of the cracker crust threads to gain some clues, even though I think Tommy’s is slightly different than a standard cracker crust. (The only pizza I’ve ever had that I consider a cracker crust is Pizza Hut thin. I’ve had Shakey’s a few times, but I’ve never thought of Shakey’s as a cracker crust. It seems doughier/chewier to me.)
Honestly, I don’t fully understand everything I’ve done to reach this point. Some of it came through knowledge I already possessed, while some of it came through suggestions on this thread and others. Additionally, there was at least one accident, when I intended to use KA flour but ended up using All Trumps because I’m just so programmed to scoop flour out of the 10-gallon container near my scale. I was on autopilot when I did it; I didn’t even realize I’d used the wrong flour until it was mixing.
One thing that helped me was my willingness to use extreme amounts of certain ingredients. For example, my first batch of dough contained 1 TBSP of oil (2.98%). Since I almost never use oil in my usual dough, and because I know
why I don’t use oil, a hunch told me I should double the oil for my second attempt at replicating Tommy’s dough, which is nothing like my usual dough. At about the same time that I started considering using a lot of oil, Briterian mentioned croissants and Papageorgio replied by suggesting the addition of some Crisco. So I doubled the oil to 2 TBSP (5.95%), which made the next batch of dough seem better but still not right.
Right about then, it occurred to me that Tommy's crust bears a minor resemblance to a Chicago deep dish crust. It’s the flaky thing, I think. So, knowing almost nothing about how to make a Chicago deep dish, I went over to the deep dish threads and analyzed some of the more popular dough formulas. One thing stuck out right away: Chicago deep dish dough has TONS of oil. So instead of increasing the oil for my next batch of dough by another 1 TBSP (or 2.98%), I went gonzo and decided to use 2.5 times as much oil as I’d used in my most recent batch of dough. So for the next batch I upped the oil to 5 TBSP (14.88%). With this drastic change, I knew this dough would end up either very right or very wrong.
It ended up a lot closer to what I was looking for. That was bingo moment #1.
Stuck in a stalemate for the next couple batches, I was thrilled that I’d come so far, but I knew I still had a long way to go. I was able to rule out certain methods, like using a perforated pan or screen, because there are no perforation or screen marks on the bottom of a Tommy’s pizza. I swayed back and forth on how I felt about some other methods and procedures, like retarding the dough and omitting the pan. But repetition and analysis ended up solving those problems for me.
To describe what I mean by analysis, I thought about what kind of procedures would make sense if I was running an operation like Tommy’s. I needed simple, efficient procedures that would be easy to teach a new guy. This isn’t New York City, where even the average consumer can probably whip up a pretty good pie, but Tommy’s is also not a large operation that requires a commissary or a strict assembly-line model. Tommy’s is not a small carryout and delivery unit, either; it’s a pizza-oriented restaurant with [pretty bad] table service, usually from older women who have worked there for 30 years.
Anyway, I solved some of the procedural problems by just putting myself in the place of the Tommy’s crew. But I still wasn’t getting what I wanted. So a couple days ago, I gave it another try. I thought I had most of the major issues figured out, but I was still getting a pale, hard crust, and the crust laminations were splitting apart on the edge during baking, probably because I was baking the pizzas almost immediately after rolling the laminated dough. Since I didn’t want the laminations to come apart on the edges, I decided I should let the dough rest for a little while after rolling it. But previous experiments had already shown me that this rest period must be done in a cooler because room temperature will turn it into an airy, non-laminated crust.
Also, in a busy pizzeria, it doesn’t make much sense to roll a skin every time someone orders a pizza. It makes more sense to plan ahead and roll out at least enough skins to get you through your next rush. That is, it makes sense to roll the dough well before the rush begins, like in the morning, when you have time for prep work. And that’s why I decided I should roll the dough, then refrigerate. (So far it seems to work, as long as the dough is used within several hours of sheeting.)
But I still wasn’t close to replicating Tommy’s. To solve the problem of pale crust, I tried adding some sugar. It worked. To solve the problem of tough crust, I think it’s important to avoid handling the dough too much, because handling the dough too much overdevelops the gluten in a way that I think would cause problems even with a sheeter. Also, the lower hydration of my most recent batch (37.5%) was another accident that seems to have worked out right (as long as you don’t handle the dough too much).
Collectively, this was bingo moment #2.
Regarding your side-by-side comparison question: Nope, I haven’t done it because I haven’t had Tommy’s in so long. I’d like to make a trip there soon, though, especially now that I’ve spent so much time trying to replicate their pizza. (I live 20 or 25 miles from the nearest Tommy’s, so it’s not exactly convenient.)
With the metrics question, I’m just going entirely by feel right now. 9 to 9.5 ounces of dough seems to be about right for a 10” pizza, but it’s so hard to get it right because you have to start out with excess dough, then cut it. Obviously a sheeter would make it much easier to get the thickness right.
My memory tells me Tommy’s uses a lot of cheese; provolone, according to their web site (which is also very common in Ohio). I think 5.5 oz is about right for the 10” pizza. (I’m inclined to think their topped pizzas use the same amount of cheese as their cheese pizzas.)
I think I put about 4 oz of sauce on last night’s pizza, but the sauce I used is nothing like what they use. I haven’t even started trying to figure out their sauce yet. I pretty much always use San Marzanos because it’s hard to make a bad pizza with good tomatoes. Of course, some pizzas just don’t translate well with San Marzanos, but they work pretty well with Tommy’s. The only thing I can really say about their sauce is that there is a presence of oregano in it. (I got my first can of 6 in 1 the other day, which I haven’t opened yet. Seeing that it’s so popular on these boards, I’m curious to see how I like it.)
The Bridgford pepperoni stick blends real nice with the flavor of San Marzanos , Grande mozzarella, and the flavorful crust I’ve created here. (I’ve tried Ezzo pepperoni before, and I prefer the Bridgford, but only from the 1 lb stick. The bagged stuff isn’t the same thing.) I think a Tommy’s pizza would have about 50 percent more pepperoni than what you see in my pic, too.
I’ll probably be back here in a week with news that I’m even closer, but for now I’m really happy with this latest experiment. I tend to be my own toughest critic, but I thoroughly enjoyed my dinner last night. This was a memorable pizza. I’d even say it was better than Tommy’s.
