Author Topic: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas  (Read 56261 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #240 on: September 04, 2012, 06:56:51 PM »
Sometimes what you thought you knew ends up being wrong. Like how I was so sure this dough needs a 49% hydration level. As it turns out, 54% hydration seems just about right. So forget what I was saying just the other day, at least for now, because I'm probably gonna stick with 54% for a while.

Last night's overnight bulk ferment was a little too much for this dough, though. I suspected that much when I first saw the dough this morning because it took up a lot more space than it did when I left it last night. Then I confirmed it when I ate tonight's pizza, as the crust had just a little bit of that overfermented toughness and density.

So that leaves me with a few options: 1) Decrease the yeast; 2) Bulk ferment in the fridge, probably with more yeast; or 3) Sleep less.

I'll use the first half of option #2 for tomorrow's pizza. Can't do #2 entirely because I made the dough yesterday, but I probably will stick with option #2 when I make the next batch of dough tomorrow night.

I gotta simplify my topping selection, too. No more jalapenos. I like to taste my pizza, and that was hard to do today.

9+2 minute bake time seemed a little too short with this one, perhaps because I used so much more sauce today than I used yesterday. Or maybe it's because I let the stone heat up on the bottom rack instead of up near the broiler.

I may have sounded very critical throughout this post, but today's pizza was awesome. I'm definitely closer to replicating Tommy's than I was yesterday.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 07:03:39 PM by AimlessRyan »


Offline Jackitup

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #241 on: September 04, 2012, 07:41:03 PM »
Sometimes what you thought you knew ends up being wrong. Like how I was so sure this dough needs a 49% hydration level. As it turns out, 54% hydration seems just about right. So forget what I was saying just the other day, at least for now, because I'm probably gonna stick with 54% for a while.

Last night's overnight bulk ferment was a little too much for this dough, though. I suspected that much when I first saw the dough this morning because it took up a lot more space than it did when I left it last night. Then I confirmed it when I ate tonight's pizza, as the crust had just a little bit of that overfermented toughness and density.

So that leaves me with a few options: 1) Decrease the yeast; 2) Bulk ferment in the fridge, probably with more yeast; or 3) Sleep less.


If the heat factor was too much and covered up the flavor of your pie go with pickled japs. Those look fresh and can run literally from NO heat to too much for some. I do the pickled ones and actually the pickling adds to the pie imo. Also, my favorite way to handle a jar of pickled japs is this. Drain out some of the juice and add sugar to sweeten to taste. E=When you get there add back any juice if needed and shake it up once or twice a day for a week or so "if you can make it that long" and have at them. Simple and SIMPLY AWESOME!!!


Jon
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 07:43:00 PM by Jackitup »
Save A Cow, Eat A Vegan....Totally Organic And Hormone Free!!

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #242 on: September 04, 2012, 08:51:23 PM »
I threw a little bit of feta on a small section of this pizza, too; some of which is visible in the 4th pic. I can't say the feta added any kind of spectacular flavor profile, but it certainly didn't take away from the pizza, either.

Jon, I used to be a fan of pickled jalapenos and banana peppers, but nowadays I only use fresh jalapenos at home. They're awesome on burgers.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #243 on: September 05, 2012, 08:40:50 AM »
Ryan, have you seen this...

Well, I couldn't really have missed it, now, could I? Are you gonna explain it?

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #244 on: September 05, 2012, 09:04:23 AM »
Oh, yeah sorry...guess this would help.    Dans revelation...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg35521.html#msg35521
Also, on that same thread member fazzari an Dan talking...http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg50375.html#msg50375
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #245 on: September 05, 2012, 11:01:36 AM »
Considering yesterday's minor overfermentation issues, which resulted from allowing the dough to bulk ferment at room temperature overnight, I kept today's dough (same batch) in the fridge all night, after already having it in the fridge for the previous 24 hours since mixing. (So that's about a 33-hour cold bulk ferment.) I took the dough out of the fridge a little before 9:00 this morning and immediately rolled it because I figured rolling cold dough could make a pretty big difference, both in how it feels while rolling and in how it bakes.

The dough definitely felt different today, due to this procedural change. It felt much stiffer than yesterday's dough, of course, but not stiff. Still, it felt stiff enough that I will most likely try 56% hydration for an upcoming batch of this dough (not for tonight's batch, though). My immediate thoughts are that I like this method better than the overnight room-temperature bulk ferment. But I'll hold off making a final judgment until after I make the pizza tonight.

With the lamination/rolling procedures I use for this dough, it's almost impossible to use too much bench flour between the laminates of these pizzas. If you do use too much, the excess flour ends up spurting out the edges of the dough as you roll it into a skin.

Today, instead of spraying the skin with nonstick spray and covering it with plastic wrap before putting the skin in the fridge, I just applied sauce to the skin to keep it from drying up. That was at 9:20, and I used 5 oz of sauce.

Today's 11" dough skin weight is 10.5 oz (TF=0.110 oz of dough per square inch), as shown in pic 1. I'm taking a little chance with this. I've gotten into a pattern of preferring my skins to be about 10 oz, so this might end up a little too thick for my tastes, even though it's probably not quite as thick as an actual Tommy's pizza.

(I forgot to mention this in the post that listed the formula for this batch of dough, but this batch of dough was made of 23 oz of fresh dough and 7 oz of scraps from the previous batch.)

My kitchen lighting problem (for pics) has been fixed, at least in my prep area. If you didn't already notice, check out how much of a difference it made between the pictures of Monday's pizza (pic 2) and yesterday's pizza (pic 3).

Here's one thought that goes through my mind every day while eating and analyzing these pizzas: "Is this characteristic representative of present-day Tommy's, or is it representative of Tommy's from 25 years ago?" And it confuses me every day, because there's such a big difference between the pizzas of now and then. Consequently, my clone attempts tend to have characteristics of both Tommy's of today and Tommy's of the past.

Today's Tommy's pizza is kinda pale and has blisters on the bottom, while Tommy's of the past has a smooth bottom that browns more (due to the bubbles in the laminates, as in pic 4) and breaks up, leaving a hundred small flat crust crumbs in your box or on your tray. I think Tommy's of the past was also a little thinner than Tommy's of today, which is probably one of the main reasons why I like to make them a little thinner than you'd get if you went to Tommy's today.

And in case anyone is wondering: Tommy's of the past is much better than the Tommy's I've had in my two visits since this thread began two years ago.

I'm thinking about taking a trip to the OSU Tommy's sometime, rather than the one in Upper Arlington, to see if they serve me a noticeably different pizza than the UA Tommy's. It kinda makes sense that they might, because no small chain with only four units is gonna have the same kind of quality control that a large chain has. Consequently, the pizza at the different stores has probably evolved independently of each other for long enough that they might be making considerably different products.

So if anyone would like to meet me at the OSU Tommy's sometime, let me know.

One more thing: Man, this pizza is complicated. The formula, the ingredients, the dough management, the prep procedures, and the baking methods; all of it. There are so many different variables to consider when making this kind of pizza, each of which can change everything.

Most people probably wouldn't consider this kind of pizza remotely as good as a New York pizza or a Chicago deep dish, but it's infinitely easier to figure out how to make great NY pizza and great deep dish. Not just one or the other, but both. Possibly in the same week.

Offline weemis

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #246 on: September 05, 2012, 11:07:26 AM »
So if anyone would like to meet me at the OSU Tommy's sometime, let me know.

i'm in, sir! lemme know!
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #247 on: September 05, 2012, 05:41:00 PM »
Nick, if I get the urge to go to Tommy's, I'll let you know. Or if you get the urge, you can let me know. How's that sound? I'm probably gonna head up to Carfagna's (or Pittsburgh) sometime next week, to get cheese and other supplies. Regardless of where I get my supplies, that would likely be a good time for me to go to Tommy's, since I don't get around much.

Here are some pics of today's pizza.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #248 on: September 06, 2012, 10:39:11 AM »
Some notes about yesterday's pizza (pictured above):

  • After rolling the skin, I refrigerated it for 7 hours. Since I've been refrigerating most of the skins for about this long, I'm surprised the crusts haven't blistered more. I think it may be a sign that I should consider using more yeast.
  • I began baking the pizza only five minutes after I took it out of the fridge. Probably not the best idea.
  • Baked for 10 minutes on pan, then 3 directly on the stone. This long bake time was unusual, as I've been baking other pizzas for about 9+2 with the current oven setup. The extra bake time probably resulted from: 1) Putting such a cold pizza in the oven; and 2) Perhaps the stone not being as hot as it was the other day, since I didn't preheat it under the broiler. (I could really use an IR thermometer.)
  • Crust was dense and tough. I don't know if y'all can tell this from the first pic in the previous post, but that spot on the right side of the pizza where the crust splits is a sign of a dense, tough crust. So if you see that, and I tell you the pizza was awesome, you should be able to figure out that I'm lying. Fortunately for you, that won't happen.
  • This one wasn’t nearly as good as I'd hoped, mostly because of the tough crust, but I am still on the right track.
  • Even with a thicker crust than usual, this one didn’t turn out bready, which always seems to have happened when I’ve gone this thick before. So that's good.
  • Even though I rolled the skin thicker than normal, it was still thinner than present-day Tommy’s pizza, and it also turned out thinner than most of the other pizzas I've made lately. (Like I said, this one was dense.)
  • The outer bottom of the crust still doesn't take the shape of the pan. This might indicate that I should increase the hydration even further. (Note: I consider this a characteristic of modern Tommy's pizza, not classic Tommy's pizza.)

I'm getting into a bad habit of making too many big changes from one pizza to the next. For example, I bulk fermented this one cold, rolled it without giving it a two-hour warm-up period, and started baking when it was still cold, which is all quite a bit different than what I had been doing.

I won't be making one of these either today or tomorrow. (NY style pizza today; outta town tomorrow.) In fact, I'm thinking about taking a break from making pizza after I run out of cheese in several days. Once the cheese is gone, I will have gone through 14 or 15 lbs of cheese since August 7.

Can anyone try to help me think of reasons why a crust like this may end up dense and tough? The first things that come to mind are: 1) Gluten overdevelopment; 2) Overfermented dough; 3) Underfermented dough; 4) Excessive rolling. Any other ideas?

Offline chrisgraff

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #249 on: September 06, 2012, 01:54:05 PM »

Can anyone try to help me think of reasons why a crust like this may end up dense and tough? The first things that come to mind are: 1) Gluten overdevelopment; 2) Overfermented dough; 3) Underfermented dough; 4) Excessive rolling. Any other ideas?

52% hydration is your limit with heavy bench flour?  At some point, those two variables are going to come into play.


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #250 on: September 06, 2012, 02:04:46 PM »
52% hydration is your limit with heavy bench flour?

That's a tough call right now, but I'm glad you brought it up because I probably wouldn't have thought of it. I'll definitely take that into consideration as I continue making doughs above 52% hydration.

Offline weemis

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #251 on: September 06, 2012, 02:16:17 PM »
Nick, if I get the urge to go to Tommy's, I'll let you know. Or if you get the urge, you can let me know. How's that sound? I'm probably gonna head up to Carfagna's (or Pittsburgh) sometime next week, to get cheese and other supplies. Regardless of where I get my supplies, that would likely be a good time for me to go to Tommy's, since I don't get around much.

i'm off work next friday. you wanna do lunch?
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #252 on: September 06, 2012, 04:31:59 PM »
Earlier today I was thinking about things that might help explain why Tommy's pizza is so much different today than it was 25 years ago.

The one clear difference that anyone can see just by walking through the door is that Tommy's uses conveyor ovens today, as opposed to the deck ovens they used 25 years ago. How much does that change the product? I don't know, but I do know something like that could potentially start a chain reaction that ends up changing a product considerably over the span of 25 years.

Now that I've mentioned the one thing I know has changed, there's another very important question to answer: Is Tommy's pizza actually different today than it was 25 years ago?

Well, I think it's different, and chrisgraff thinks it's different in the same ways I think it's different. I couldn't tell from thezaman's comment if he agrees. (I just asked my mom about this stuff, and she's on the same page as Chris and I.) So based on what I know from our little sample group, I'm gonna have to assume Chris and I are correct in saying today's Tommy's is way different than Tommy's from 25 years ago.

So here's a short list of factors that may have caused Tommy's pizza to change so much over time:

1) All restaurants evolve over time. I know that if I opened a pizzeria today, the pizza would evolve over 25 or 50 years, just like the pizza I make at home is not the same as the pizza I made 5 or 10 years ago. If I owned a pizzeria, I would spend at least part of almost every day trying to improve the pizza, just as I have for the past 15 years at home. (I can't avoid it; that's just how I operate.) So yeah, it's gonna change over time, even without making a conscious effort to create a noticeably different pizza.

2) Technology. The oven example definitely fits into this list item. Once upon a time, a new technology (conveyor ovens) came along. These ovens made it easier to bake pizzas, and at a faster rate to boot, but at the expense of quality. Tommy's chose to embrace the new, easier technology over the older technology. (There was probably a big-time snowball effect just from this single decision.)

Also, there may have been other technological advances that led to changes, such as different kinds of refrigeration units. Or maybe refrigeration became more affordable. If so, that could account for a drastic change in dough management.

3) The availability of information. Maybe refrigeration was already affordable, but the owners of Tommy's learned how refrigeration could make dough management a lot easier. Maybe they learned that refrigeration could lead to higher production because refrigeration enables you to proactively sheet most of the day's dough ahead of time, instead of reactively waiting to sheet the dough only after the order has been placed.

So maybe 25 years ago Tommy's kept the dough at room temperature all day and wouldn't sheet a skin until a pizza was ordered. If so, that would have required extra labor during busy times of the day, and it also would mean longer wait times for pizzas, as well as an inability to meet high demand at busy times. Because if you wait until every order is taken to sheet the dough for that order, you have to pay an extra person to sheet the dough. And then someone has to make the pizza, instead of just pulling out a sauce-and-cheesed skin and throwing it on the conveyor belt. So in addition to extra labor, the room-temperature dough management system also requires a few extra minutes of prep time for every pizza that is ordered. Very inefficient.

Which makes me think they probably used to roll only one skin at a time, rather than producing a long sheet of dough from the sheeter, creating several dough skins at a time. (I don't know how they do it; I just know there's more than one way of sheeting dough.)

In Reply #81, jweaver64 said something about the original pic of Tommy's looking like a “toasted lasagna noodle.” Although I like this observation, I don't feel like talking about it right now because I think it's a characteristic of present-day Tommy's. (Just wanted to say something about it, though, for future reference.)

To me it looks like the ownership of Tommy's has made many operational decisions that value ease, efficiency, and cost over quality. I mean, look at their pizza box and their menu. When's the last time you saw a pizza box like that? If you don't think too hard about it, you'd probably assume they still use those boxes for nostalgic effect. But my guess is that they use them because that box is cheap. Every direction you look, it appears that Tommy's management bases most of their decisions on cost, not quality. Which is a shame because they used to make some good stuff, and now they don't.

I guess that's what I'm here for.

So I'm gonna try to use this insight to guide me as I continue trying to clone Tommy's pizza. For example, in the future I'll probably lean toward using the dough very soon after I roll it because it makes sense that Tommy's may have done that 25 years ago. I'll also consider trying to come up with a dough formula that will work for dough that's made in the morning and used throughout the day. Or maybe dough that's good for 6 hours or so, that you could make both before lunch and before dinner.

Because I want to make a pizza that's crispy, with a crust that breaks up into hundreds of little paper-thin flakes inside the box, without blistering.

Pizza hiatus may have to wait a while.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #253 on: September 06, 2012, 04:46:40 PM »
The products themselves change over time. If I could find the mozz we used 40 yrs. ago...the fat lady could go ahead an start sing'in her song.... ;)
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Offline chrisgraff

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #254 on: September 06, 2012, 05:31:52 PM »
Earlier today I was thinking about things that might help explain why Tommy's pizza is so much different today than it was 25 years ago.

Because I want to make a pizza that's crispy, with a crust that breaks up into hundreds of little paper-thin flakes inside the box, without blistering.

I don't remember the flakes specifically (from back in the day); although that would seem to suggest shortening.

If Tommy's was sheeting skins to order, it would stand to reason that the dough was kept relatively cold, for obvious reasons.  Some form of fat in the dough would have helped sheet cold dough, no?

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #255 on: September 06, 2012, 05:36:17 PM »
I don't remember the flakes specifically (from back in the day); although that would seem to suggest shortening.

If Tommy's was sheeting skins to order, it would stand to reason that the dough was kept relatively cold, for obvious reasons.  Some form of fat in the dough would have helped sheet cold dough, no?
I'm say'in!  ;D
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #256 on: September 08, 2012, 07:35:50 PM »
I don't remember the flakes specifically (from back in the day); although that would seem to suggest shortening.

You don't remember being left with a plateful of flakes like these?

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #257 on: September 08, 2012, 08:32:18 PM »
I put my thoughts from Reply #252 into action today, beginning with same-day dough that I made at about noon. Due to the anticipated change in dough management, I increased the yeast from 0.60% to 1%. I also increased the hydration again, as well as the salt. Here's the formula I used:

100% KAAP flour
56% Water
1% ADY
2% Salt

I made 22 oz of dough and added 7 oz of scraps while the dough was mixing. Divided the dough into two 14.5 oz pieces, and put one into the fridge for tomorrow. I then divided the other piece of dough into two 7.25 oz dough pieces and allowed them to rise for over 4 hours.

After this room-temperature ferment, I rolled one piece of the dough as large and thin as I could make it, which was about 18" x 18" square(ish). I applied heavy bench flour to the dough and folded it in half, then applied more bench flour and folded it the other way. Repeated with the other piece of dough, then rolled the two pieces of dough together. Trimmed the dough skin to about 10.4 oz for an 11" pizza (TF=0.110 oz of dough per square inch).

I topped the skin then baked right away for 10 minutes on the pan, plus another 2 minutes directly on the stone.

This was not a perfect clone of Tommy's from 25 years ago, but it was really close. It was a little tough, but not as tough as some recent pizzas. Also, it wasn't tough at all in some places. So I don't think the toughness has anything to do with the higher hydration figures I've been using for recent pizzas (especially considering this is the highest hydration figure I've used).

Offline Don K

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #258 on: September 08, 2012, 08:42:05 PM »
That looks fantastic Ryan! Golden flaky goodness.
The member formerly known as Colonel_Klink

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #259 on: September 09, 2012, 10:21:55 AM »
Thanks Don. The pizza was really good; probably better than I made it sound. I think yesterday's pizza was probably the closest I've come to cloning the old Tommy's.

I'm glad I saw briterian's original Tommy's post a couple years ago and made it my obsession because it has helped me learn so much about this kind of pizza, as well as pizza in general. I love looking through the early pages of this thread and seeing the pictures that document the obvious improvement I made in a short time.

Some random things I've been thinking about:

1) Nick, I'd say a Friday lunch at the OSU Tommy's is probably fine. Set a time and I'll be there.

2) The crust toughness I've had with some recent pizzas is probably a result of rolling the dough too much. (It's probably something I've dealt with for as long as I've been trying to clone Tommy's, but I probably never noticed it much until now because I've never been this close to nailing it.) I suspect the pizzas would be much less tough if I had a sheeter. The toughness may actually be diminishing as I continue to increase the hydration, presumably because it takes fewer passes of the rolling pin to sheet the softer dough. Fortunately, higher hydration also seems to be a major factor influencing the crust characteristics I desire.

3) Bob, what exactly did you intend for me to get out of the posts you linked to? Was it DNA Dan's feelings about excessive rolling?

4) I was very surprised to have a few blisters on yesterday's pizza because I consider blisters a sign of long refrigeration after rolling the skin. As you may know, I baked yesterday's pizza almost immediately after rolling the skin.

5) There were no major bubbles with yesterday's pizza. I think I may have popped one near the end of the bake. I'd say this is a good thing. (Normally I have to pop maybe 5-10 bubbles with each pizza.)

6) Interestingly, my Tommy's dough formula is becoming very similar to my NY style dough formula.


If Tommy's was sheeting skins to order, it would stand to reason that the dough was kept relatively cold, for obvious reasons.  Some form of fat in the dough would have helped sheet cold dough, no?

Although I could come up with some good reasons to sheet the dough cold, I'm not sure I'm seeing the obvious reasons you mention. When I worked at Pizza Hut, the thin dough was bulk fermented at room temperature all day and sheeted to order, which means such a system can be done on the largest of scales. I'm not seeing your fat connection, either.

Maybe I'm just looking in a different direction than you. Please elaborate on what you meant in the quoted text.


 

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