Author Topic: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas  (Read 77752 times)

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #325 on: September 17, 2013, 12:15:33 PM »
This post is partly for me, so I can see my old best-yet formula and my new best-yet formula side-by-side. If I haven't been clear, I did not make any Tommy's clones between fall 2012 and July 2013. (In fact, I didn't make any pizza or eat any pizza between January and June of this year.) According to Reply #257 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg209159.html#msg209159), it looks like my best-yet dough formula as of late 2012 was:

100% KAAP flour
56% Water
1% ADY
2% Salt

That's a very soft dough for this style; considerably softer than my current best-yet dough. Probably way too soft. I have no idea how that became my best-yet formula. It's just not good, in so many different ways. Compare it to my current best-yet formula:

100% Pillsbury AP flour
43% Water
1.5% ADY (1.15% IDY)
1.5% Salt
5% Shortening
1% Sugar

Right about the time AimlessRyan disappeared from the boards, I stopped using KAAP and started using other flours; mainly Pillsbury AP. After using KAAP almost exclusively up to this point (for my Tommy's clones), switching to Pillsbury AP taught me real quick that I don't like KAAP. Also, one thing I quickly learned after making the switch, at least with deep dish dough, is that Pillsbury flour needs a lot more water than KAAP. With Pillsbury AP, if I wanted to make deep dish dough that handled similarly to dough made of KAAP, I needed to use 4% or 5% more water. Which means if I tried to make Tommy's dough out of KAAP today, I'd decrease the hydration figure to 40% (and I'd probably end up using more like 38-39% hydration).

If I was to make a batch of dough using the top formula, but with Pillsbury or Gold Medal AP flour, I would probably need to increase the hydration to 60% if I wanted it to handle the same as the KAAP dough. If you intend to try making more of these pizzas, Tim, I think you should pick up a bag of Pillsbury or Gold Medal AP next time you go shopping. It makes a big difference, especially if you're really trying to replicate my results. I might make another one or two of these pizzas this week so I can take pictures of every step of my workflow, as well as to compare the look of my dough to yours.

Man, I have a ton to say in response to all your new posts (and pictures), but it might take a while. Since I didn't already say it, I want to say your pizzas look awesome. I'm just so flattered that someone finally tried to do this (and took tons of pictures to share, and whatnot). (Actually, someone else has tried it, after finding my blog, but I haven't been able to see his results or stay in regular contact with him.)
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.


Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #326 on: September 17, 2013, 02:36:00 PM »
Tim,

You did a great job laying everything out. Our members will appreciate that.

And great looking pizzas too.

Peter

Thanks Peter.  I hope someone benefits from my post.  I always find it helpful and enjoyable when members post pictures.

- Tim

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #327 on: September 17, 2013, 02:42:49 PM »

Man, I have a ton to say in response to all your new posts (and pictures), but it might take a while. Since I didn't already say it, I want to say your pizzas look awesome. I'm just so flattered that someone finally tried to do this (and took tons of pictures to share, and whatnot). (Actually, someone else has tried it, after finding my blog, but I haven't been able to see his results or stay in regular contact with him.)

Ryan,

Thanks for telling me my pizzas look awesome.  I'm glad I could contribute a little.  It does seem that AP flour often works well for thin crust pizzas.  I'll have to get some Pillsbury and try the recipe out again using that.  I'm looking forward to seeing more of your posts on this topic.  Keep up the good work!  :D

--Tim

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #328 on: September 25, 2013, 02:02:41 PM »
Hey Tim,

Sorry I haven't posted any of the stuff I said I was going to post. I've been through some serious BS lately (like being forced to spend five days in the OSU nut house), and right now is the first time I've even been able to look at the boards since almost immediately after my most recent post. This whole experience really kinda sucked the life out of me, at least temporarily, so it might be a while before I have enough focus and energy to compose the posts I said I'd be sharing.

In case you're wondering: No, I'm not crazy, which is one big reason why I don't mind revealing that I was stuck in a looney bin for five days.

The good news is that I may be getting my own place to live soon, in Grandview Heights (a couple miles from downtown Columbus). Right now I live in the middle of nowhere, in far southwest Franklin County, where I spend almost all my time in isolation. Due to multiple sclerosis, I'm pretty much unable to work. So now that I'll soon have a lot of very close neighbors and a lot of time to pass, I intend to quickly make friends with the neighbors, then invite them and their friends over for pizza regularly (even though I'll eat very little of the pizza because I'm easing back into a very strict MS diet).

Man, I just love making pizza for people and learning more about pizza every time I make one. You can't just abandon your greatest passions, even when you can't really partake of them how you once did. Without pizza in my life, I'm just about dead inside. But with too much pizza in my body, I get kinda dead inside in a totally different way. But y'know what? I learn from it, and I'm gonna make this work out beautifully.

I'll try to follow up on my promise ASAP, but it might take some time.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #329 on: September 25, 2013, 02:16:54 PM »
Hey, I just noticed that I have 1,012 posts (rather than 155 or so), which seems to indicate that AimlessRyan and Aimless Ryan are now one in the same. (I wonder how they figured out that I'm actually AimlessRyan!) I'm almost 100% sure Peter had a lot to do with making this happen. So thank you very much, Peter (as well as anyone else who bears any co-responsibility for making it happen). I appreciate it a whole bunch.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #330 on: September 25, 2013, 11:39:46 PM »
Hey Tim,

Sorry I haven't posted any of the stuff I said I was going to post. I've been through some serious BS lately (like being forced to spend five days in the OSU nut house), and right now is the first time I've even been able to look at the boards since almost immediately after my most recent post. This whole experience really kinda sucked the life out of me, at least temporarily, so it might be a while before I have enough focus and energy to compose the posts I said I'd be sharing.

In case you're wondering: No, I'm not crazy, which is one big reason why I don't mind revealing that I was stuck in a looney bin for five days.

The good news is that I may be getting my own place to live soon, in Grandview Heights (a couple miles from downtown Columbus). Right now I live in the middle of nowhere, in far southwest Franklin County, where I spend almost all my time in isolation. Due to multiple sclerosis, I'm pretty much unable to work. So now that I'll soon have a lot of very close neighbors and a lot of time to pass, I intend to quickly make friends with the neighbors, then invite them and their friends over for pizza regularly (even though I'll eat very little of the pizza because I'm easing back into a very strict MS diet).

Man, I just love making pizza for people and learning more about pizza every time I make one. You can't just abandon your greatest passions, even when you can't really partake of them how you once did. Without pizza in my life, I'm just about dead inside. But with too much pizza in my body, I get kinda dead inside in a totally different way. But y'know what? I learn from it, and I'm gonna make this work out beautifully.

I'll try to follow up on my promise ASAP, but it might take some time.

Hi Ryan.  So sorry to hear of your health problems.  Don't worry about posting (or baking) until you feel like it. Health always comes first.  :). I think it's a great idea to get to know your neighbors and invite them and their friends over for pizza.  There's something universal about pizza that brings people together.  Your prospective neighbors don't know it yet, but they are in for a treat!  Even if you don't eat a lot of it, I'm sure you will get a lot of enjoyment from fixing it for others and seeing how much they enjoy it.

Tim

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #331 on: September 28, 2013, 01:47:39 PM »
I've been rereading this entire thread, and I'm at Reply #200 right now (page 11), which is from just over a year ago (which was shortly before I stopped making this kind of pizza for the better part of a year).

Man, I was so wrong up until recently, when I started making these pizzas again, using a much different dough formula and many procedural changes, including at least a few drastic changes. I like this thread because it shows the evolution of how I got to where I am today with this style of pizza, but I also don't like this thread because I now see it as misleading and confusing. Tim, I can only imagine how much brain power you had to put into deciphering and interpreting the many pages of conflicting information I've provided throughout this thread. Consequently, I'm about ready to start drafting a new post to reflect, in detail, how I've been making this style of pizza lately.

You deserve better than the unstable foundation I've built for you. And once I build the new foundation, you'll be very happy (if you attempt to make this style of pizza again).
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 01:00:25 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #332 on: September 29, 2013, 04:44:53 PM »
Since Iíve recently realized much of what Iíve shared throughout this thread is pretty confusing, and since most of the information has become essentially useless (due to my recent giant steps forward with this style of pizza), I've decided to create a thorough list of instructions for how Iíve made my Tommyís style pizzas lately (which have been phenomenal). I realize my posts throughout this thread tend to be very wordy, difficult to follow, and even contradictory, so Iíve tried very hard to simplify everything here, but without sacrificing important information.

Considering Tim is the only person who has tried to replicate my results, Iíve kind of personalized some of the details below to suit what seems to be his inclinations. For example, I calculated a recipe that makes just enough dough for two 15Ē pizzas. My recipe and prep instructions already account for scrap dough, so you wonít have to worry about figuring that stuff out on your own. If anyone would like me to share a recipe scaled for just enough dough to make any number of other sized pizzas (or anything that would need to be individualized using my spreadsheet), just let me know. Iíll happily share the information. In fact, Iíd probably also be willing to share the spreadsheet, although Iím a little hesitant because it seems most people find the spreadsheet confusing (even though it's freaking awesome).

Attention: Rolling this dough takes a lot of hard work. Iím not gonna try to make you think this is remotely easy, because it's not. I think I said recently that it takes about 15 times as much work as it would take with a sheeter. Well, I want to change that to 30 times as much time/work, because it takes me at least half an hour to roll and trim each 15" Tommy's style skin, which is something I think would take about a minute with a sheeter.

So hereís my current best-yet dough formula:

100% Pillsbury AP flour
43% Water
1.5% ADY
1.5% Salt
5% Shortening
1% Sugar

To make 44 oz (1,247 g) of dough, which is enough for two 15Ē pizzas (and will leave you with about 12 oz of scrap dough), use:

28.95 oz Pillsbury AP flour
12.45 oz Water
0.43 oz ADY (4.34 tsp)
0.43 oz Salt (2.52 tsp)
1.45 oz Shortening
0.29 oz Sugar (2.37 tsp)

or

821 g Pillsbury AP flour
353 g Water
12 g ADY
12 g Salt
41 g Shortening
8 g Sugar

Also, you'll be shooting for a thickness (or TF) of 0.09 oz of dough per square inch. For a 15" pizza, that means your target skin weight will be 15.9 oz (451 g).

DO NOT ADD EXTRA WATER TO THE DOUGH. For the laminated texture of the crust to turn out right, this dough needs to be very stiff; stiffer than the dough appears in Timís pics. The dough will seem noticeably softer after it ferments, but it will still be very stiff. As long as itís not hard on your mixer, give your mixer plenty of time to mix the dough. That is, mix it until all the flour is picked up. With the common (tilting head) model of KitchenAid mixer, I donít know what to expect (because I have a bigger model with a bowl lift and spiral dough hook). If this dough is too hard on your mixer, then I guess you need to get creative and find some kind of mixing trick. (If a dry climate really does make a noticeable difference in the stiffness of the dough, the formula should be adjusted to account for that, rather than adding spoonfuls of extra water to the dough while it's mixing. I feel pretty confident speculating that a dry climate should not necessitate any greater than a 2% hydration increase.)

Iím still working on figuring out the best way to do a lot of the following stuff because I know thereís a better way than how Iíve been doing it. But hereís how Iíve been doing it lately.


Part I: Making the Dough
  • Measure the ADY and put it in a custard dish.
  • Measure the water (100-110 degrees), then pour about 1.5 oz of it into the custard dish.
  • Add a pinch of sugar to the yeast water and stir well.
  • Measure the flour and add it to your mixing bowl.
  • Measure the salt and add it to the mixing bowl.
  • Measure the sugar and add it to the mixing bowl.
  • Stir the flour/salt/sugar mixture.
  • Measure the shortening and add it to the mixing bowl.
  • When the yeast water is foamy, add it to the mixing bowl.
  • Add the rest of the water to the mixing bowl.
  • Mix with a dough hook until there is no loose flour.
  • Set aside mixer bowl and cover it.
  • Let the dough bulk ferment for about four hours at room temperature.
  • Punch down the dough.
  • Cover and refrigerate the dough overnight.

Part II: Managing and Prepping the Dough
  • Remove the dough from fridge several hours before you intend to make pizza.
  • If youíll be making 15Ē pizzas, divide the dough into four relatively square 11 oz pieces. (Do not knead, agitate, or round the dough.)
  • For each pizza you intend to make today, set aside two pieces of dough and cover. (If you only intend to make one pizza, bag and refrigerate all but two of the dough pieces.)
  • Allow the covered dough to warm up for an hour or two.
To avoid confusion, Iíll word the remainder of the instructions as if youíll only be making one pizza. If you plan to make more than one pizza, I think you know how to translate.
  • Use your fist to flatten one of the two dough pieces.
  • Dredge this piece of dough in flour, covering the entire surface of the dough.
  • Begin rolling the piece of dough, trying to keep it relatively square. (I find that itís easiest to do this by orienting the dough at a 45-degree angle, like a baseball diamond, so itís easy to roll the dough equally in every direction.)
  • When the dough begins sticking to the counter enough that it becomes difficult to roll, add a small amount of bench flour to the top of the dough and spread it around with your hand until the dough does not feel sticky.
  • Flip the dough over and repeat the previous step.
  • Continue rolling, as before.
  • Repeat steps 4-6 until the dough is as thin as you can roll it. Itís very important that you roll it until it is as thin as you can possibly roll it. Try to use only as much bench flour as it takes to keep the dough from being sticky. The dough should end up in the neighborhood of 20Ē x 20Ē, if not a little larger.
  • When you can no longer roll the dough any thinner, dust each side lightly with flour, spreading the flour around with your hand until the dough does not feel sticky.
  • Fold the dough in half (so itís a rectangle), then fold it in half the other way, so itís a square with four layers. (This step is just to make the dough easier to pick up and move out of the way so you can roll the second dough piece.)
  • Set the folded piece of dough somewhere out of the way and repeat steps 1-8 with the other piece of dough.
Hereís how to turn the dough into a skin.
  • Unfold the dough sheet that you had set aside and place it atop the sheet that's already on your work surface, with both dough sheets oriented the same way.
  • Fold the stacked sheets of dough in half so the dough takes the form of a rectangle with four layers (like a magazine with a front cover, two pages, and a back cover).
  • Fold the dough again, lengthwise, so itís relatively square, with eight layers.
  • Use a fist to press the dough as much as possible (sorta like a dough press).
  • Start rolling the dough. (Again, orient it like a baseball diamond.)
  • As soon as you feel like the eight layers of dough have become what seems to be a single layer of dough, dust each side lightly with flour.
  • Continue rolling, trying to keep a relatively square shape. You may want to focus largely on rolling the outer perimeter of the dough. Doing this helps me end up with skins of very consistent thickness. You really want to work the corners, too, redistributing some of the corner dough toward the sides. (I know that's hard to understand. I'll try to share a picture eventually, depicting this step.)
  • Try to use as little bench flour as possible. You want the dough to stick to the counter a little bit, but not too much. Whenever the dough becomes sticky enough to cause wrinkling, dust each side of the dough just enough to keep it from feeling sticky, then continue rolling.
  • Continue doing this until the dough is larger than a 16Ē screen or pan. (ď16Ē is not a typo. Iíll explain later.)
  • When the dough is larger than the pan or screen, use a pizza wheel to trim a 16Ē skin. (Use the pan or screen as a template.)
  • Weigh the skin. At this point, the skin will probably be at least a couple ounces heavier than your target skin weight of 15.9 oz (451 g).
  • Place the skin back on your work surface. (When you do this, the skinís diameter will probably be at least a few inches smaller than it was when you trimmed it. This is normal, so donít freak out about it.)
  • Continue rolling the skin. You probably wonít need to use much (or any) bench flour from this point on.
  • When the skin gets larger than 16Ē again, use the pan or screen again as a template to trim the dough.
  • Weigh the dough. Again, your target weight is 15.9 oz (451 g).
  • If your skin is still too heavy, continue rolling, trimming, and weighing until your skin is an acceptable weight.
  • If your skin is within about half an ounce of your target weight, all is good, so put the skin back on your work surface so you can add the final few touches. (The skin probably will have shrunk again, so youíll need to roll it a little more.)
  • Without using any bench flour, roll the skin to about 16Ē again. It should be kinda stuck to the counter.
  • Leave the slightly oversized 16" skin alone for 5 or 10 minutes, stuck to the counter so it can relax. By doing this, it should only shrink about an inch once you remove it again from your work surface.
  • Optional: During the 5 or 10-minute dough rest, dock the skin. (Do not dock the hell out of it. All you want is two side-by-side passes; one just left of center and one just right of center.)
  • After the rest period, put your skin on a pan or screen and cover with plastic wrap.
  • Immediately put the pan and skin in the fridge, and leave it there for 2-4 hours.

Part III: Assembing and Baking the Pizza
  • Preheat your oven at 500 with a stone in its normal position for an hour or so before you intend to bake.
  • About 15 minutes before you intend to bake, remove your skin from the fridge.
  • Remove plastic wrap from your skin. (You may want to flip the skin upside down on your work surface for about 10 minutes, exposing the bottom side to air, to make it a little drier and easier to peel the topped skin onto your stone.)
  • Lightly dust a peel with flour.
  • Place your skin on the peel (with docking marks on the top of the skin if you docked the dough).
  • Add the amount of sauce that you consider appropriate, distributing the sauce all the way to the edge of the skin. My spreadsheet says to use 9.39 oz (266 g) of sauce, but Iím not sure if thatís very accurate. Itís OK to apply sauce by feel.
  • Apply 10.89 oz (309 g) of provolone or mozzarella.
  • If youíll be making a pepperoni pizza, try 5.68 oz (161 g) of pep. (Ezzo GiAntonio is ideal.)
  • If youíll be using other toppings, use a quantity you deem appropriate.
  • Sprinkle some parmesan or romano cheese on top of the pizza. (Regular grated cheese, like Kraft. None of that horrible "fancy" looking shredded stuff. If you use that nasty shredded stuff, I'll kick your ass.)
  • Peel onto stone.
  • Set a timer for 8 minutes.
  • If youíre baking at 500, itíll probably take at least 8 minutes to bake this pizza, but not more than 10 minutes.
  • While the pizza is baking, keep a bubble popper handy and keep an eye on the pizza in case you need to use the bubble popper.
  • After baking for 8-10 minutes (or however long you deem appropriate, pull the pizza from the oven.
  • Cut into squares of about 2Ē. For a 15Ē pizza, youíll probably want to go 4 cuts x 4 cuts, or possibly 5 x 5. (As you should be able to tell from me and briterianís actual Tommyís pics earlier in this thread, the cutting pattern seems to be one of many inconsistencies with Tommyís pizza.)
  • Pig out.
Any questions?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 06:06:47 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #333 on: September 29, 2013, 10:38:43 PM »
Very nice Ryan.  :D

Thanks for putting all of the ingredients and steps together in one helpful post.  I would like to try this recipe of yours in the coming weeks.  I have a couple other recipes in line, but yours is definitely in the que.  :drool:

-ME
Let them eat pizza.


Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #334 on: September 30, 2013, 03:44:28 AM »
 ^^^

Excellent write up, Ryan.  This guide of yours will be very helpful for me and everyone else who decides to give your Tommy's clone a try.  Well done!

--Tim

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #335 on: September 30, 2013, 11:58:48 AM »
Thank you, guys. I now realize I should have written a post like that a long time ago. But I guess I just tend to get so focused (tunnel-vision) that I can't always see the bigger picture.

Tim, you used a couple ingredients that I've never used but which I think may be good for this style of pizza (and may be ingredients of actual Tommy's dough). Without going back to look at your post, the one thing I remember most was the King Arthur bag, which I believe was non-diastatic malt powder. (Aside from the recent discussion about that stuff, the label on your package also caught my interest, mostly because it mentions 'smooth' or 'shiny,' which is a characteristic I think is shown in my most recent actual Tommy's pics but not my pizzas.) The other ingredient, I believe, was nonfat dry milk. I'd definitely like to get my hands on some of the malt powder.

One thing I've been wondering: Did you refrigerate your folded half-skins because you thought I do it that way, or did you intentionally stray from my workflow just to try something a little different? Because I don't do that, and I suspect the fact that you did may be part of why you didn't get much of a layering effect in your crust. (Another reason, I suspect, is that you added extra water.) I need to go back and reread your series of posts that recap your Tommy's style pizzas.

Ern, I hope you do give it a try before long. As I'm already familiar with your work, I think it would be really cool to see how your interpretation of this pizza turns out.

One more thing. My sauce for this style is:

28 oz Dei Fratelli crushed tomatoes.
2 tsp oregano
1/2 tsp basil
1/2 tsp salt
Optional: Just a little crushed red pepper (even though I don't think Tommy's uses it). Maybe 1/2 tsp.

I don't really like Dei Fratelli tomatoes, but they seem to be the best option so far, considering their availability (at least around here), as well as the fact that it may be just about the same product Tommy's uses. As Zing pointed out many pages back, after I posted a picture of Tommy's tomato product packaging (Star Cross crushed tomatoes), Star Cross and Dei Fratelli are both packed by the Hirzel Canning Company of Toledo, Ohio.

If you have access to Stanislaus Full-Red pizza sauce (or Full-Red "Concentrated Crushed," which is the same thing), get a can of that and try 22 oz + 6 oz of water, rather than 28 oz of Dei Fratelli.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #336 on: October 01, 2013, 03:15:06 AM »

Tim, you used a couple ingredients that I've never used but which I think may be good for this style of pizza (and may be ingredients of actual Tommy's dough). Without going back to look at your post, the one thing I remember most was the King Arthur bag, which I believe was non-diastatic malt powder. (Aside from the recent discussion about that stuff, the label on your package also caught my interest, mostly because it mentions 'smooth' or 'shiny,' which is a characteristic I think is shown in my most recent actual Tommy's pics but not my pizzas.) The other ingredient, I believe, was nonfat dry milk. I'd definitely like to get my hands on some of the malt powder.

One thing I've been wondering: Did you refrigerate your folded half-skins because you thought I do it that way, or did you intentionally stray from my workflow just to try something a little different? Because I don't do that, and I suspect the fact that you did may be part of why you didn't get much of a layering effect in your crust. (Another reason, I suspect, is that you added extra water.) I need to go back and reread your series of posts that recap your Tommy's style pizzas.


Ryan,

I actually added 3 new ingredients to the recipe.   ;) One was the Non-Diastatic malt powder, the 2nd was the Baker's Non Fat Dry Milk, and the 3rd was the Durkee Garlic Romano Sprinkle.  The malt powder, while great to make vanilla malts (you need a least 1/4 cup) has never really impressed me with adding much flavor to dough.  DNA Dan has also tried it and I think, concluded the same thing -- it doesn't really add any "malty" flavor to dough in these low quantities and is used, basically, instead of sugar in recipes.  It may add some shine to your crust but I'm not so sure about that either.

The Baker's Dry milk is a great "secret ingredient" that some people add to all of their crusts because they like what it does to it.  For instance see this thin crust recipe by BTB: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18966.msg185270.html#msg185270 

The Durkee Garlic Romano Sprinkle is one thing I've found (again, thanks to DNA Dan) that really adds flavor to the crust.  The smell of this in my dough makes me happy.

I did refrigerate the folded half-skins because I thought you did it that way, but a bulk rise prior to the folding makes more sense.  (Those little dough pillows did look cool though, huh?)

--Tim
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 03:17:43 AM by RockyMountainPie »

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #337 on: October 01, 2013, 01:06:36 PM »
Tim:

How much of the Durkee/Tone's Parmesan garlic powder, non-diastatic malt powder, and the Baker's Non Fat Dry Milk do you add to the recipe?  These are ingredients I have toyed around with in recipes that I have used - not as much the parmesan garlic powder as the other 2.  The other ingredients I tend to use around .75-2% depending on the recipe.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #338 on: October 01, 2013, 11:01:35 PM »
Tim:

How much of the Durkee/Tone's Parmesan garlic powder, non-diastatic malt powder, and the Baker's Non Fat Dry Milk do you add to the recipe?  These are ingredients I have toyed around with in recipes that I have used - not as much the parmesan garlic powder as the other 2.  The other ingredients I tend to use around .75-2% depending on the recipe.

-ME

Hi Ernie.  For the amounts of those ingredients I tried in the Tommy's clone, I posted the recipe at the start of this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg279392.html#msg279392 

In general, a teaspoon of BNFDM seems to be about right for a 14 to 16 inch pizza.  The non-diastatic milk powder, I use instead of sugar in recipes, but I really think you would need at least a tablespoon of it to make a noticeable difference.  The garlic Romano sprinkle, I use about 1% to 1.5% by weight in the dough and I remove an equal amount of flour so the hydration won't change too much.

-Tim
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 11:33:08 PM by RockyMountainPie »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #339 on: October 02, 2013, 01:23:52 AM »
Tim,

It's interesting that you've made small changes in my formula to include these few additional ingredients, which I have never used. Thanks to the insight of you and others, there seems to be mounting evidence that suggests nonfat dry milk and diastatic malt powder may actually be ingredients in Tommy's dough. Since I'm so unfamiliar with these ingredients, I probably never would have thought to use them. However, I'm now looking forward to getting my hands on some of this stuff because I feel like these things will probably make my Tommy's clones even Tommier. And even if these ingredients turn out not to do that, I'm still curious to learn, through experience, how they affect my crust.

I don't think any of you guys have ever had Tommy's, so I don't know how you're coming up with this stuff. But I'm thinking it may be because y'all are seeing things in my actual Tommy's pics that have been kind of invisible to me because my focus has been in other directions. Like the brown, shiny crust in my pictures from OSU Tommy's in Reply #295 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg275692.html#msg275692). That was invisible to me for a long time, but now I see it. And one thing I see is that the browning quality of the actual Tommy's crust doesn't quite look like sugar browning to me. Also, you don't see that kind of browning in my crusts, nor any kind of sheen.

Even the parmesan garlic powder has me thinking. Garlic is not a flavor I typically associate with Tommy's pizza, but I did mention a garlic flavor last October, after my most recent Tommy's visit, in Reply #268 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12446.msg220035.html#msg220035). I wouldn't have thought the garlic flavor came from the crust, and I still don't, but you got me thinking about it. Now I'm curious to put garlic powder in a dough, just to see what it's like. Unfortunately, I don't anticipate making any pizza for at least a couple more weeks.

This just occurred to me. I believe someone asked me recently what brand of shortening I've been using, and I didn't answer. I've been using Crisco baking sticks.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #340 on: October 02, 2013, 11:27:28 AM »
I never have to consider factors such as elevation above sea level when I make pizza or share my results and thoughts, seeing how I'm only several hundred feet above sea level. But since Tim has been so active in this thread, and since I'm guessing he's at least a mile above sea level, elevation has been on my mind lately. One thing about Tim's recent Tommy's style attempts that stood out to me is that his folded skins grew quite a bit during his overnight refrigeration. Since I wouldn't expect that kind of result if I did it the same way, one of my first thoughts was that this might have resulted from his elevation above sea level. But I also had to consider that maybe it was because he rolled the dough right after mixing (rather than after a bulk ferment, as I've been doing). Regardless, his folded skins fermented a lot more than I would expect.

Reading through a recent-but-buried thread in the Chitchat section several minutes ago, which asks where people live, Chau's response got me thinking:

Albuquerque, New Mexico.  We are about 5,000 ft above sea level.  The high altitude gives me extra lift in crust rise, but the dry climate does horrible things to  big bags of flour, especially since I can't use it up quick enough. :(

Having not read anything else about high-elevation baking, and having never had a reason to think about it before, all of this information suggests to me that high elevation equates to faster fermentation (perhaps due to lower pressure?). Anyway, this stuff is on my mind now, and I'm interested in how high elevation affects pizzamaking, compared to making pizza at lower elevations (like in Ohio).

So Tim, would you mind sharing a little about how you think high elevation affects your pizzamaking? (Also, I want you to know that thanks to you I've had John Denver stuck in my head for a while, but with slightly altered lyrics. Punk.) >:D
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline RockyMountainPie

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #341 on: October 03, 2013, 03:26:08 AM »
I never have to consider factors such as elevation above sea level when I make pizza or share my results and thoughts, seeing how I'm only several hundred feet above sea level. But since Tim has been so active in this thread, and since I'm guessing he's at least a mile above sea level, elevation has been on my mind lately. One thing about Tim's recent Tommy's style attempts that stood out to me is that his folded skins grew quite a bit during his overnight refrigeration. Since I wouldn't expect that kind of result if I did it the same way, one of my first thoughts was that this might have resulted from his elevation above sea level. But I also had to consider that maybe it was because he rolled the dough right after mixing (rather than after a bulk ferment, as I've been doing). Regardless, his folded skins fermented a lot more than I would expect.

Reading through a recent-but-buried thread in the Chitchat section several minutes ago, which asks where people live, Chau's response got me thinking:

Having not read anything else about high-elevation baking, and having never had a reason to think about it before, all of this information suggests to me that high elevation equates to faster fermentation (perhaps due to lower pressure?). Anyway, this stuff is on my mind now, and I'm interested in how high elevation affects pizzamaking, compared to making pizza at lower elevations (like in Ohio).

So Tim, would you mind sharing a little about how you think high elevation affects your pizzamaking? (Also, I want you to know that thanks to you I've had John Denver stuck in my head for a while, but with slightly altered lyrics. Punk.) >:D

Ryan,

Now you've really opened a can of worms.  :P  Pizza making at high altitudes does present some additional challenges but is no excuse for bad pizza.  I used to frequent a bakery located at 7200 feet above sea level and they made wonderful bread and pastries for decades.  The key is to, like all bakers must, make adjustments as needed to produce the best end results.

I agree with the quotation above from Chau and might add a little on the topic.  At sea level, the atmosphere presses on a square inch of surface with a weight of 14.7 pounds but at 5,000 feet, there is only 12.3 pounds of pressure.  This decreased pressure (aka "thin air") is responsible for the differences seen in baking and food preparation.

In high altitude baking, dough rises more rapidly and so the fermentation times are effectively shortened. However, the development of flavor still depends on the length of the rising period so I still try to maintain that time period, usually by punching down the dough more often than you would at sea level and/or by using less yeast.  I don't think you would get the kind of rise that I did in my folded dough regardless of your technique, simply because the effect is mainly a result of my altitude.  Another example of this effect occurred when I decided to use TomN's excellent recipe to make some beer pizzas:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17415.msg245184#msg245184  The recipe calls for the use of about 4.5 grams of IDY to make 3 dough balls, each about 349 grams.  I knew that in my kitchen this would be way too much yeast, but I decided to follow the recipe verbatim and see what would happen.  (pic 1)  That little 349 gram dough ball blew the (loosely placed) top off the container during its room temperature warm-up!  I made the pizza anyway and it actually came out all right. (pics 2-4)

The other adjustment that often needs to be made is a reduction in the amount of flour needed to create a dough of the proper consistency.  Flour at high altitudes tends to be drier and is thus able to absorb more liquid, therefore less flour is needed.  If my flour is already "in the bowl" I will instead add more water.  In the Tommy's clone dough I tried, you (correctly) pointed out that I probably added too much water, but trust me, if I wouldn't have added any additional water, I would have ended up with a huge pile of flour at the bottom of the bowl that would never have incorporated.  That first picture I posted in my mixing bowl was after I had already added some extra water.   Perhaps a better way to add moisture to these low hydration doughs without adding too much would be the "spray bottle" technique as mentioned by Peter here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53471.html#msg53471 and used successfully by nick57 in his thin pizzas: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18731.msg187171.html#msg187171

Unfortunately, there's no uniform or cookbook method to make these adjustments because changes in humidity can also affect the dryness of the flour.  My flour is often very powdery and dry.  When I buy flour, the first thing I do is move it to an airtight container like this: http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/lock-top-container-flour  But the question of course, is "How long has the flour been sitting on a store shelf before I bought it?"   In my area, the relative humidity during the summer months is below 32%, 3 out of every 4 days.  To give an example of how dry this is I can take a shower at 11:30 pm and when I wake up in the morning, the towel that I used to dry off is bone dry (provided I hang it up).  :)  In the winter, however, the humidity can average around 75% so it definitely fluctuates by season. 

Finally, at higher altitudes water boils at a lower temperature (about 200F to 202F).  This means that I need to cook things like pasta and rice longer than recipes state.  I'm sure this can also effect bake times and the level of moisture in my pizza crusts, but as usual, trial and error brings improved results.

"Life ain’t nothin’ but a funny funny riddle."  ;D
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 03:29:41 AM by RockyMountainPie »


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #342 on: October 03, 2013, 10:59:08 AM »
In the Tommy's clone dough I tried, you (correctly) pointed out that I probably added too much water, but trust me, if I wouldn't have added any additional water, I would have ended up with a huge pile of flour at the bottom of the bowl that would never have incorporated.
I think the pile of flour may also have something to do with using a mixer with a j-hook. On the rare occasion that I've used KitchenAid mixers with j-hooks, I've had a very hard time getting stiffer doughs to come together; dough that I know would come together if I made it in my own mixer, which has a spiral hook. Instead of fully mixing the dough, the j-hook only mixes the dough to a certain extent, then ends up pushing the piece of mixed dough around in circles atop a considerable amount of flour, never incorporating the remaining flour into the dough.

Rather than pushing the dough around in circles, my spiral dough hook pushes the dough downward into the unincorporated flour, effectively picking up all the flour. If I'm not careful, though, I could easily kill the mixer by making such stiff dough, as I did on June 22, 2011. Thankfully, I've since figured out some tricks to make this stiff dough easier on my refurbished mixer. (This is funny: My post immediately above the linked post expresses a dough formula that is very similar to my recent breakthrough dough, yet for some reason I decided to take my dough way off in the wrong direction.)

Even though I don't like the tilting-head KitchenAid mixers with j-hooks, I wish I had one, just to help me figure out tricks to better get the job done with that kind of mixer, so I could pass on my tricks to others. Especially considering I imagine that mixer model (Artisan?) is by far the most common or popular mixer model in home kitchens.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 11:00:50 AM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #343 on: October 03, 2013, 12:11:00 PM »
Pizza making at high altitudes does present some additional challenges but is no excuse for bad pizza.
Tim,

Excellent write-up on the effects of altitude on baking.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #344 on: February 23, 2014, 03:04:21 PM »
I received an email from someone about a week ago who had followed the directions in my long post (Reply #325 or something). He included three pics of one of the pizzas he made by following my instructions. I don't know if he is a member here, but I just felt it was only right to share his pics (because I think they look more like Tommy's than my pizzas).
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Steve

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #345 on: February 24, 2014, 11:15:16 AM »
Nice looking pies!

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #346 on: March 08, 2014, 04:27:53 PM »
Ryan, just finished off a 9" test pie of this recipe for our 14" dinner pie.  Baked at 530 on a stone.  Must say I am very impressed.  I had to really push the dough in a hot proofer to get it usable by tonight as I just started the dough upon waking.  I have learned to lighten up on the toppings on these cracker crusts, including the sauce.  If it turns out well tonight I'll take some pictures.  It layered, it crunched it was nice, with a bit of chew, on the inside.  It was easy to work with AP flour.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #347 on: March 08, 2014, 05:19:42 PM »
It was easy to work with AP flour.

Interesting that you say that because the last several days I've been messing around with fazzari's "every trick" dough and tips, which is not a whole lot different than my latest Tommy's formula and workflow (but is very different in a few ways). My first two batches of this dough were 40% hydration + 4% oil (with All Trumps unbromated flour). Needless to say, it took a lot of work to roll this dough.

With the batch I made yesterday, I increased the hydration by 8% (to 48%) and left the oil at 4%. I also used Superlative flour. With the 8% hydration increase, I expected this dough to be easy to roll. And it was, compared to the 40% dough. But it still took a lot of work to roll it; more work than I think it requires to roll my Tommy's dough with 43% hydration and 5% shortening (and AP flour). So I'm kinda curious to try it again with AP flour, and I'm also curious to find out how the pizzas from the Superlative dough turn out. I expect to use it by tomorrow (but might use it tonight, or tonight and tomorrow).

By the way, are you working on that manual sheeter? Or at least thinking about it? I think you can do it, and I want you to so badly. Especially after rolling these 4- to 8-layer 40% hydration skins the last few days.

One thing I've been meaning to mention about the pictures a few posts back is that the guy who made those pizzas didn't use the flour I suggest in my most recent best-yet post. Rather, he used Giustos. He didn't elaborate, so I don't know what type of Giustos flour he used. All I know is that he used Giustos. Also, I know nothing about Giustos flour. From what I can see in his pics, it looks like this flour makes a better Tommy's clone than the flours I've used.

I've been wanting to try to find an AP-level foodservice-quality flour to try, but I don't know where to start. I don't want to go out and buy 25 or 50 lbs of flour just to find out that it's not acceptable. And I certainly don't want to do that over and over. I guess it might be about time to do a little more dumpster diving.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #348 on: March 08, 2014, 08:19:58 PM »
My AP flour was nothing spectacular, just house brand Hotel and Restaurant from GFS.  I bought a 25 lb bag last time.

The small test pie needed a lot of bubble popping, so I lightly docked the dinner pizza.  Full docking was too much in my opinion.  Next time, sort of like a 1/2 dock.  Might take every other  blade off the spike docker.  Also baked about 7 and 1/2 minutes on a 530 F oven that was running since lunchtime.  It baked quicker.

I am happy with the crust.  Nice crunch.  I used your latest recipe from here in bakers percentages and grams http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg279392#msg279392  I did add 1tsp of diastic malt.  I also work my dough right out of the high temperature proofer. (oven with the light on given a head start with the elements for 2 minutes or so)  I am a big guy, so maybe I can really press on the rolling pin.

I have thought about the sheeter, and looked at what materials are needed for a NSF certified one.  Haven't gotten much farther than that.

Compliments to you Ryan,  :chef: nice recipe and workflow.  Even pushing it into the oven in 12 hours was pretty good.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Tommy's Pizza (Columbus OH) - Any recipe ideas
« Reply #349 on: March 08, 2014, 10:07:04 PM »
I have tried quite a few flours and what I noticed with this style is if you use an AFP or something that isn't a high gluten flour, the crust is more tender and light. Sometimes if the hydration is too high it won't be very crispy. With a low hydration I would describe the crust as crispy with these flours. Also, the fat/oil content seems to make a larger difference here.

When I use high gluten type flours, the crust tends to have more of a crunch to it. (More like a corn chip) It also seems to stay crunchy longer in a pan and will hold it's weight when holding a solo slice.

Personally I prefer the harder "Snappy" crust so that's partly why I use the higher gluten forming flours.