Author Topic: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE  (Read 11850 times)

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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2011, 07:40:07 PM »
Thanks Chau and Norma for the high compliments. I myself wouldn't exactly say I've hit my stride just yet- I'm still a bit wobbly, stumbling about here and there- but I will say that I'm not just blindly wandering around in the dark anymore, the way I did back when the Sfincione and Pizzarium threads started a year back.

The recipe I had planned to use today was in fact the same one I developed in reply 5 in this thread well over a year ago: 70% hydro, .25% IDY, 2% salt, 6% oil. Unfortunately, I got distracted and lost track of much water I was adding >:( The finished dough was either in the low 70s or high 60s, which guesstimate isn't particularly helpful.

Anyways, I let my mixer form a ball and clear the bowl. I then hand-kneaded the ball for 3 minutes, then let rest 20, then did another 3, then let rest 20 more, then did just under another 3. With this process, I developed the hell out of the gluten, which I think is essential to getting the open crumb. I still have a *lot* to learn about that subject, so I kind of overdid it. But I will confidently say, as a general principle, that you should develop the gluten as far as you dare.

I then put the dough in an oiled container and into a warm oven for a few hours. I dropped it out onto a floured board, sprinkled flour on top, and then pressed it out with my fingertips as shown in the Bosco and Bonci videos. Since this wasn't an >80% dough and was quite firm, I felt comfortable picking it up, draping the ends over my fists, and stretching it forward (similar to what you'd do when hand-tossing a round pie). I also stretched the sides as shown in the videos, and transferred it to the pan with the forearm technique also demonstrated in the vid's. Then I adjusted it to the pan, tried to even out the dough with my fingers, popped a bubble in the rim that I knew would make trouble w/a toothpick, spread the sauce on, then put the pan in the oven. This was about 4 hours after taking it out of the mixer.

I experienced some springback in the pan when it was already baking in the oven and there was nothing I could do about it, giving the baked pie a kind of oval shape. This may be the price I pay for making same-day doughs that I develop by crudely manhandling them.

Hope this helps,

JLP
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2011, 07:58:17 PM »
Thanks for detailing what you did JLP.  I always appreciate a lot of info.  A few questions.  What brand & strength of flour did you use?  Was it BF or HG?  Bleached or bromated?   

If you used a 13% or stronger flour, your recipe makes a lot of sense.  What I mean is that it matches the picture you posted.  Which by the way, that last crumb shot I consider to be an excellent crumb.  Trust me when I say that I can tell by photos.   I can look at a picture of a crumb and pretty much know how it taste texturally.  So when you say it was really good, it fits the picture.   

The high 60's to low 70's % ball park hydration ratio is not that crucial, meaning you can get the same crumb out of either HR, by adjusting the oil up or down a bit or adjust the kneading a bit.   The main thing is that you used around a 70% HR with 6% oil.  That puts the actual HR somewhere in the ball park of 74-75%.  I don't know exactly, it's somewhere there.   

When I make my regular pizzas with HG bromated flour, I typically use a 73-76% HR (including the 2% oil) and achieve a very similar looking crumb to the one you posted.  I just stretch my pizzas really thin in the center but many of my later crust/crumb shots  look like that last pic you posted. 

Also you may have overkneaded just a bit BUT (and I say this with emphasis) it really didn't matter b/c you got an excellent (IMO) result.  Typically overkneading can make a dough harder to open and it will also retract after stretching as you noted and will typically result in a tough crumb.  You HAD to overknead this (again) b/c of the 6% oil.  I'm not going to say that is too high b/c it's all relative, but the more oil you use, the more you have to knead to get gluten developement, but the high oil % also has a softening effect on the crumb.  This is why your crumb was not tough or too chewy.  It was all balanced out very well including the bake which is why you got the result you did.   

If you ever forget what you did you can now always return to your posts and should be able to replicate it.   Again, great job.   

Chau

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2011, 09:05:23 PM »
Thanks for detailing what you did JLP.  I always appreciate a lot of info.  A few questions.  What brand & strength of flour did you use?  Was it BF or HG?  Bleached or bromated? 

It was a 50-50 mix of Canadian Robin Hood BF and Five Roses AP. I think I mentioned these flours to you in another thread. I wouldn't try to make the Pizza Romana with this blend (or, for that matter, either of its constituent flours), but it works quite well for American pizzas and American Sicilian variants such as the tomato pizza. The nutritional info on the bags gives the protein at 13.33% for both. I'm not sure if they're bleached, but they are definitely unbromated (bromated flour was banned here a long time ago).
  
JLP
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 09:19:54 PM »
Thanks for the info JLP.  So this is categorized as a Sicilian style which is also different from a Pizza Romana?  Excuse my ignorance, can you (or anyone else) explain the differences to me.   They look similar though I'm sure they are different in some respects.  Is one just an Italian or Roman version of the other?

Thanks,
Chau

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2011, 11:45:16 PM »
Thanks for the info JLP.  So this is categorized as a Sicilian style which is also different from a Pizza Romana?  Excuse my ignorance, can you (or anyone else) explain the differences to me.   They look similar though I'm sure they are different in some respects.  Is one just an Italian or Roman version of the other?

Thanks,
Chau

WARNING: TL;DR

This is a good topic. The normal North American signification of "Sicilian pizza" is any pizza baked in a rectangular pan. That's something like what we have on the sub-forum portal here. But I bet when this site started nobody realized how many (overlapping, but distinguishable) sub-styles this definition encompasses. The sub-terminology remains to be systematized in a way everybody can agree on, so I can only try to clarify how I use it.

Now, Pizza Romana is still exotica to me, but I can speak with more confidence about tomato pizzas as I've been eating them my entire life.

Anyhow, by "tomato pizza" (baker's pizza, tomato pie), I understand a pizza based on a dough made of bread or AP flour, baked on a pan, with lots of oil (in the pan, in the dough, and in or on the sauce), and topped of course with tomato sauce (which should contain oregano). This type of pizza almost always has a dense, whitebread-type crumb structure and is supposed to (it is better understood as a savory bread than as a pizza, at least in the North American sense of the term). See my own reply 11 to this thread for an ideal exemplar of the crumb. It is also supposed to be soft both on the inside and the outside (since it can be difficult to make them without getting a hard cornicone, in some cases the pie will be sauced as close to the edge of the pan as possible, and sometimes the cornicone will even be cut off altogether). It is usually ideally eaten at room temp, since it softens as it cools down (cooling also brings out a certain vibrancy in the tomato flavours for some reason). Slices may be re-warmed (not re-heated); an extra drizzle of oil may be used to keep the slice soft during re-warming.

Today these guidelines are ignored or altogether unknown; people use them as par-baked pizza bases or buy them topped with whatever from the baker and in either case bake it a second time at home until crunchy (something that nobody who doesn't actually want to experience the sensation of carrying a sack of wet cement in their stomach for several hours should try).

In any case, this style of pizza is supposed to be of Sicilian provenance, but must be rigorously distinguished from the original Sicilian sfincione, which is made with semolina or potato flour, and has its own unique style of topping (see Norma's thread on the subject).

My knowledge of Pizza Romana is far more sketchy. By this term, I understand a pizza, made with a dough comprised of Italian flour grades I don't really understand yet, often leavened with natural starters, w/hydro levels in the 80-90% range, and developed (in commercial settings) in spiral mixers using a start-stop kneading method known as rigenero which develops a tremendously strong gluten. Oil is used in these doughs, in varying amounts (that remain unclear to me). The resulting dough is formed and placed in a pan and baked at about 572 in an oven with user-definable top and bottom heat (in professional settings that is). The end result is a pizza with a wide open, soft crumb and an exterior that is crispy when removed from the oven and also when re-heated, but softer at room temp.

My experiment today was an attempt to hybridize the softness of the tomato pizza with the open crumb of the Romana, so it isn't an authentic representative of either style. But I like it...

JLP
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 10:56:08 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2011, 09:24:48 AM »
Thank very much for your response.   It would seem that both are semi thick pizzas but the main differences is Sicillian is typically baked in a pan with more oil so that the crust is fried whereas Pizza Romana uses very little oil if baked in a tray and can also be baked on the deck or stone.   I'm sure there are some other differences (as you mentioned) in the flours used, techniques employed, and the resulting textural differences.

My experiment today was an attempt to hybridize the softness of the tomato pizza with the open crumb of the Romana, so it isn't an authentic representative of either style. But I like it...

JLP

which makes it that much better IMO.    ;D

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2011, 08:15:30 PM »
I think that in the above effort I may have (partially, and accidentally) restored the sort of tomato pizza I grew up with to its Sicilian origins in the sfincionello or Sicilian street pizza. Compare my result with the images in the following articles:

http://www.palermoweb.com/panormus/gastronomia/sfincione.htm
http://www.ricettedisicilia.net/antipasti/sfincionello-palermitano/

The text of these articles would probably prove illuminating, but does me no good as I can't really read Italian...

JLP
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Offline norma427

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2011, 09:23:35 PM »
I think that in the above effort I may have (partially, and accidentally) restored the sort of tomato pizza I grew up with to its Sicilian origins in the sfincionello or Sicilian street pizza. Compare my result with the images in the following articles:

http://www.palermoweb.com/panormus/gastronomia/sfincione.htm
http://www.ricettedisicilia.net/antipasti/sfincionello-palermitano/

The text of these articles would probably prove illuminating, but does me no good as I can't really read Italian...

JLP

Jose,

This is what translates on my computer, but I don’t know if it is right. I am sure not Italian, so I am not sure.

 " sfinciuni U "is a typical dish of Palermo, characteristic of the Christmas period, an equivalent of the Sicilian Pizza Napoletana.

  Poor food for our kitchen, born of the need not to apply for the holidays, the usual bread, but something else, sung in a dress to the occasion.   
He says in its structure (flour and yeast), probably Arab, while his name has been attributed in Sicily.   
We define this as sfincia something as soft as the saying goes: 'and' na sfincia muoddu Community "(it is as soft as a sfincia ).
  Many of its variants: Thought sfincione was invented by some nuns in the monastery of San Vito Palermo.
  In Palermo the simple basic elements are enriched with tomato sauce and other ingredients such as anchovies and cheese that give them a different flavor.
  In some parts of Palermo, sfincione represents the "bread and butter" of peasant origin. A Bagheria is the traditional main dish on the menu that is prepared the day before each Christmas Party (Immaculate Conception, Christmas, Epiphany).
  The preparation of these sfincioni is only at this time, except, as reported by Pitre,   only when you are preparing for the feast of betrothal, the so-called "appuntamientu", which took place in the home of the bride.

In Palermo sfincione also came from the mythical time of the party to enter into the ordinary one.
Now you can buy every day, so is present in every deli and features stalls or motolape moving through the streets of the city extolling his goodness: "begged u sfincionello ..." warm and soft with a pinch of oregano, the fast and competent hand watering with a thin thread of olive oil for the customer duty.

 E 'was elected by the community as Bagheria culinary dish   represents. In fact the sfincioni Bagheria are distributed throughout the world as immigrants continue to ask all the bakers Bagheria. On the evening before the whole village is flooded by the smell of baking coming and going from one oven to another; sfincione could be described as a flavored bread, but the richness of its seasoning a dish makes it unique.

His bread dough, leavened with art, makes it soft and height, a circular or square, seasoned before being baked: anchovies, onion, cheese and oil, but the main thing is the bread sauce, it is which gives the sfincione its own identity, rather it is, and makes the traditional dish Bagheria, this variant, which differs from Palermo and its neighboring countries, where the key ingredient is the tomato sauce.

The dough is leavened flour twice making it softer because it is more water-rich.

It is then crushed with the palm of your hand and light touch with the experts and you take the desired shape.

On this form you stick the anchovies into small pieces. The second layer consists of slices of pecorino or fresh tuma or primosale. The third and final layer consists of the breadcrumbs mixed with grated pecorino cheese, dried onion or shallots in the pan raw finely chopped by hand, new oil and oregano.

The bread crumbs should not be, because it would be too dry and contains the crust giving more to sfincione that "whiteness" that is his prerogative, but there is a crumb on the preparation of special requirements: it must be produced by rubbing a hand from large loaves of stale bread, called "vastidduna pi 'sfinciuni" buy to do this three or four days earlier.

Another essential thing is " firing "that must be done with the oven.

A Bagheria there are still two started in the second half of the 800. They have the same type of "Roman" domed ceiling and circular large to be used for public use. This type of oven was widely circulated in Europe.

E 'custom that sfincioni, Bagheria, both those sold by the bakers or prepared by housewives, are cooked in ovens public. The housewives then, after preparing them, take them to the oven for baking. The owners of the bakery were paid a fee.

This practice, if it has memory for up to half of the 900, when the women went public in the oven and take advantage of a great "Maidda" to prepare the dough. With the advent of the mechanical kneading moist has been abolished. Now the dough is no longer prepared by housewives, they are limited to preparing "a Cuonzo," the seasoned crumbs, and then moved into their homes at the baker's trust.

It 'still characteristic see all these people coming and going very busy that is intent on preparing the tasty spincione, who fired in a wood oven gives off an intense smell of the wood of lemon or olive twigs. In oven cooking takes place directly on the bricks, as opposed to electric ovens for baking where you need to use the pans; terms of taste is definitely more delicious than cooked traditionally.

The most exciting moment is when the baker bakes the sfincioni and to recognize its membership, loudly shouting: "Haggi, alive, Nuci, ramurazza, cakes, scuorzi" corresponding to the "signal" posed by each chef to distinguish them from others.

The second article:

We speak of Palermo sfincionello because, despite being a very close relative of the most popular sfincione , deserves a separate mention. This very traditional piece of rotisserie Palermo is a specialty, along with the " bread and fritters cazzilli "and the loaves about mieusa , is the classic way to eat in Palermo.
The old saying sacarsu r'uogghio and Chinu pruvulazzu the (lack of oil and full of dust) was intended to refer to sfincionello. In fact, usually is sold by street vendors still use (such as traveling store) the famous "lapa" (motorcycle Ape), decorated for the small shop, with the proper showcases, where they expose the product thoroughly. And, by the seller of this folk, I can not help but describe the 'abbanniata classic that use use to invite potential customers.

The voice in the distance from the "lapa" (suitably equipped speaker) close, brings with it the unmistakable scent of sfincionello!
The abandonment is the added value of this specialty, which is now hopelessly in Palermo is synonymous sfincionello.
Here it is:
those specialties! (And specialties)
Who cuosi beautiful! (Which is good)
I ciù fazzu old Vieru (this I prepare really old)
Who ciavuru! (That smell)
Uora u sfurnavi, Uora! (Now I just cooked, now!)
assa is missing! (Come and eat)
chistu is sfinciuni turnover ra Vieru beautiful! (This is done really well sfincione)
Who ciavuru! (That smell)
Who cuosi beautiful! (Which is good)
'U pitittu fazzu grapiri us! (I'll whet your appetite)
About cuosi Vieru beautiful! (Which truly beautiful things)
Chisti sunnu cuosi tastanu about it! (These are things that taste)
About ciavuruuuuuu! (That smell)
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2011, 10:14:52 PM »
Thanks Norma!

JLP
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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: LARGE SQUARE "TOMATOE PIE" BAKERY STYLE
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 11:34:42 PM »
W/respect to the content of the articles, they all mention the usual Palermitan sfincione toppings (anchovies, caciocavallo, etc.)- but in the pics I see nothing but tomatoes. This is also true of several other sfincionello pics I've been able to dig up. And I figure that if the street version was derided as rich in dust, but scarce in oil, then it likely was/is scarce in toppings as well. So i'm going to go ahead and guess that the all-dressed version was the high-end, premium pie, whereas the sfincionello peddled from the cart was far more minimalistic.

EDIT: After examining several more pics, I think I can see the breadcrumbs (they may contribute to the orange as opposed to red colour of the pies), but not the anchovies, caciocavallo, etc.

JLP
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 01:36:08 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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