Pizza Shop Dough

[Jackie Tran]

Mark.  Nice job once again.  Overall, pizza looks as tastey as the one prior.  You've really got the baking method in your oven down.  How long are your bake times overall if you had to guestimate?

The crumb looks good but not as good as the pie prior IMO.  As far as texture is concerned, which pie did you like better and why? 

Also I know you've already posted that this pie was lighter and less toothy in structure, but the crumb shot here looks like the gluten is more developed than the first in a detrimental way.  It could be the yeast amount/ferment times or slightly more kneading.

The other possibility is that depending on the amount of starter used in the prior pie, it could have increased your hydration a % or 2.

Either way, thanks for doing the experiment and you did a fabulous job once again.  Your pies have improved greatly.

Chau

[StrayBullet]

Mark.  Nice job once again.  Overall, pizza looks as tasty as the one prior.  You've really got the baking method in your oven down.  How long are your bake times overall if you had to guesstimate?

Once again, thanks!!!  I really appreciate the kudos and feedback!!!

If I start with bake (3 minutes), then switch to broil (90 seconds) it's near spot on 5 minutes.

If I start with broil (2 minutes), then switch to bake, I've baked off in the sub 4 minute range.

Last night I engaged the broiler and timed it so it would disengage 1 minute after tossing in the pie, the bake time was a bit longer than 4 minutes.  I did this to get the stone as hot as possible for the bottom of the pie yet have the direct broiler heat for the first minute of cooking the top.  I think it's the best of both worlds but a pain in the arse to manage well

The crumb looks good but not as good as the pie prior IMO.  As far as texture is concerned, which pie did you like better and why? 

Also I know you've already posted that this pie was lighter and less toothy in structure, but the crumb shot here looks like the gluten is more developed than the first in a detrimental way.  It could be the yeast amount/ferment times or slightly more kneading.

The other possibility is that depending on the amount of starter used in the prior pie, it could have increased your hydration a % or 2.

Great question, and honestly I'm not sure.  The "starter pie" was more "artisan" in my opinion, had more character to the crumb, had more taste to the crust but my wife commented it being "a little bready."  She also said my rustic loaves were too crusty, so the hell with her taste-buds

The "IDY pie" was more like a NY slice to me, but done well

"Better" to me is real subjective 'cause I could be in the mood for either pie.  If I was forced to choose, I'd probably go with the "starter pie" and cut back from 5% to a lower value and see what happens.  It's almost like the difference between a good hamburger at a local joint and one at a steakhouse.

I agree about the hydration being thrown off a bit due to technique or starter consistency and don't know if my hands are calibrated to feel the difference of a percent or two, but they did feel similar.

Thanks again!  And I'm looking forward to seeing if I can recreate the results this weekend 

Mark

[Jackie Tran]

Mark yes "better" is subjective especially when looking at single shots of the crust/crumb.  It's not a true representation of the whole rim much less what it actually taste like.  Your starter percent is very appropriate but I always encourage experimentation.  To get less breadiness you may also want to try cutting in a small amount of a lower protein flour or/and up the hydration a bit.

The feeling of the dough is as much important as the actual %'s of ingredients or kneading times.  Pull on the dough after it's kneaded and take mental notes of the condition and compare that to the finished crust.  In no time you'll develop a feel for the dough to get consistent and desired results with each bake.

Keep up the good work and keep posting those good looking pies.
Chau

[Pete-zza]

Peter do you have a picture of this crumb or texture so I can see what you are referring to?  I'll have to try this test on my crumb next time I bake.

Chau,

While I was researching a matter on Norma's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.0.html, I saw several examples of the type of naturally-leavened crumb that I was talking about. See, for example, the crumb photos at Reply 277 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg114417.html#msg114417. As you will see there, the alveoles are of different sizes and shapes and the crumb itself is a "webby" structure with an almost shiny or glossy appearance. Norma may be able to confirm this, but if you were to stretch the crumb in Norma's crust, but without trying to actually tear it apart, it is likely to spring back. Also, the crust/crumb should have a chew or "toothiness" about it, unlike, say, a typical white supermarket bread.

Norma's thread is loaded with crumb shots of naturally-leavened crusts. Another example is at Reply 254 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113721.html#msg113721.

I suspect that if there is anyone on the forum who can replicate the type of crumb shown in Norma's photos but using commercial yeast, you would be the one most likely to do it. I have not been able to do it in my standard unmodified home oven, which is the only oven I have for baking pizzas.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

While I was researching a matter on Norma's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.0.html, I saw several examples of the type of naturally-leavened crumb that I was talking about. See, for example, the crumb photos at Reply 277 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg114417.html#msg114417. As you will see there, the alveoles are of different sizes and shapes and the crumb itself is a "webby" structure with an almost shiny or glossy appearance. Norma may be able to confirm this, but if you were to stretch the crumb in Norma's crust, but without trying to actually tear it apart, it is likely to spring back. Also, the crust/crumb should have a chew or "toothiness" about it, unlike, say, a typical white supermarket bread.

Norma's thread is loaded with crumb shots of naturally-leavened crusts. Another example is at Reply 254 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113721.html#msg113721.

I suspect that if there is anyone on the forum who can replicate the type of crumb shown in Norma's photos but using commercial yeast, you would be the one most likely to do it. I have not been able to do it in my standard unmodified home oven, which is the only oven I have for baking pizzas.

Peter

Thanks Peter for the description and pictures.  With your description of a natural leavened dough and pictures of Norma's crumb shots, I think I understand now the differences of a typical naturally leavened crumb vs one of a commerically yeasted crumb.   I think my ideal type of crumb is that of an airy and light lofty toothy structure crumb.  It likely has slightly less chew than that of a naturally leavened dough but more than that of a white bread with a tight cell structure.  I think we would both say that a white bread has very little chew to it.  I like slightly crunchy/crispy and with a slight chew.  Not too much or it gives the impression of a bready rim.   Also the more air and the lighter the better.   The closest  I can describe my ideal crumb is something similiar to the crumb of a french bread. I think you've seen some of my latest crumb shots, that is ideal to my taste. 

Thanks again for posting the links.

Chau

[norma427]

Peter and Chau,

Peter was right about how if I tried to stretch the crumb on my crusts I made with the Ischia starter, it would spring back.  With each new pizza experiment I try, I actually tear one piece of pie apart to see what it looks like on the inside of the pie and also stretch the crumb to see what happens. The crust/crumb did have chew. The bottom of these pies were crispy.

I believe you also could produce a pie very similar to the pies I baked with using commercial yeast if that is what you are looking for.  I wish Steve and I would have done an experiment on two doughs he brought to market yesterday.  They were both Caputo doughs that were made with IDY and had a long room fermentation.  One was made last Thursday and one was made Saturday.  He had used both of some of these doughs for baking in his WFO two times over the weekend.  They were left out for an unusually long time and looked like they were overfermented, but when he used them for Greek pizza yesterday, they handled very well.  The crumb of those pies tasted great.  I did take a few pictures of that pie yesterday, if you want to see them. I wish we would have tried to bake a Caputo long room fermented dough ball in the deck oven.  I didn’t think about it until now.  The formula Steve used was John’s formula with IDY.  I am sure you will come up with a way of producing the kind of pie you want.   

Best of luck! 

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Norma I would love to see the pictures along with any details or notes.

Chau

[norma427]

Norma I would love to see the pictures along with any details or notes.

Chau

Chau,

I don’t want to get this thread too far off topic, so I only will post this one time on this thread.  I have been know for taking threads off topic.    This is dellavecchia’s (John’s) post and formula where he made his pies with a room temperature with cake yeast that Steve used for his bakes on Friday, Sunday in his WFO and yesterday from the same dough for a Greek Pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11886.msg112775.html#msg112775

I am sorry in my last post if I mislead you into thinking Steve used IDY for his pies.  He really did use cake yeast.  I am sorry I posted wrong.    If you look under the thread where I posted of the bake of the pizzas in Steve’s WFO you can see the pies that were baked at his home using John’s formula. 

I would have never thought the dough was still useable yesterday, but the taste of the crust was amazing.  So was the whole pizzas.

These are two pictures I took of the Greek Pizza.

Sorry Mark, for taking this thread off-topic.  I won’t do it anymore. 

Chau, if you want to ask me more about this dough or pie, ask me under one of your threads.

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Norma thanks for the link, picture, and for obliging me.  I promise not to try and get you to hijack another thread okay.   

Mark, also not sure if you knew but in reply #74, you posted a picture of the starter pie rather than the IDY pie.

Chau

[StrayBullet]

  no worries at all y'all   Action is action in my opinion!

I've caught the bug, at least for now.  I incorporated a freshly fed, lively active starter for a pizza dough that will be fermented at room temp (72-68 for 12 or so, then 77 for another 5-7) for close to 20 hours

I also have a poolish (200g flour/200g water with 3g ADY) and a leaven (220gflour/220g water/7g starter at 24 hours) set in the same 72-68 setting overnight for baking off some baguettes tomorrow vis a vis Tartine Bread 

The "Pizza Shop Dough Starter" has been split, fed and put to bed...can't wait to see how all of this turns out 

Oh, and I made two doughs for my neighbor when they were piqued during our last conversation about cooking.

Mark

[norma427]

Mark,

Thanks for saying you weren’t upset with me going off-topic on your thread.  That darn pizza bug is one of the hardest bugs to get rid of once you catch it.  You better watch out, is also contagious.   

Looking forward to see how your results turn out in making your pizza and baguettes.

Norma

[StrayBullet]

I used to help moderate one of the largest car enthusiast websites out there; it's go with the flow for me now

I've got the bug for sure, and it expands to cooking/baking in general so there's a lot to learn which tends to keep my mind busy.  I love to pick up new things and often move on after time, with cooking/baking, the topics are so vast it's a never ending journey

Mark

[StrayBullet]

This is the latest pie made with the starter I created from a local pizza shop dough, the saga continues

Right off the bat, I made a piss-poor toss when I tried throwing this thing into the oven, hence the shape and the uneven bake (I have new wood and aluminum peels but no excuse).  That aside, I really liked the texture and flavor the best of what I've done so far with this natural leaven thing

I used 3% starter when it was nice and active, about 5 hours after feeding.  It was a bulk ferment for 13 hours at around 70^o or so, then room temp (77) for 5-6 hours.  It was then cold-fermented for 24 hours before cooking today as previously described.  Overall, this had the best combination of flavor, structure and character for me.  My wife said it tasted good on its own, not "bready" but had good flavor.  It did not have near the toothiness of the previous attempt.

Overall this is a keeper for me!  The issue is how to achieve the bulk ferment when the weather doesn't cooperate, but then again I guess I could venture down the thermo-electric cooling road I mapped out for a temp/humidity controlled storage device for my cigars

Mark, also not sure if you knew but in reply #74, you posted a picture of the starter pie rather than the IDY pie.

Chau

I knew that was bound to happen with multiple pies being posted

One project at a time each with its own folder from here on out 

Mark

[Jet_deck]

Thanks for showing the dough on the peel.  I know how much expertice it must take to push one out that big. Hats off on the pizza, it looks very good.
 

[acbova]

A little late to the party but I will say this. 

I have often thought of asking Peter for a dough ball to do this exact thing, but my trip home involves air travel and that at the least seemed inconvenient. 

Peter has encouraged me to not use IDY with my natural leaven and my results have been very good even with a short fermentation 1/2 day fermentation.