Author Topic: Hi new here, need your educated opinions  (Read 2862 times)

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Offline gabagool

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Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« on: July 15, 2008, 10:11:08 AM »
Hi

First I want to thank you for allowing me to become a member of this forum.  I have lurked a long time, but now I have a question that needs answering from PROFESSIONALS.  I have posted in a forum geared towards pizza lovers, but most ARE NOT pros and I am sure that the answers will be a bit skewed towards the ROMANCE of certain ovens instead of the REAL value.

Please, if this info has been discussed elsewhere point me in the direction I need to go and I will follow.  I am sorry if it has already been discussed.  I HAVE read MANY posts that have SOME info, but none where its all organized in one post.

I have two pizza places.  One small, one large.  I use 120,000 btu gas fired brick ovens.  If I were to describe the TYPE of pizza we make, I would say its pretty close to NEW HAVEN PIZZA, minus the coal oven (though not all NH pizzerias use a coal oven.)  I am beginning to design and formulate my BEST restaurant yet.  I would like to know what OTHER pros think about OVENS.

I'm thinking about 3 types.  I KNOW each one has its pros and cons.  I would like as many pros and cons as you guys can give me.

Gas Deck Ovens
PROS: ease of use/ ease of training/ consistancy/ little or no turning/  clean and efficient/ CAN produce
          fantastic pizza when using great ingredients (DiFaras)/ cost efficient/ made for AMERICAN type pizza,
          in other words, because of the wide doors, a bigger, heavier topped pie can be manuevered easily.

CONS: Well, in all honesty, boring.  There is no MARKETING possibilites.  Beside that, there really are no cons.
         

Wood Burning
PROS: Marketable, beautiful, more delicious burnt spots, quick, imparts a slight smoky flavor MOST people like.
     
CONS: Small opening, really made for a Naples,Italian type pie, smaller, very little toppings, individual pies.
           More difficult to use, train.  Dirtier.  More expensive to run.  Can't really fitt many pies for its size.

Coal Oven
PROS: The most romantic of all east coast ovens.  Quick, quick, quick, a flavor MOST find pleasing.
CONS: Local legalities, expensive to buy and use, the most DIFFICULT to train and use. The "next day" slices
           are drier than a deck ovens slices.


Well, there you have it.  I obviously know the most about deck ovens.  The wood burning and coal burning ovens, I need opinions on.  I would appreciate ANY info.  I know EVERY oven has its good and bad, and I want to weigh all the aspects and make a decision. 

Thank you so VERY VERY much for ANY advice. Looking forward to hearing from you.

PS: I have posted in other forums, so I am sorry if you have read this post before, I am trying to get the most opinions I can.


Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2008, 10:48:46 AM »
I am a fan of wood burning ovens. That being said many fine pizzas come out of gas & coal ovens. Obviously it is easier to run a gas oven and train employees to do so.

I must tell you however that this statement "The "next day" slices are drier than a deck ovens slices." is what would keep me from returning to a pizza place. Buying a "slice" this has been sitting around collecting dust is not what I want as a customer. What is the point of spending time and money creating a good image and then blowing it by serving old food.

I no longer eat "slices" for just that reason, unless the place is booming and pulling fresh pies out of the oven all the time.

Good luck with which method you choose.

PNW

Offline gabagool

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2008, 11:22:27 AM »
Pizza

Thanks for the post.  By leftover slice I mean the slice you have left over and take home. You know the "breakfast slice?" I like pizza cold, the next day.....It seems coal cooked ones are a lot drier.  BUt it  could only be my imagination.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2008, 11:26:20 AM »
gabagool,

I see that you have already posted at the PMQ Think Tank. If you haven't already done so, you might also post at the PizzaToday Bulletin Board at http://www.pizzatoday.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi.

Peter

Offline David

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2008, 11:37:14 AM »
You haven't said what type of pizza (s) you want to produce and that for me would determine the type of oven I would chooseYou also have the option of electric decks which can offer high temps.and are more versatile than wood or coal enabling you to produce a wider range of pizza / focaccia breads etc.From my experience a wood flame is the most romantic,coal is the dirtiest,electric the most versatile and gas the most widely used (though not my first choice )
My personal preference ranking would be (due to the types of pizza I prefer ):

1) wood
2) electric
3) gas
4) coal
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline gabagool

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 05:19:07 PM »
Well
I listed New Haven type pizza as the closest version.  New Haven is a BIT thicker than NY, uses shredded mozz, not fresh, top quality tomatoe, 12 and 18 inches and cooked on the darker side.  Most New Haven pizza is TRADITIONALLY done in a coal oven, but now always.

Your point is well taken and valid.

New Haven Pizza COULD be done in ANY type oven, its just that cooking for the crowds is ALOT different than cooking at your house for a dozen FORGIVING guests.

I am SHOCKED that you prefer electric over gas.  I would like to hear your reasoning.  Thanks a ton.

Offline David

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2008, 07:08:39 PM »
If I were to describe the TYPE of pizza we make, I would say its pretty close to NEW HAVEN PIZZA, minus the coal oven (though not all NH pizzerias use a coal oven.)  I am beginning to design and formulate my BEST restaurant yet. 

Sorry I didn't asume that you were continuing with the same theme.and that your BEST is naturally NEW HAVEN PIZZA.

The electrics can reach 850F (as some gas, it is claimed ) and is considered a dry heat compared to gas.
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline gabagool

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 02:52:06 AM »
Thanks Pete, its much appreciated.

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 04:25:22 AM »
Hi,

I believe there was a thread were we was already discussed Wood fired vs Coal fired.

Anyway, I would like to address some of the statements that you have made on Pros and Cons of Wood VS Coal, specifically referring to a Forno Napoletano oven:

A 130cm wood Burning Forno Napoletano can come with the opening of the sizes, 44cm (about 16 inches) and 54cm (about 20 inches) as per our latest delivery in Argentina. Also as amply demonstrated, a Forno Napoletano is quicker then a coal oven (easy to bake in 30-60 seconds vs 3-5 minutes registered in NYC coal ovens) and in your statements you have 3 x quick for coal and 1 x quick for wood....

Finally, it may not contain many pizza at once, but due to the quicker bake, you can have a larger output per hour.

Thanks,

Marco
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 04:28:31 AM by pizzanapoletana »

Offline jjerrier2450

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 08:44:45 AM »
Hi there - I also run 2 pizza restaurants...1 very small with deck ovens, 1 very large with 2 wood burning ovens.  From a marketing standpoint, wood-burning or coal-burning is what is hot right now.  I would NEVER open another restaurant without a wood-burning oven.  Per pizzanapoletana's post - if you are using wood burning ovens right, you can easily manage heavy throughput...pizzas cook much quicker as well.  They retain heat well and can be very efficient from a fuel consumption standpoint - without the fluctuations in natural gas prices either.  The flavor cannot even be compared.  Absolutely take this with a grain of salt - my preference is for Neapolitan style pizza.  It is a differentiator and delicious.  From a business standpoint, smaller more traditional Neapolitan pizzas can be more profitable - as an example, a family may come in and order 2 Neapolitan Margheritas at $12-14 each vs. coming in and ordering one larger NY style for $16-18.

There are plenty of people, on this board and the PMQ think tank that can come in and train you how to run a wood-burning oven.  Come to Texas and I'll let you run mine for a week (free labor :))



Offline gabaghool

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2011, 03:12:38 PM »
Thank J
I think about coming down to Tex a lot.  The owner of DOUGH and I worked together here in connecticut. 

The problem with the output of a wood oven in my case is that I don't want to make Neo pizzas.  I want to make NY style pizzas, 12 inches and 18......in order to do that, the oven has to be run at a far lower temp than you would for a Neo pie.  You can kiss thos sub 2 min pies goodbye.

I do agree that a fire kissed pizza would taste a bit better.  I agree that there is a certain romance to a wood burning oven.  ANd I like the idea of working a wood burning oven far better than I like working a deck oven.  I've kind of soured on coal since I posted here originally.....

And those small openings in wood ovens can be a problem with and 18 inch pie, no?

Thank you for taking the time to post, I know how busy running two places can be...

Offline gabaghool

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2011, 03:16:22 PM »
David:
I must admit, I always thought of an electric oven as an option one uses to save money on opening.  But, in reading and researching I realize now that an electric oven is a viable choice....to some, THE CHOICE, in a deck oven...especially after reading about Apizza Scholls.

COuld you tell me WHY you prefer electric ovens?

Thanks for any help.

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Hi new here, need your educated opinions
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2011, 08:53:16 PM »
David:
I must admit, I always thought of an electric oven as an option one uses to save money on opening.  But, in reading and researching I realize now that an electric oven is a viable choice....to some, THE CHOICE, in a deck oven...especially after reading about Apizza Scholls.

COuld you tell me WHY you prefer electric ovens?

Thanks for any help.

electric are probably 95% conveyor, and counter-top deck.   i've only seen one or two large (over 36") electric deck ovens.  electric ovens produce a lower moisture product, in my experience, at lower temperatures. IF your model is large enough, you will not have thermal loss if you load the oven to max capacity. work with a hobart hec4018 long enough, and you'll learn all about load distribution. it's 40x18 inside the oven, 60k btu, but it just doesn't have the mass to the oven itself.

higher temps, electric aren't as fast to respond to the thermostat.   electric elements only get so hot, much less than flame and fire itself.  at 450ºf, there is no reason you can't produce a pizza in 5-6 mins, closer to 5 with deck and closer to 6-630 for a heavy loaded pizza, with conveyor.  also, electric usually need no hood due to combustion gasses.  they also, because of top elements, can be used as a prep and hold area for orders after they come out.   tops of the ovens can get hot enough on a busy night to visually see heat waves come off of them. 

personally, i like electric.   plug and go. and if you run out of power, they can be ran off of a generator or used on a foodcart
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.


 

pizzapan