41" low dome WFO build

[Jet_deck]

..... What was your recipe on these beauties? How much is too much .....

I used the FB 'Perfect dough by weight' suggestion. I used only 2 gr of (proofed) ady
500gr Molino Caputo Tipo 00 flour
325gr water (65% hydration)
10gr salt
3gr active dry yeast

The cold bulk refridgerated dough looked like a train wreck.  But after scaling and balling and the 4 hour warm up it felt soooo nice.

Yes I do love the perforated peel.

Thanks Scott D.

[Jet_deck]

I got to the upgrade last night.  Lowe's didn't have any steel lath.  Only galvanized or aluminum.  The aluminum could melt, the galv. probably would have been ok since it is on the exterior of the dome, but not worth the risk.  So I bought about 60' of small dog chain and weaved a pattern on the roof and applied the stuff to the dog chain lath. 

The high temperature insulation that was directly on top of the stainless dome showed zero signs of deterioration.  The regular Owens/Corning home insulation that was accidentally touching the stainless dome in a few places was snow white instead of pink.  But it wasn't crystalized or crispy or hadn't turned to powder.  I will cover the new refractory mortar with the insulation and cure it slowly, maybe this afternoon.

[satgan]

Jet Deck what happened with this oven. Do you cook a pizza, or what happened

[Jet_deck]

I have not cooked on it since I did the upgrade.   Maybe this weekend if all goes well

[Tampa]

Jet,
I'm a big fan of this thread, your oven(s), and pies.  The quote below is thought provoking.

Chau I believe that I can say that the authentic wfo pizzas are much better.  The propane pizzas just cant stand against these.  I don't have a good explanation, but you will see soon enough for yourself.

I like to think that heat is heat independent of the source: electric, propane, wood, coal, whatever.

Dave

[shuboyje]

Heat certainly is not heat.  In a wood fired brick oven you have a unique mix of all three forms of heat: convection, conduction, and radiation.  Those forms of heat in the proper places and distributions do not need to be generated by a wood fire, but emulating them via other heat sources is a major undertaking.  I think gas fired ovens in the style of fornobravo and stefano ferrara probably come the closest but nobody home building alternative ovens seems to go this route and I'm not sure I would recommend them trying without proper safety measures.  Wood is safe and simple, gas is not. 

[Tampa]

Jeff
I’m with you on the three heat forms, but what I was trying to say is that heat conducting from the pizza stone surface is the same independent of the heat source.  Similarly, radiation coming off of, say firebrick, is the same whether it was initially heated by wood or by gas.  Convection is a little more interesting as wood includes smoke and gas includes water vapor – but these differences seem like a second-order effects (to me).

I probably shouldn’t have made the remark.  I’m not trying to stir the pot here, I’m just trying to figure it out for myself (and maybe others considering oven tradeoffs).  For those interested, I can say that my neighbor, Bob, has a commercial electric oven and I have a propane-fired Franken-grill/oven.  We use the same dough recipe and I can’t see or taste any difference.  Similarly, another forum member was using mesquite wood chips in his oven to induce a smoky flavor.  I sent him a PM once and received a reply that he didn’t taste a difference.  YMMV.
Dave

[RobynB]

I'm always curious during these debates about the actual humidity of the various heat sources.  I have heard some people state that wood is a "drier" heat source than gas, but have also been told that wood puts out a lot of moisture and is NOT a dry source.  I guess there is probably a difference in natural gas vs propane?  I just know it was confusing when I was shopping WFO vs gas/propane pizza ovens before I settled on a WFO, as I had one source tell me wood heat is drier than gas and therefore better for pizza, and another source tell me the exact opposite, and a couple sellers tell me there is no difference in humidity of heat source while others said there was a dramatic difference.  I went with the WFO for a lot of reasons, but this question was never answered to my satisfaction.

[Jet_deck]

I probably shouldn’t have made the remark.  I’m not trying to stir the pot here, I’m just trying to figure it out for myself (and maybe others considering oven tradeoffs).  For those interested, I can say that my neighbor, Bob, has a commercial electric oven and I have a propane-fired Franken-grill/oven.  We use the same dough recipe and I can’t see or taste any difference.  Similarly, another forum member was using mesquite wood chips in his oven to induce a smoky flavor.  I sent him a PM once and received a reply that he didn’t taste a difference.  YMMV.
Dave

I'm glad that you commented on it.  I think it is important for someone to know what the exact performance of any heated device to cook pizza in, would be.
I feel less silly standing in front of the low dome build, stoking the fire with a barley pop in the other hand, than I would standing in front of the 10 stone with a barley pop in both hands.  Hope that helps.

[shuboyje]

In a wood fired oven you have conduction from the floor, radiation from the walls and dome, radiation from the coals(which is a hugely overlooked heat source IMHO), and convection from the fire.  I've never seen a oven other then a wood fired black oven that gets all of these.  Most lack either the proper convection, the radiation off the coals, or both.  It doesn't mean you can't make great pizza, just means it's not the same as cooking in a wood fired oven.  And again, complicated as some of us may make them, wood fired ovens are simple.  It's basically a pile of stone covered in a pile of insulation with a cavity inside for fire and pizza.  Much easier for the home builder to master then properly gas fitting safety shut-offs, installing high temperature convection fans, etc.  Biggest downside to wood fired ovens is the size they need to be to contain the fire and the pizza at the same time.  My old oven was 30" internal diameter and I felt that was just too small for example. 

Since my last post here I've been thinking and researching a bit on reverse engineering the Avanzini Drago burner which is the burner I mention earlier used in the best gas fired ovens.  A small easy to build or cheap to buy version of this could really change the landscape of home pizza ovens in my opinion because the oven only needs to be slightly larger then the pizza you want to cook.  There's only so much time in the day so if anybody else wants to take up that project feel free, lol.

Jeff
I’m with you on the three heat forms, but what I was trying to say is that heat conducting from the pizza stone surface is the same independent of the heat source.  Similarly, radiation coming off of, say firebrick, is the same whether it was initially heated by wood or by gas.  Convection is a little more interesting as wood includes smoke and gas includes water vapor – but these differences seem like a second-order effects (to me).

I probably shouldn’t have made the remark.  I’m not trying to stir the pot here, I’m just trying to figure it out for myself (and maybe others considering oven tradeoffs).  For those interested, I can say that my neighbor, Bob, has a commercial electric oven and I have a propane-fired Franken-grill/oven.  We use the same dough recipe and I can’t see or taste any difference.  Similarly, another forum member was using mesquite wood chips in his oven to induce a smoky flavor.  I sent him a PM once and received a reply that he didn’t taste a difference.  YMMV.
Dave

[Tman1]

I'm always curious during these debates about the actual humidity of the various heat sources.  I have heard some people state that wood is a "drier" heat source than gas, but have also been told that wood puts out a lot of moisture and is NOT a dry source.  I guess there is probably a difference in natural gas vs propane?  I just know it was confusing when I was shopping WFO vs gas/propane pizza ovens before I settled on a WFO, as I had one source tell me wood heat is drier than gas and therefore better for pizza, and another source tell me the exact opposite, and a couple sellers tell me there is no difference in humidity of heat source while others said there was a dramatic difference.  I went with the WFO for a lot of reasons, but this question was never answered to my satisfaction.

If you think about all the old houses that were heated with a wood stove, they all had a kettle or pot of water, on them to provide some humidity. It always seems dry in a cabin that only has a fireplace or wood stove heating it.
The moisture in improperly dried wood that is burned turns into black smoke and won't provide the same kind of BTU's a properly dried. It will be easy to spot wood that isn't dried properly when it's burning in the WFO.. you'll have a ton more smoke. Remember where you bought those logs from and do not give them repeat business.

With all this said, I'd rather Jet be working on his diving arm mixer.   

[Jet_deck]

....because the oven only needs to be slightly larger then the pizza you want to cook.... 

I saw those also.  Several big name oven builders use them for "additional heat" or "additional heat on demand"  But the ovens that people  are building with the conventional 'cajun burner' or turkey fryer burner, are building them only slightly larger that the pizza they want to cook already.  I see the benefit in a larger scale build.  But dam, it is going to take alot of propane...

[widespreadpizza]

Tman,  if I am not mistaken,  the reason for the teapot on the woodstove is that the large fires used lagre amouts of air for combustion that ended up going outside the house.   Add to that the loose construction of older houses and it was not hard at all for the makeup air to come in from outside.  It has to come from somewhere,  or you yould have negative pressure or no fire.  In the winter the relative humidity is usually very low.  Hence the dry air in the house and the need for teapot.  -Marc

[Jet_deck]

Warm air holds more water than cold air, No ?

[TXCraig1]

Warm air holds more water than cold air, No ?

Correct. Evaporation increases with temperature, but it has nothing to do with the ability of the air to "hold" water. It is about energy. Air does not "hold" water. Air is a mechanical mixture of gasses - the molecules merely occupy the same space. It is not like the concept of saturation in liquids.

CL

 

[shuboyje]

My opinion of the cajun style burner and it's use in LBE's is that it is like using dynamite to open your front door.  It works due to brute force, but is not the ideal or elegant solution.  I mean honestly using a burner with the same btu rating as your home furnace to cook a single 12" pizza in an oven that has about 20 pounds of thermal mass to heat is massive overkill, especially when it still cannot produce a 1 minute pizza.  I'm not knocking the eggs, I've stated recently in that thread how cool I think they are and how much I love the constant tinkering the builders do, but to me they are more of an upgrade from a home oven then a full on wood fired brick oven replacement, and I think most or their users would agree.  What I was proposing is an very small but traditionally build fully insulated black oven that has a small burner similar to the drago in it in place of a wood fire.  I actually like the idea so much I just may undertake it for a portable oven once my full size oven is done, lol. 

And just for clarification I love this type of conversation.  Nothing anybody says will offend me and I certainly do not intend to offend anyone else.  Intelligent debate is great for innovation, and I for one am always more then happy to be proven wrong if it means learning something new.  Sometimes I give off the wrong tone and people think I'm being argumentative so I wanted to put this out in the open, lol. 

I saw those also.  Several big name oven builders use them for "additional heat" or "additional heat on demand"  But the ovens that people  are building with the conventional 'cajun burner' or turkey fryer burner, are building them only slightly larger that the pizza they want to cook already.  I see the benefit in a larger scale build.  But dam, it is going to take alot of propane...

[Jet_deck]

... but it has nothing to do with the ability of the air to "hold" water.
CL
 

I have a friend that shreads textiles and sells them for oil rags.  They have found over the years, that slighlty moist textiles cut and shread better than dry ones.  It also applies when he bales the final product into 500# bales.  He brings the raw textiles in at about 7% moisture and shreads them at 12% moisture.  He likes to bale them at 14% moisture, it makes the press pump work less hard.  He uses an industrial humidification unit (a 5 million btu burner with the flame being sucked through a water spray)  He tells me that running the burner 100 degrees hotter will raise the percentage of the final humidity of the textiles by 5%.  So, I just figured hotter air can hold more water.

[TXCraig1]

He tells me that running the burner 100 degrees hotter will raise the percentage of the final humidity of the textiles by 5%.  So, I just figured hotter air can hold more water.

Yes, there will be more water in the air in this situation, but again, it is about energy. Increasing the energy (heat) in the water increases the vapor pressure of the water vapor and thus the amount of water vapor in the air. It doesn't do anything to change they physics of the gases that make up air. The oxygen and nitrogen that make up the majority of air have no more ability to hold water than water vapor has to hold oxygen and nitrogen. The merely share the same space.

CL

[Tampa]

shuboyje

radiation from the coals(which is a hugely overlooked heat source IMHO),

I think you are "right on" with this comment.  The heat flow for radiation is a function of the Temperature (in Kelvin) raised to the 4th power (as in squared, squared).  Rule of thumb, if the coals are 2x the dome temperature, they should radiate about 16x the heat.  This ignores the constant 273 degree adder to convert to Kelvin for both cases, but I still think it supports your point.

Good point comparing the bayou burner to a home furnace.  But love is blind, and when I first saw Villa Roma's youtube video and heard that burner roaring like a 747 during takeoff, I was in love.

Like you, I'm a fan of putting a spotlight on improvements.

Dave

[Jet_deck]

Before I test the new refractory roof today, I added a piece of stainless to the front of the oven to cover the bricks and insulation.  It looks much better....