My Journey into the Deep...

[RoadPizza]

Norma - thank you for posting the links.  I finally was able to watch them toss that Giordano dough.   In one of the other 2 videos, I think I also saw someone else toss the dough.  This is so fascinating to me as the only things I've read about DD crust here is that it's pressed out by hand and that it resembles a biscuit like pie crust, which is the reason I chose to roll out my previous dough. 

To be able to toss this type of dough is a real mystery to me as it seems to be in contrast from what I've learned.  A low hydration, low protein floured, and minimally kneaded dough doesn't tend to lend itself to opening in such a manner.  I would appreciate any possible explanations for this.

Thos 2 other videos are great as well.  I got 2 things out of those videos.  1) is that DD pizza (and pizza in general) is good b/c it's simplistic in nature.  It only has a few ingredients but it can come together incredibly well.  And 2) that it is possible to copy and improve upon an original.  Yes it's not an original, but it can be made better.   

Not wanting to start any DD wars here, but it's no accident all 3 judges chose Lou's to be the winner.  And it sounded like most of it came down to the TEXTURE of the tomatoes.  Outside of that, it sounded like both pies were really great. 

Chau

I do a Giordano's type DD.  The dough we use is our normal pizza dough - that's probably why they're able to toss it so easily in the video.

[norma427]

Chau,

I didn’t toss my dough for my Giordano’s stuffed crust, but the dough really rolled out easy.  If you look at the formula I used  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10018.msg87310.html#msg87310 and at Reply 116 that Peter had posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg69607.html#msg69607

I can see how the high oil percent could make the dough easy to twirl, even with the lower percent of hydration. 

Here I tried a Neopolitan-inspired Caputo deep-dish http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9880.msg85831.html#msg85831 and if you are interested at Reply 239 I also tried a Malnati Deep Dish with durum flour.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90089.html#msg90089 and reply 248 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90090.html#msg90090 That deep-dish also did turn out good. That formula also had a high oil percent. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90120.html#msg90120

I am going to revisit the deep-dish pizzas again this winter.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

To be able to toss this type of dough is a real mystery to me as it seems to be in contrast from what I've learned.  A low hydration, low protein floured, and minimally kneaded dough doesn't tend to lend itself to opening in such a manner.  I would appreciate any possible explanations for this.

Chau,

For your information, there is an entire thread on the Giordano's style pizza, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.0.html.

Although I have never had a Giordano's pizza, I did get some nutrition information from Giordano's that I used with other information posted by our members knowledgeable in the Giordano's style in an attempt to reverse engineer and clone a Giordano's pizza. Rightly or wrongly, I concluded that there was a fair amount of oil used in the Giordano's dough but not as much as other members were using. But I believe that the oil and its amount and how the dough skins are sheeted are all implicated in the answer to your question. While I posted on some of my results with the Giordano's clone dough, I did not post any specific dough formulation because I was not satisfied with my ability to come up with a dough formulation that was reproducible time after time. I did not want to lead our members astray with formulations that were not fully and accuratelly detailed and actionable. However, I still believe that it comes down to how much oil is used in the real Giordano's dough. Also, whatever rolling method is used in a home setting, such as using a rolling pin, has to simulate the way that Giordano's sheets its skins. I posted on this latter subject at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.100.html. Whether a minimally-kneaded dough can survive a trip through a commercial roller is an open question. If I had to guess, if the dough balls are cohesive, they are likely to make it through the roller successfully, particularly if some bench flour is used, as is the case at Giordano's.

Maybe one of these days I will revisit my past efforts and try again to make a Giordano's clone. I had been hoping that more useful information on the Giordano's style would come to light but, alas, that did not happen. That makes it difficult to try to clone a pizza you've never eaten before.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Norma and Peter for the links.  I quickly scanned those threads for recipes posted in baker's percents and IMO the % of oil is not that high for a DD pizza.   Those recipes listed a 16% oil.   The 2 pies I made were 24% and 20% and I felt that the 20% was a bit on the dry side.    Keep in mind, I didn't add additional oil into the pan on the 20% oil pie. 

Also, IMO it's not the high % of oil that allows for the dough acrobatics.  Even at 20% oil and a 50% HR, there is no way on God's green earth I could have even attempted to open the dough in normal NY pizza dough fashion much less toss it up or twirl it.    If order for the dough to be opened and handled like that it would need a higher % of water in the dough to help form the gluten bonds.   My dough as is, behaved very similarly to a pastry dough, this my decision to roll it out.  A commercial sheeter Peter?  No problem.   Tossing it up and hand opening - hmmm...not gonna happen. 

Road Pizza - thanks for the perspective.   I too am more incline to believe that the real Giordano's dough recipe is closer to NY style dough.  Maybe not as hydrated and with more oil, but definitely closer to that than the recipes we are using here.   Again, no way is anyone opening a 41% HR dough with 16% oil that way.  I'll be happy to be wrong, but I just can't see it. 

BUT....I'm not interested in reverse engineer a Giordano's pie.  I'm happy with this version of a Malnati's clone thanks to BTB.  I'll keep on this path for a bit tweaking here and there.   Thank you for the input.  It is much appreciated all.

Chau

[gtsum2]

DD looks good Chau!  I have made a few and they are a nice changeup to the normal ny style pie for sure.  I have been using corn oil (not even sure why...I found it in a few recipes here on the site).  I wonder what the difference in veg oil and corn oil is when making a DD?  I assume you only mixed the dough for a few minutes so as to not develop the gluten?

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

Over the years I have taken note of how much oil is used in doughs that are said to be deep-dish doughs, and the range of oil usage has been from about 8% to about 24%, although a few of our members have increased the high end even more. I agree with you that it would be impossible to toss a dough with 20% oil and 50% hydration and that is one of the reasons why I felt that the Giordano's dough used less oil than most members were using. When I have made the Papa John's clone doughs with about 7% oil, which is just below the low end of the above range, I found that the combination of the percent of oil and the hydration had to be around 62% for me to be able to toss and spin the skins without experiencing excessive extensibility. When I made the Giordano's clone doughs, the combination of oil and water by percent ranged from 60-64%, with the percent of oil ranging from about 11.9-13.3%. At those values, I had no problem rolling out the dough with a rolling pin and tossing the skins. What prompted my question to the Anets sales rep about using a dough roller to make a dough with a lot of oil was the possibility that my oil calculations on the oil usage were too low.

Peter