Quest for Pizza Pomodoro

[scott123]

Scott123,

Maybe we are on different pages for overfermentation of a “short-time” dough.  I haven’t made any before, so really I can't comment if I ever had overfermentation until this recent dough.  It didn’t look overfermented and didn’t need any punch down, but what I learned from doing experiments with long time fermented doughs, was the dough wanted to almost fall apart when opening the dough and also did feel like there were honeycombs in the dough.   That is how this recent dough felt when opening the dough.  If I wasn’t careful, I would have torn this dough in different places.  I should have taken a picture of the dough after it was opened, before I placed the toppings on.  Then you could have seen what the dough looked like.  If you look on the bottom crust pictures I posted, you can see the bottom crust wasn't even in different places.

I appreciate your insight.

Norma

Norma, what was the knead time on this dough?

[norma427]

Norma, what was the knead time on this dough?

Scott,

This dough was made to mix by hand quickly. It took one minute to mix this dough using a spatula.  This is where I posted how I made the dough.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.msg119876.html#msg119876

Norma

[scott123]

Norma, I think we found the culprit.  No knead breads all rely on the biochemical gluten formation that occurs during extended fermentation (at least 12 hours but ideally overnight) in order to develop proper gluten structure.  A six hour no knead recipe will give you something seriously gluten deficient- freakishly slack, incredibly hard to work with and with a propensity to open unevenly/tear.

I also believe that the high hydration (80%) of your typical no knead bread is important as well because it helps the dough form a homogeneous mass faster than when less water is added to the dough. Even with pre-sifted flour, a minute of mixing with a 62% hydration dough will most likely result in slightly undermixed dry and wet areas.  Undermixing is the kiss of death for structurally sound pizza skins that open without complications.

Although many no knead recipes don't state mixing times, imo, the better recipes will not only state longer than a minute, but will have you do one or two hand kneads just to make absolutely sure everything is well mixed- really well mixed. With my minimal kneading techniques, I'm constantly flirting with the threat of undermixing, so this topic is close to my heart. Hitting that perfect balance between dough that's completely homogeneous/thoroughly mixed while still not kneaded too extensively is no easy task.

Lastly, I'm seeing quite a few no knead recipes that re-ball shortly before baking.  This re-ball is just one more way in additional gluten development is added to the equation.

Without a doubt, your issue was gluten underdevelopment and had nothing to do with overfermentation.  The symptoms can be very similar, but weakened gluten from overfermentation occurs far longer down the road.

[Jackie Tran]

Chau, I took the term 'toothy' from you, but I think somewhere along the way, our definitions might have parted ways 

  That's hilarious b/c I thought  I was borrowing it from you.   This dough was overfermented at all but displayed that toothy crumb structure which  I thought I had read in a previous post somewhere that you had mentioned that it was a classic sign of overfermentation. 

The rim in reply #52 is strong, smooth and intact and shows absolutely no signs of gluten degradation/bumps/toothiness. Here's an example of what I believe to be toothiness:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10514.msg93760.html#msg93760

Scott thanks for redirecting me to my first pies posted on the forum.  They made me chuckle a bit as what I am making now is much different than that time.  My understanding of things has also vastly improve, in part thanks to your expertise.

Scott in reading more of your posts in this thread, I think  I understand what you are saying about the amount of dough expansion not necessarily correlating to overfermentation.  I have been experimenting b/t commercial yeast and naturally leaven dough and would concur.  It seems like I could proof up a dough to triple it's height using commercial yeast and the dough not display the signs of overfermenting where as this seems to not be true with a natural leavened dough. 

B/c my starters in general don't have as good leavening ability compared to commercial yeast, if I allow that dough to rise until to the same extent as an ady/idy dough, I would note a drastic difference in how the dough smells, springs up during the bake, and a drastically different crumb texture.  Not overfermented but maybe a lot closer than the ady/idy dough.    Any ideas as to what is going on in a naturally leavened dough that is so different than a commercially yeasted dough?

Another indicator that usually accompanies toothiness/overfermentation is a translucent quality on the tops of the bumps where the gluten has thinned out.  I'm not seeing too much in this particular example, so the overfermentation isn't extreme, but it's still a bit toothy none the less.

Are these the same relatively large fermentaion bubbles that tend to rise to the top in long fermented doughs?
like here...Reply #26
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12388.20.html
BTW, I am glad you are posting again.   I miss reading your imformative posts Scott. 

Chau

[Pete-zza]

scott123,

I re-read your posts on this subject, as supplemented by Norma's last post. Like you, I have tended to consider a dough to have overfermented when it has gone off the edge of a cliff, or is hanging by a gluten thread at the edge of the cliff. By that time, the protease enzymes have concluded their work and the dough can be wet and slack and hard to open up. I have intentionally driven some experimental doughs off the edge of the cliff just to see what the dough looked and behaved like. My experience was as you described in terms of the dough's performance except that I found that the residual sugars were too low to produce good crust coloration. I don't know if it was because the yeast had consumed most of the sugars, or if the acids and pH levels interfered with sugar extraction, but the finished crusts were light, almost white in some cases.

In retrospect, in the case of the short-time doughs that we have been discussing in this thread, I might have used the term "excessive fermentation" instead of overfermentation, but that may be a distinction without a difference. When I read what Tom Lehmann wrote on emergency doughs, I intentionally looked to see if he used the term "overfermented", or anything comparable, for the short-time doughs once they started to age. He did not. I think it is possible that he was thinking more along the terms of usability. That is, if the emergency dough were allowed to ferment too long, it would not be practical to use it as intended because of a damaged or degraded gluten matrix structure. In a home setting, rekneading or reballing the dough and letting it rest to recover might work, but that would take time and not be practical in an emergency dough situation where time is of the essence. So as not to waste an emergency dough that was not usable in the short term, Tom suggested using the dough to make skins that could be put in the cooler for use later in the day. That action would suggest that Tom did not deem the dough to be about to sustain a near-death experience where last rites would be administered.

Peter

[norma427]

I made another dough today and a pizza for this thread at market. This dough behaved a lot different.  I still don’t think this formula has a high enough thickness factor, but the pie turned out well. 

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I made another dough today and a pizza for this thread at market. This dough behaved a lot different.  I still don’t think this formula has a high enough thickness factor, but the pie turned out well. 

Norma,

Your pizza does look good. But why do you think that the thickness factor is too low? If you used more water, the total dough weight would increase and that would increase the thickness factor, but I have not run the numbers to be able to tell how much the thickness factor value would increase.

Out of curiosity, what is the metal of the pan you have been using?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Your pizza does look good. But why do you think that the thickness factor is too low? If you used more water, the total dough weight would increase and that would increase the thickness factor, but I have not run the numbers to be able to tell how much the thickness factor value would increase.

Out of curiosity, what is the metal of the pan you have been using?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the pizza looked good.  The reason I said I thought the thickness factor was too low was because the slice of pizza I ate from Sullivan St. Bakery was a little thicker. When opening this dough it sure looked drier than in the video when Jim Lahey was opening the dough. This pizza was good in my opinion and even some other customers that I gave some little slices to when they bought my regular preferment Lehmann dough slices said they really liked this type of pizza.  I even gave slices to the lady that has the pasta stand at market, that just was in Italy recently, and she even really liked this pizza.  She did give me a disk with some of the pictures of pizzas in Italy and I will post them probably tomorrow or Thursday.  I don’t know what is on the disk, because I haven’t looked at them tonight.  She was in Italy for 10 days and ate pizza everyday.  I will post those pictures under my thread, where I tried Paul’s flour.

I forgot in my last post to post a picture of what the dough ball looked like right after it was mixed.  I took so many pictures today, that the picture was in with my other pictures.

The pan I used was an old aluminum pan that I had for years, that was used to make candy apples. The pans are heavy aluminum. I have four of those pans and they do work well for baking cookies and now are also used at market to bake some of my other products. 

This pizza even had a nice crunch and a good taste in the crust.  I don’t know how this pizza could have a good taste in the crust, with such a short ferment time.  I didn’t post either that the finished dough temperature was 76.5 degree F and the ferment time was about 3 hrs. 20 minutes. This dough was fermented at the ambient room temperature of 67 degrees F.  The hole on top of the dough ball was where the temperature of the finished dough was taken.

Picture below

Norma

[norma427]

Two pictures of the pizza I made yesterday after the pie cooled down, that I forgot to post.

Norma

[RoadPizza]

Very nice, Norma.  I would have loved to taste that.

[norma427]

Very nice, Norma.  I would have loved to taste that.

RoadPizza,

Thanks for saying the pizza was very nice.  You also are very inventive in all your creations of dressings.    You could easily make this pizza in a small amount of time.  I used KABF flour. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

This pizza even had a nice crunch and a good taste in the crust.  I don’t know how this pizza could have a good taste in the crust, with such a short ferment time.

Norma,

The usual contributions of taste to a finished crust are the wheaty flavor of the flour itself, the yeast, the fermentation byproducts, oil in the pan (in this case), and caramelization/denatured protein/Maillard reactions. What I believe stands out from the normal in this case, apart from the short fermentation period, is the yeast. According to Professor Calvel in his book The Taste of Bread, at page 19, the taste of yeast is discernible in a French bread when it reaches 2.5%. I am sure that he was referring to fresh yeast, which was the yeast form that most of his recipes were based on. If we assume that the corresponding levels for ADY and IDY are roughly 1.25% and 0.83%, respectively, it is quite possible that your use of almost 1.9% IDY is what you were detecting in the finished crust. It could also have been the combination of the large amount of yeast and the baked effects of the oil in the pan.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

B/c my starters in general don't have as good leavening ability compared to commercial yeast, if I allow that dough to rise until to the same extent as an ady/idy dough, I would note a drastic difference in how the dough smells, springs up during the bake, and a drastically different crumb texture.  Not overfermented but maybe a lot closer than the ady/idy dough.    Any ideas as to what is going on in a naturally leavened dough that is so different than a commercially yeasted dough?

Chau,

One of the major effects that I noticed when I used natural leavening systems was the textural effects in the finished crumb. You could pull and tug the crumb and it would spring back when you released it. And there was a certain toothiness to the crumb that was different than crusts made from commercially leavened doughs. I think the explanation is that there are far more byproducts of fermentation with naturally leavened doughs than you will get with commercially leavened doughs, and it is these added byproducts of fermentation that affect the texture of the crumb. There are also antibiotic-type byproducts that help keep the pizza crust from staling as quickly as a normal bread. You perhaps eat your pizzas and breads long before staling can set in, but if you set one of your loaves aside sometime you might want to observe the anti-staling effect.

To the above, I might add that I observed similar textural effects using commercial yeast (IDY in my case) but it took a couple of weeks or more of cold fermentation to achieve those effects. And the effects were not as pronounced as when I used natural leavening systems. You have done a lot of work with short-term doughs using natural leavenings. Maybe you can advise Norma (or anyone else) on how she might be able to use a natural leavening system to make the Lahey short-term dough with even better results than she has gotten to date.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Peter in my limited experiments with bread and pizza dough, I have noted the anti-staling effects of a naturally leavened dough vs a commercially yeasted dough.   Jefferey Hamelman also discusses this in his bread book.   I believe he even says you get this type of anti-staling effect from a poolish made from commercial yeast.  I don't have the book in front of me but can look it up later. 

From just passive observations, I have noted a distinct difference in the keeping quality of bread that is made from a short ferment from commercial yeast vs a short ferment from a natural starter.   I have also noted differences between a young leaven (as Chad Robertson teaches in his Tartine book) and an active mature starter.   Mainly the young leaven tends to act more like a commercial yeast.  It does have improve keeping qualities over the commerical yeasted loaf but not significant.  I don't know if I can quantify it but it wasn't dramatic as compared to the differences b/t a starter loaf vs an IDY loaf.   

I have also gotten a similar textural and taste to a naturally leavened dough using ADY from a 4 day cold fermented dough.  That observation came from an experiment whereby I was attmepting to find a usable conversion factor for starts and ady.  I have done some experiments with using high % of starters and short ferment times as well and would be happy to help in anyway I can.   

Lately I have also been experimenting with using both a starter and IDY at different times in the same dough process to employ the benefits of both types of yeast.  If Norma or anyone else is interested in hearing about it, just let me know. 


Chau   

[norma427]

Norma,

The usual contributions of taste to a finished crust are the wheaty flavor of the flour itself, the yeast, the fermentation byproducts, oil in the pan (in this case), and caramelization/denatured protein/Maillard reactions. What I believe stands out from the normal in this case, apart from the short fermentation period, is the yeast. According to Professor Calvel in his book The Taste of Bread, at page 19, the taste of yeast is discernible in a French bread when it reaches 2.5%. I am sure that he was referring to fresh yeast, which was the yeast form that most of his recipes were based on. If we assume that the corresponding levels for ADY and IDY are roughly 1.25% and 0.83%, respectively, it is quite possible that your use of almost 1.9% IDY is what you were detecting in the finished crust. It could also have been the combination of the large amount of yeast and the baked effects of the oil in the pan.

Peter

Peter,

I believe you are right about the better taste in the crust because of so much yeast used in this formula. I know other thin crust formulas I tried before, never had much taste in the crust, even after much experimenting.  I can also see how the affects of the oil added to the taste of the crust. When I watched Jim Lahey’s video, I saw he said just to put enough oil on the pan to lightly coat the pan.  When Steve and I were making this pizza yesterday we weren’t sure how much to oil the pan, but went by Jim Lahey’s instructions.  The crust was crunchy with a little bit of crisp.  I don’t know what would have happened if more oil would have been added to the pan.

Thanks for your explanations.

Norma

[norma427]

 

Lately I have also been experimenting with using both a starter and IDY at different times in the same dough process to employ the benefits of both types of yeast.  If Norma or anyone else is interested in hearing about it, just let me know. 


Chau   

Chau,

I also did experiment one time with using a combination of starter and a commercial yeast in the same dough.  I did get good results, but want to try all my starter doughs just using them as the leavening system.  I would be interested in hearing about your experiments.

Norma

[hotsawce]

Going for a second attempt at the Al Taglio style pie. Moved the rack up one, 30% higher thickness factor. We'll see how it goes.

[norma427]

Going for a second attempt at the Al Taglio style pie. Moved the rack up one, 30% higher thickness factor. We'll see how it goes.

hotsawce,

Best of luck with moving your rack up one position and using a higher thickness factor.  I really haven't decided what thickness factor to try next.  I am anxious to hear your results.

Norma