Quest for Pizza Pomodoro

[hotsawce]

Well, it was another failure. Surprisingly, this is the pizza that has given me the most trouble of all!

It cooked slightly slower, but not by much. Maybe 11-12 minutes and it was certainly done....bottom VERY brown and that was moved up a rack. I might need to bake it on 450, or maybe the pan is too thin or conductive?

It's also sticking to the pan quite a bit (I oil just like I do my square pie and that doesn't stick...) and it's somewhat difficult to get it to spread evenly in a very large pan (13 x 18 is not easy to stretch in I find...)

I will conquer this sooner or later....I might have to move them temp down to 450! never thought I'd say that....

That being said, flavor combination was great. Straight up Marinara pie with Oregano and garlic. I think it was done right, because I didn't miss cheese at all. If I fail again...I'll be toying with my lodge cast iron pizza pan.

[jever4321]

That sounds like one of my favorite pies. It's just sauce, anchove, sprinkle of pecorino & romano cheese, and sprinke of basil/oregano. Salty - sweet combination rocks, and it reheats well.

[norma427]

Well, it was another failure. Surprisingly, this is the pizza that has given me the most trouble of all!

It cooked slightly slower, but not by much. Maybe 11-12 minutes and it was certainly done....bottom VERY brown and that was moved up a rack. I might need to bake it on 450, or maybe the pan is too thin or conductive?

It's also sticking to the pan quite a bit (I oil just like I do my square pie and that doesn't stick...) and it's somewhat difficult to get it to spread evenly in a very large pan (13 x 18 is not easy to stretch in I find...)

I will conquer this sooner or later....I might have to move them temp down to 450! never thought I'd say that....

That being said, flavor combination was great. Straight up Marinara pie with Oregano and garlic. I think it was done right, because I didn't miss cheese at all. If I fail again...I'll be toying with my lodge cast iron pizza pan.

hotsawce,

Sorry to hear your pizza didn’t turn out right.  I don’t know if it is your pan or not, that is giving you problems.  Each pan I own bakes differently.  I do have a good steel pan that is coated and that pan didn’t do a good job on different pies I baked.  The aluminum pan I used for this pizza is a really old pan and bakes much differently than other pans I have.  I might try my steel round deep-dish pan at some point for this type of pizza.  In the video Jim Lahey is using a steel pan.  I don’t know if that makes a difference or not.  This dough isn’t the easiest dough to open.  By the looks of the video and seeing Jim Lahey open the dough, his dough looks like it just spreads in the pan.  I found that this dough doesn’t spread easily in the pan on either of my attempts.  The first attempt I needed to roll the dough and then open it.  On the second attempt the dough ball first had to be formed into a rectangle, then pressed on, rolled, and then finished by opening by hand.  Jim Lahey says in the video not to oil the pan too much, that you can run your fingers though and see a line.  That is how my pans were oiled both times. What kind of oil are you using to oil your pans?  Jim Lahey says to use olive oil in the pan.   

I hope you can conquer this pizza.  Your choice of toppings sound great! 

Norma

[Matthew]

Well, it was another failure. Surprisingly, this is the pizza that has given me the most trouble of all!

It cooked slightly slower, but not by much. Maybe 11-12 minutes and it was certainly done....bottom VERY brown and that was moved up a rack. I might need to bake it on 450, or maybe the pan is too thin or conductive?

It's also sticking to the pan quite a bit (I oil just like I do my square pie and that doesn't stick...) and it's somewhat difficult to get it to spread evenly in a very large pan (13 x 18 is not easy to stretch in I find...)

I will conquer this sooner or later....I might have to move them temp down to 450! never thought I'd say that....

That being said, flavor combination was great. Straight up Marinara pie with Oregano and garlic. I think it was done right, because I didn't miss cheese at all. If I fail again...I'll be toying with my lodge cast iron pizza pan.

Try one more time at 500 degrees; this time start at the bottom rack & halfway through move to the top rack.   This is my method for baking pizza romana al teglia & it works perfectly. 

Matt

[hotsawce]

Norma - I'm using EVOO, and I don't think it's oiled too heavily. The pan is also aluminum, so it could be cooking far too fast. If Jim is using a steel pan, that might be why his bakes a bit longer. I've been doing fairly quick doughs until I can bake it properly, so I might use one with a preferment because those doughs always open incredibly easy for me. I just don't know why it's sticking so much....

Matt - I'll try that method. What material pan do you typically use? I had my pan in the very middle and it baked quickly, any higher and I'll be up under the broiler!

I want to get this pie right because it should be easy and tasty to make for parties or get togethers. Anyone else have suggestions?

[norma427]

Norma - I'm using EVOO, and I don't think it's oiled too heavily. The pan is also aluminum, so it could be cooking far too fast. If Jim is using a steel pan, that might be why his bakes a bit longer. I've been doing fairly quick doughs until I can bake it properly, so I might use one with a preferment because those doughs always open incredibly easy for me. I just don't know why it's sticking so much....

Matt - I'll try that method. What material pan do you typically use? I had my pan in the very middle and it baked quickly, any higher and I'll be up under the broiler!

I want to get this pie right because it should be easy and tasty to make for parties or get togethers. Anyone else have suggestions?

hotsawce,

I know Jim Lahey said to use EVOO, in making this kind of pizza.  So far I have only tried the Fillippo berio olive oil for sauteing & grilling in my experiments for this kind of pie.  You are right it might be the type of aluminum pan you are using.  I know of different aluminum pans I have used at home, they all bake different.  I know that some of my thinner aluminum pans would have burnt the pizzas I made so far.  I really can think of why your dough is sticking too much.  Maybe someone else can help you with that.

Matt’s suggestions sound very good.  I would like also to get this pie perfected.  It would be a pizza to be made quickly.

Best of luck. 

Norma

[Matthew]

Matt - I'll try that method. What material pan do you typically use? I had my pan in the very middle and it baked quickly, any higher and I'll be up under the broiler!

Hey guage anodized aluminum.  I brush the perimeter of the pan only very very lightly with EVOO, I never put any oil in the center of the pan.

Matt

[hotsawce]

I'll try all of those things. I really like the potential for this pizza and I want it to come out well.

Also, Norma, was your pizza almost crunchy? Mine was getting fairly tough with how brown it was on the bottom...I think it may be too much.

[norma427]

I'll try all of those things. I really like the potential for this pizza and I want it to come out well.

Also, Norma, was your pizza almost crunchy? Mine was getting fairly tough with how brown it was on the bottom...I think it may be too much.

hotsawce,

Yes, both pizzas I made were crunchy and a little bit crisp.  The pizzas I made weren't tough.

Norma

[norma427]

After giving some thought about how to make another attempt at a pizza something like Jim Lahey does and watching this video again, http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/-ready-video-jim-lahey-making-pizza-pomodoro.html  I decided to use another formula.

I upped the thickness factor and also the hydration. When watching the video posted on Slice, I saw how easily Jim Lahey opened the dough.  In my last attempts it wasn’t that easy for me to open the dough and I didn’t think the finished crust was thick enough.  I am going to be using another pan for my next attempt. I am going to be using my steel 17" deep-dish pan. 

If anyone thinks there is something that needs to be changed in the formula to get better results, let me know.  I am going to make another attempt tomorrow for a pizza like Jim Lahey makes.

Formula below

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I take it that the next try will be a round version of the Lahey recipe. Is that correct?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I take it that the next try will be a round version of the Lahey recipe. Is that correct?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, the next attempt will be a round pizza for a version of Jim Lahey's recipe.  I want to see how my round steel deep-dish pan bakes.  I had wanted to try a Greek Pizza this week in the well seasoned pan, but I have too many other experiments going this week for a Greek Pizza.  I might try a Greek Pizza next week. 

Do you think this is the best way to increase the crust thickness and also the handling properties of the dough for another attempt at a pizza like Jim Lahey's?  I am not exactly sure how to go about getting a little thicker crust and also to be able to open the dough better.  I don't know what the high amount of yeast will do to a larger dough ball.

Norma

[Jose L. Piedra]

Norma (and/or other interested people):

I was doing an Internet search on Roman pizza last weekend and, judging by my findings, in Rome this style of pizza is called "pizza rossa" at least as often as, indeed seemingly more often than, "pizza pomodoro". In any case, a Google search for "pizza rossa" turned up more results than I knew what to do with, and you might be able to find some illuminating info using the same search term.

JLP

[norma427]

Norma (and/or other interested people):

I was doing an Internet search on Roman pizza last weekend and, judging by my findings, in Rome this style of pizza is called "pizza rossa" at least as often as, indeed seemingly more often than, "pizza pomodoro". In any case, a Google search for "pizza rossa" turned up more results than I knew what to do with, and you might be able to find some illuminating info using the same search term.

JLP

JLP,

Thanks for telling the forum members what this kind of pizza is really called.    As Matt posted, this kind of pizza is mostly sold in bakeries.  I named this thread wrong, because I didn't understand enough Italian.     I will Google search for more information.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you think this is the best way to increase the crust thickness and also the handling properties of the dough for another attempt at a pizza like Jim Lahey's?  I am not exactly sure how to go about getting a little thicker crust and also to be able to open the dough better.  I don't know what the high amount of yeast will do to a larger dough ball.

Norma,

I don't see any problem with the way you are using the thickness factor. The dough ball will weigh more this time, not only because of the increased thickness factor, but also because you will be covering a larger surface area. For example, for the first experiment, the surface area of your rectangular pan was 170 square inches. This time, with your 17" round pan, it is 226.98 square inches. You may find it a bit harder to cover the 17" pan if the dough is highly extensible because you may have to stretch and tug the skin in more places to get it to conform to the circular geometry of your pan.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

If you watched the video that was posted on Slice that shows Jim Lahey opening his dough, do you have any idea what hydration that dough was by just watching him open the dough?  I didn’t increase the hydration by too much, but wondered what your opinion was if I should up the hydration more, to be able to open the dough better.  I don’t really think the amount of water is enough to have a dough open that easily.  I can easily change the formula if you think I need to adjust the water for this next attempt.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

If you watched the video that was posted on Slice that shows Jim Lahey opening his dough, do you have any idea what hydration that dough was by just watching him open the dough?  I didn’t increase the hydration by too much, but wondered what your opinion was if I should up the hydration more, to be able to open the dough better.  I don’t really think the amount of water is enough to have a dough open that easily.  I can easily change the formula if you think I need to adjust the water for this next attempt.

Norma,

In addition to the hydration, it might also be the temperature of the dough and the duration of fermentation at room temperature. Apparently the video was posted on You Tube on 2/17/10 (

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be5OENbfclY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be5OENbfclY</a>

), and ostensibly the video was taken at the Sullivan St Bakery. Even in winter, with the ovens nearby, no doubt the area where the pizzas were assembled was quite warm. If you look at the dough balls at 0:47 in the video, you can see that the dough balls, even in their flattened, slumped state, are quite gassy. In your case, you would perhaps have to have a comparable room temperature, or else let the dough ferment longer if it is cooler where you make your dough. If and when your dough ball looks like the ones shown in the video, that might signal the appropriate time to use the dough. I would try to handle the dough as gently as possible, so as not to degas it. You might also want to take note of the temperatures of the dough at different stages of its fermentation.

For now, I'd rather try to see if the dough can achieve the desired state without using a considerably higher hydration. If you don't get the desired results with your latest dough formulation, you always have the option of increasing the hydration in a future experiment. You could also use warmer water, with the objective of getting the dough to a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F.

The people in the video seem to be saying that the dough recipe for making the dough in the bakery is the same as that in Lahey's new book. Whether they are being too loose or casual on this point is hard to say, but for now I'd like to proceed on the basis that the recipes are the same or nearly so.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I saw in the video how gassy the dough looked.  When I mix the dough tomorrow, I will watch how the dough ball ferments and if need be, I can put the dough ball in the Hatco Unit. Maybe somehow I can get the dough ball fermented enough to look like Jim Lahey’s dough.  I might also try warmer water to mix the dough.

I will keep the same formula for this week.

Thanks for your advise.

Norma

[norma427]

This was my next attempt at a pizza something like Jim Lahey makes at Sullivan St. Bakery, with a higher hydration and also a higher thickness factor.

This dough was mixed by hand, and put right beside my deck oven, to ferment.  The dough ball sure didn’t take long to rise.  The dough ball was reballed after it had reached the top of the plastic container.  It rose very fast again, and even popped the lid off of the plastic container 4 times.  There wasn’t any hole in the lid of the plastic container.  When trying to open the dough ball it seemed really hard to open, and wanted to tear.  I left it rest different times and tried to open it more.  It was even left to proof in my steel deep-dish pan, with an inverted pizza pan and linen towels, for about an hour to see if it would proof better.  This dough sure didn’t feel like the hydration it was. It felt dry. I wonder why this dough felt so dry. The dough ball was very gassy.

The pie was dressed with herb infused olive oil, a little tomato sauce, mozzarella and grated Parmesan cheese, sweet potatoes, that I had sliced thin and left in some salt water before draining, onions,  rehydrated green and red peppers.  The combination of the dressings were good, but if I use this combination of dressings another time, I would add something with a little more heat. 

The finished pie did turn out good, with a crispy bottom. Even after the pie cooled down, there was a nice crispness in the crust.  The last picture was taken about an hour about this pizza was baked.

Another Santa came to visit us today. After I took a picture of him, he asked me to come so a picture could be taken of him and me.

This Jim Lahey's attempt was the 2nd of four experiments today.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma