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Offline jkuo010

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72 hours cold fermentation
« on: December 13, 2010, 03:55:01 PM »
Hello everyone,

I am new here so I am not sure if i am asking the right question.

My problem is the dough seems overferment at the first 24 hours, is it because too much yeast or too much bulk raise?  :-\
when bulk ferment, it seems expend very quickly and makes me think the dough will make it through 72 hours cold raise.

Here is my recipe:
1. Reactive ADY with 100F water for 10 minute and make sponge and ferment for 4 hours at 80F
3. Reactive ADY with 100F water for 10 minute and mix everything included sponge except salt at low speed for 2 minutes
4. Autolyse 30 minute
5. Mix yeast & Salt at mid-low speed for 5 minute
6. bulk raise 40 minute
7. fold it once
8. bulk raise 40 minute
9. into fridge for cold 72 hours ferment at 40F

Sponge
Flour                 57.0 g
Water               57.0 g
ADY                   0.3 g



Final dough
Flour                      57.0   g
Water                      28.0   g
ADY                      0.6   g
Salt         3.0   g
Dark Rye Flour      2.3   g
Sugar                     1.1   g
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 06:57:57 PM by jkuo010 »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 04:25:47 PM »
jkuo010,

There appears to be a disconnect between the dough formulation you posted and the instructions you gave. Unfortunately, the preferment dough calculating tool was not designed for the preferment application you described. Also, the preferment you disclosed is indicated to be a poolish (with equal weights of flour and water), not a sponge. I also am having a hard time understanding steps 5 and 6 in relation to the other steps in which you indicate you used the ADY.

If you can take your instructions and rewrite them in detail with the amounts of ingredients you used, we might be better able to review what you have done. However, just reviewing what you have done in a broad sense, I believe that you used too much poolish and also far too much ADY, and that combination was responsible for the overfermentation.

I also suggest that you read the section on poolish, with particular attention to the quantity of poolish to use, in the article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. You might also want to read the companion article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

If you got the recipe from another source, it might also help if you can tell us where you got it. A link the recipe would be especially helpful.

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 06:34:27 PM »
Hi Peter,

Sorry, i dont really know how to use that calculator.

please see my first post, i did revised the recipe.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 10:41:03 PM »
jkuo010,

I see that you edited your recipe again to change the preferment composition. Can you tell me how you came up with your dough formulation and what it is that you are trying to accomplish?

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 12:58:43 AM »
Hi Peter

Sorry for my poor English.  ;D

well, I am trying to use a sponge and 72 hours cold raise but I just can't find the right balance.

Also, I am trying to get a light and airy crust for my pizza.


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 06:59:03 AM »
My reaction is that there is entirely too much yeast, even for 72 hour cold ferment. You have .3 in your preferment which is mixed and bulked at high temp, and then you add another .3 in the final mix along with sugar and rye. But we need the source of your recipe for clarification.

Try NOT adding any more yeast in the final mix, and just use your preferment as the starter. It may go 72 hours without over fermenting.

John
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 11:18:45 AM by dellavecchia »

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 09:59:12 AM »
jkuo010,

No need to apologize for your English. I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you were doing so that my response would be more helpful.

I took what you posted and rearranged it as follows:

Total Formula
100%, Flour, 114g
74.56%, Water, 85g (57g + 28g)
0.7895%, ADY, 0.9g (0.3g + 0.6g)
2.63%, Salt, 3g
2.02%, Dark rye flour, 2.3g
0.965%, Sugar, 1.1g
Total weight = 206.3g

Poolish
100%, Flour, 57g
100%, water, 57g
0.526%, ADY, 0.3g
Total poolish weight = 114.3g
Note: Poolish is equal to 100.26% of the Total Formula flour, or 134.5% of the Total Formula water, or 55% of the total dough weight

Final Mix
Remaining Total Formula Flour, 57g
Remaining Total formula Water, 28g
Remaining Total Formula ADY, 0.3g
Salt, 3g
Dark rye flour, 2.3g
Sugar, 1.1g
Poolish, 114.3g

Looking at the above numbers, I agree with John that there is perhaps too much yeast for a prefermented dough that is to last for 72 hours. Also, at 114g, your poolish represents a far above average percent of the Total Formula water. If you read the Rosada articles I referenced, you will see that the recommended range for a classic poolish is 20-80% of the total formula water. You are at 134.5%. Your poolish is also too high relative to the total formula flour (100.26%) and the total dough weight (55%). At the levels you are using, you are likely to experience a lot of acid production that might overly strengthen the gluten matrix of your dough and make it hard to work with. The high hydration you are using, at 74.5%, is also likely to accelerate the prefermentation of the poolish and the production of acids. You might also find that you end up with inadequate crust coloration, although the dark rye flour might masquerade the color deficiency.

The amount of ADY you are using for the poolish is actually a bit on the low side but by using all of the rehydration water for the poolish at 100 degrees F, that has compensated for the smaller amount of ADY. You can calculate the recommended amount of ADY from the Rosada article referenced earlier (you will have to divide the amount of cake yeast, by weight, by 2). In your case, I would also rehydrate the ADY by using only a small amount of the poolish water at 100 degrees F and leave the rest of the poolish water at about 60 degrees F. I would use the same rehydration method for the ADY in the Final Mix.

At this point, you have a couple of options. You can reconfigure your dough formulation so that it conforms to the numbers used for a classic poolish, or you can reduce the amount of ADY as John suggested. However, just reducing the amount of ADY won't cure the otherwise unbalanced nature of your total formulation. if you want to proceed with your current dough formulation for experimental purposes, you can try reducing the amount of ADY to see if you get lucky and achieve satisfactory results. However, if that does not occur, you will perhaps have to go back to your starting dough formulation and modify it to fall more in line with the classic poolish numbers.

Whatever you decide to do, I hope you will come back to the forum and report on your results.

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 01:16:10 PM »
Peter,

Does acid production that might overly strengthen the gluten matrix makes crust dense and tough?

-Scott

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 02:12:31 PM »
Does acid production that might overly strengthen the gluten matrix makes crust dense and tough?

Scott,

Yes, it can result in a tightening of the dough that makes it harder to open up and creates extensibility issues. For some additional information on the effects of acids, I have quoted below from the second Didier Rosada article I referenced earlier in this thread:

The main advantage of the preferment is to bring all the benefits of fermentation to the final dough. As discussed in preceding articles, the fermentation process produces gas, alcohol, and acidity in dough. 

Gas, at this stage of the baking process, does not have the same importance as it does after mixing of the final dough. Dough at the preferment stage is not used to make the final product.  It is used to make the final dough that is used to make breads. 

Alcohol reacts with other substances during pre-fermentation to generate esters.  Esters are the aromatic component of bread and are very important in producing the flavor of the final product. 

Acidity plays a more important role than gas and alcohol at this stage.  It has three main effects on the dough and final product. The first effect is in the strengthening of the dough.  Acidity tightens up the protein and creates a gluten with higher elasticity. Adding preferment to the final dough decreases its pH which brings us to the second effect of acidity: Lower pH increases the shelf life of the bread by delaying the staling process and inhibiting mold growth. Finally, as a result of secondary fermentation, organic acids forms, producing aromas in the dough. Those aromas will be very important for the flavor of the final product.

When the quality of the flour is not optimal, the preferment can be a great help to bakers. As noted later in this article, some preferments can affect the strength of the dough as well as the enzyme activity.


and

If an excessive amount of preferment is added, the acidity level in the dough may be too high thereby reducing dough extensibility. A lot of factors such as the strength of the flour, hydration, and the type of preferment help to determine the quantity of preferment to use in the dough.

Through a series of baking tests, we can determine what is the right percentage of preferment.  Sometimes, practical considerations like floor space and/or production requirements are also part of the decision. Average amounts are listed in part one of this article.


Peter




Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 03:08:36 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for you advise about the pre-frementation

I just revised my recipe based on a sponge with total 50% of total water according to Didier Rosada article as followed:

The previous recipe was made up all by my self and that's why it's so unbalanced.  :P

I increased the hydration to 80% because I want to get a very light and airy crust but i am not sure if that will help tho.

Total Formula:                
Flour              100.00%   3.80   oz   107.7   g
Water              80.00%   3.04   oz   86.2   g
Salt                2.70%   0.10   oz   2.9   g
Dark Rye Flour   2.00%   0.08   oz   2.2   g
Total ADY         0.40%   0.02   oz   0.4   g
Sugar              1.00%   0.04   oz   1.1   g
Total              186.10%   7.07   oz   200.5   g
               
Preferment:                
Flour:                    60.00%   0.912   oz   25.9   g
Water:                    40.00%   0.608   oz   17.2   g
ADY                        0.35%   0.003192   oz   0.1   g
Preferment amount   50.00%   1.52   oz   43.1   g
                    
Final Dough:               
Flour:                      2.89   oz   81.9   g
Water:                      2.43   oz   68.9   g
Salt:                     0.10   oz   2.9   g
Dark Rye Flour          0.08   oz   2.2   g
Remaining ADY:       0.01   oz   0.3   g
Preferment:           1.52   oz   43.1   g
Sugar:                    0.04   oz   1.1   g
Total:                    7.07   oz   200.4   g
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 04:45:56 PM by jkuo010 »


Online Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 03:27:01 PM »
Scott,

The only way that you will learn if 80% hydration is too high is to try your dough formulation. However, in my home electric oven a dough with 80% hydration does not bake particularly well. Also, a dough with 80% hydration can be very difficult to handle if you will be using a peel to load the pizza onto a pizza stone in the oven. There are very few people that can work with doughs at 80% hydration. When I have made doughs with very high hydration values, I have formed the dough skins on parchment paper, which I then peeled onto my pizza stone after dressing the dough skins.

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 04:46:42 PM »
Scott,

The only way that you will learn if 80% hydration is too high is to try your dough formulation. However, in my home electric oven a dough with 80% hydration does not bake particularly well. Also, a dough with 80% hydration can be very difficult to handle if you will be using a peel to load the pizza onto a pizza stone in the oven. There are very few people that can work with doughs at 80% hydration. When I have made doughs with very high hydration values, I have formed the dough skins on parchment paper, which I then peeled onto my pizza stone after dressing the dough skins.

Peter

Peter,

What do you think about my new recipe? do you think it's gonna work?

-Scott

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 07:02:57 PM »
What do you think about my new recipe? do you think it's gonna work?

Scott,

Have you ever worked with an 80% hydration dough, for either bread or pizza, and especially pizza? And how do you propose to bake the pizza?

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2010, 07:37:40 PM »
Scott,

Have you ever worked with an 80% hydration dough, for either bread or pizza, and especially pizza? And how do you propose to bake the pizza?

Peter

i made bread with 80% hydration before.

what do you think about the re-calculated formulate of the preferment?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 07:54:37 PM by jkuo010 »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 07:49:54 PM »
I make pizza with 75-80+% hydration.  I deal with it by using pans for the first minute of the bake in the WFO, and for the entire bake in the kitchen oven.

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2010, 09:01:01 PM »
what do you think about the re-calculated formulate of the preferment?

Scott,

The numbers for your preferment look to be in order. The preferment is a bit wetter than a sponge preferment but not enough to pose a problem.

Out of curiosity, how do you propose to measure out the minuscule amounts of ADY?

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 10:12:12 PM »
Scott,

The numbers for your preferment look to be in order. The preferment is a bit wetter than a sponge preferment but not enough to pose a problem.

Out of curiosity, how do you propose to measure out the minuscule amounts of ADY?

Peter

I will probably make 2 or more pizzas at once.

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2010, 10:33:26 PM »
Here is my new experiment:

one started on 12/14 and the other one started today.

Total Formula:                14-DEC
Flour   100.00%   3.70   oz   104.9   g
Water    80.00%   2.96   oz   83.9   g
Salt    2.70%   0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour   2.00%   0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ   0.96%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total ADY    0.30%   0.01   oz   0.3   g
Sugar    1.00%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total    186.96%   6.92   oz   196.1   g
               
Preferment:                
Flour:    60.00%   0.888   oz   25.2   g
Water:    40.00%   0.592   oz   16.8   g
ADY   0.70%   0.006216   oz   0.2   g
   50.00%   1.48         
Preferment amount   50.00%   1.49   oz   42.1   g
               
Final Dough:               
Flour:       2.81   oz   79.7   g
Water:       2.37   oz   67.1   g
Salt:       0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour      0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ      0.04   oz   1.0   g
Remaining ADY:       0.00   oz   0.1   g
Preferment:       1.48   oz   42.0   g
Sugar:       0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total:       6.91   oz   195.9   g
               
Total Formula:                15-DEC
Flour   100.00%   3.70   oz   104.9   g
Water    80.00%   2.96   oz   83.9   g
Salt    2.70%   0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour   2.00%   0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ   0.96%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total ADY    0.30%   0.01   oz   0.3   g
Sugar    1.00%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total    186.96%   6.92   oz   196.1   g
               
Preferment:                
Flour:    50.00%   0.74   oz   21.0   g
Water:    50.00%   0.74   oz   21.0   g
ADY   0.70%   0.00518   oz   0.1   g
   50.00%   1.48         
Preferment amount   50.00%   1.49   oz   42.1   g
               
Final Dough:               
Flour:       2.96   oz   83.9   g
Water:       2.22   oz   62.9   g
Salt:       0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour      0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ      0.04   oz   1.0   g
Remaining ADY:       0.01   oz   0.2   g
Preferment:       1.48   oz   42.0   g
Sugar:       0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total:       6.91   oz   196.0   g

I will post the final result ASAP.

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2010, 01:49:37 AM »
Ok Guys

I made a pizza today but the crust was dense and tough, does any one have a clue what cause the crust dense and tough?



Total Formula:                14-DEC
Flour   100.00%   3.70   oz   104.9   g
Water    80.00%   2.96   oz   83.9   g
Salt    2.70%   0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour   2.00%   0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ   0.96%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total ADY    0.30%   0.01   oz   0.3   g
Sugar    1.00%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total    186.96%   6.92   oz   196.1   g
               
Preferment:               
Flour:    60.00%   0.888   oz   25.2   g
Water:    40.00%   0.592   oz   16.8   g
ADY   0.70%   0.006216   oz   0.2   g
   50.00%   1.48         
Preferment amount   50.00%   1.49   oz   42.1   g
               
Final Dough:               
Flour:       2.81   oz   79.7   g
Water:       2.37   oz   67.1   g
Salt:       0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour      0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ      0.04   oz   1.0   g
Remaining ADY:       0.00   oz   0.1   g
Preferment:       1.48   oz   42.0   g
Sugar:       0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total:       6.91   oz   195.9   g

Offline norma427

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2010, 08:24:53 AM »
Ok Guys

I made a pizza today but the crust was dense and tough, does any one have a clue what cause the crust dense and tough?


Scott,

I don't know if I can help you with the crust being dense and tough, but could you tell me how you went about mixing your dough and what protocols you did with your dough, (bulk rise, end rise time, any stretch and folds, or reballing the dough, etc.)?

Norma
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