72 hours cold fermentation

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

I agree with Norma that we need a lot more information. However, your sponge preferment is in the normal range of 20-80% of the total formula water. And, even if we add the rye flour and wheat germ to the basic flour and recalculate the total formulat hydration, it is still around 78%. So, the denseness and toughness in the final crust shouldn't be because of underhydration.

I personally prefer a poolish preferment but I have done some experimentation with a sponge or quasi-sponge preferment, with a typical example being described in Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814. In that case, I used Tom Lehmann's preferment calculations and not those recommended by Didier Rosada. If you reread the first Rosada article, you will note that he mentions that the lower hydration of a sponge preferment means that it will ferment more slowly than a poolish and, because of the stiffer consistency of the sponge, it will strengthen the final dough, which may penalize extensibility. Once you report back with more detail, maybe we can identify the source of your problems.

Peter

[jkuo010]

Scott,

I don't know if I can help you with the crust being dense and tough, but could you tell me how you went about mixing your dough and what protocols you did with your dough, (bulk rise, end rise time, any stretch and folds, or reballing the dough, etc.)?

Norma

1. mix at low speed for 2 minfor the remaining ingredients except salt.
2. Autolyse 30 min
3. add sponge, yeast and mix at med-low speed for 2 min
4. add salt and mix for another 3 min
5. bulk rise 30 min and then fold it once
6. bulk rise again for another 30 min
7. ball it and send it into fridge for 72 hours rise
8. warm up 2 hours at room temp before baking
(the oven i used is a bottom heater and I will pre-heat oven for 1 hour at 550F with one stone)

[norma427]

1. mix at low speed for 2 minfor the remaining ingredients except salt.
2. Autolyse 30 min
3. add sponge, yeast and mix at med-low speed for 2 min
4. add salt and mix for another 3 min
5. bulk rise 30 min and then fold it once
6. bulk rise again for another 30 min
7. ball it and send it into fridge for 72 hours rise
8. warm up 2 hours at room temp before baking
(the oven i used is a bottom heater and I will pre-heat oven for 1 hour at 550F with one stone)

Scott,

Thanks for your reply about what protocol you use to make your dough.  I have only be making a high hydration doughs for a short time, but I can see that maybe they need to be mixed longer or maybe have more reballing or stretch and folds, to be able to obtain good oven spring.  From my experiments so far, this has given me good results when cold fermenting the dough for 5 days.  I am using a natural poolish preferment in my doughs, and I am having some problems with coloration in some of my finished pizzas, but I am not having problems with oven spirng. I don’t know if any of these ideas will help your pizzas get more oven spring or not.

What do your dough balls look like, after the 72 hrs. of cold fermentation. Are there any bubbles on the top of your dough balls and are there many bubbles on the bottom of your dough balls?

I will also wait to see what Peter has to say about your protocol.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

I'd like to know how you prepare the sponge, including water temperature, fermentation temperature and time, and how you know when to use it to make the final dough.

Peter

[jkuo010]

Scott,

I'd like to know how you prepare the sponge, including water temperature, fermentation temperature and time, and how you know when to use it to make the final dough.

Peter

Peter,

to make the sponge, I use 100F water to dissolve ADY for 10 Minute and then mix with flour and then sit at my oven with light on (80F) for 4 hours.

-Scott

[jkuo010]

Scott,

Thanks for your reply about what protocol you use to make your dough.  I have only be making a high hydration doughs for a short time, but I can see that maybe they need to be mixed longer or maybe have more reballing or stretch and folds, to be able to obtain good oven spring.  From my experiments so far, this has given me good results when cold fermenting the dough for 5 days.  I am using a natural poolish preferment in my doughs, and I am having some problems with coloration in some of my finished pizzas, but I am not having problems with oven spirng. I don’t know if any of these ideas will help your pizzas get more oven spring or not.

What do your dough balls look like, after the 72 hrs. of cold fermentation. Are there any bubbles on the top of your dough balls and are there many bubbles on the bottom of your dough balls?

I will also wait to see what Peter has to say about your protocol.

Norma

Here is what the dough look like when it's at around 60 hours

[jkuo010]

Here is what the dough look like when it's at around 60 hours

here is the dough skin

[jkuo010]

By the way, I used to make pizza with same recipe without and preferment with 48 hours rise. The crust has no oven spring or dense and tough problem.

[norma427]

Scott,

Thanks for pictures of how your dough balls looks at around 60 hrs.  To me the dough did look ready to used at 60 hrs.  I really don’t use a lot of rye flours or wheat germs in my doughs, but found when using whole wheat flours in dough there were more problems with oven spring and a denser crust.  Do you know what the combined protein there is in the rye flour you are using and also the wheat germ.  I would think that with these protein percents combined, those could be affecting gluten development if the proper mixing times aren’t appropriate.  Gluten chains are important, but if the gluten bonds get too strong, I would think that also could make a more dense crust with less oven spring. Maybe the preferment with the rye flour in combination with the added wheat germ and rye flour are affecting your extensibility. Maybe you even may need to try a lower amount of preferment in your dough.

I am not a dough expert, so I will wait to see what Peter has to say.  He knows a lot more about flour and how protein content can affect doughs.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

Your dough formulation is for a very small amount of dough, just under 7 ounces. How many dough balls did you make? And, in making the sponge, did you use all of the sponge water at 100 degrees F and did you look for the break point? The break point is where the sponge peaks and then falls back onto itself.

I'd also like to know what size pizza you made with the roughly 7 ounces of dough, and at what temperature you baked the pizza and for how long. I assume you used the pizza stone to bake the pizza.

The rye flour and wheat germ collectively represent only a small percent of the total dough weight, about 1.6%. I'd be surprised that that small amount would be the cause of the toughness of the finished crust that you mentioned.

Peter

[jkuo010]

Scott,

Your dough formulation is for a very small amount of dough, just under 7 ounces. How many dough balls did you make? And, in making the sponge, did you use all of the sponge water at 100 degrees F and did you look for the break point? The break point is where the sponge peaks and then falls back onto itself.

I'd also like to know what size pizza you made with the roughly 7 ounces of dough, and at what temperature you baked the pizza and for how long. I assume you used the pizza stone to bake the pizza.

The rye flour and wheat germ collectively represent only a small percent of the total dough weight, about 1.6%. I'd be surprised that that small amount would be the cause of the toughness of the finished crust that you mentioned.

Peter

Peter,
I dont think the weat germ and rye flour would make the crust dense and tough because i have always use them for my recipe and it was no problem with the oven spring and the crust was not that dense and tough. I make 10 inch pizza with one 7oz dough and bake at 550F for about 5-6 min.

For the sponge, I did use all of the sponge water at 100F water and ferment about 4 hours (80F) which the sponge at it's peaks but i am not sure it did falls back onto itself tho.

p.s: the flour i used was Mello Judith Baker's Flour which content about 11.9% of protein.

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

And how many dough balls did you make?

Peter

[jkuo010]

Scott,

And how many dough balls did you make?

Peter

just one.

[jkuo010]

Peter,

Here is a good example of my goal. the crust in the picture was very light and airy with big air hole in the crust but I am not sure if a WFO would make a big difference compare to my home oven if both dough dough are made with the same recipe.

-Scott

[jkuo010]

Peter,

Here is a good example of my goal. the crust in the picture was very light and airy with big air hole in the crust but I am not sure if a WFO would make a big difference compare to my home oven if both dough dough are made with the same recipe.

-Scott

inside the crumb.

[jkuo010]

inside the crumb.

another one.

[Pete-zza]

Scott,

Are the photos you posted of a pizza you have made or is it an example of what you would like to achieve? If it is an example, what can you tell us about the dough formulation and how the pizza was baked? If you made the pizza, what was the dough formulation?

You also indicated that you made a non-prefermented dough without any problem. Was that a dough with a hydration of around 80%?

Are you in a position to make a pizza larger than 10"?

Peter

[jkuo010]

Scott,

Are the photos you posted of a pizza you have made or is it an example of what you would like to achieve? If it is an example, what can you tell us about the dough formulation and how the pizza was baked? If you made the pizza, what was the dough formulation?

You also indicated that you made a non-prefermented dough without any problem. Was that a dough with a hydration of around 80%?

Are you in a position to make a pizza larger than 10"?

Peter

Peter,
that is what i am trying to achieve and the formulation they used are same as my recipe. I believe they bake pizza at 600-700F temp in WFO for abut 4 minute.

The hydration for my previous pizzas was about 70%.

with a 7 oz ball, Yes, i think i could make a larger pizza with no problem.

[Pete-zza]

that is what i am trying to achieve and the formulation they used are same as my recipe. I believe they bake pizza at 600-700F temp in WFO for abut 4 minute.

Scott,

Who is they?

Peter

[Pete-zza]

just one.

Scott,

Out of curiosity, how did you measure out the yeast for the sponge and the final dough? You previously said that you would make more dough and that would handle the issue of measuring out minuscule amounts of yeast.

Peter