Author Topic: 72 hours cold fermentation  (Read 9220 times)

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Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2010, 04:34:58 PM »
Scott,

Thanks for your reply about what protocol you use to make your dough.  I have only be making a high hydration doughs for a short time, but I can see that maybe they need to be mixed longer or maybe have more reballing or stretch and folds, to be able to obtain good oven spring.  From my experiments so far, this has given me good results when cold fermenting the dough for 5 days.  I am using a natural poolish preferment in my doughs, and I am having some problems with coloration in some of my finished pizzas, but I am not having problems with oven spirng. I donít know if any of these ideas will help your pizzas get more oven spring or not.

What do your dough balls look like, after the 72 hrs. of cold fermentation. Are there any bubbles on the top of your dough balls and are there many bubbles on the bottom of your dough balls?

I will also wait to see what Peter has to say about your protocol.

Norma

Here is what the dough look like when it's at around 60 hours


Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2010, 04:36:02 PM »
Here is what the dough look like when it's at around 60 hours
here is the dough skin

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2010, 04:51:19 PM »
By the way, I used to make pizza with same recipe without and preferment with 48 hours rise. The crust has no oven spring or dense and tough problem.

Offline norma427

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2010, 06:10:37 PM »
Scott,

Thanks for pictures of how your dough balls looks at around 60 hrs.  To me the dough did look ready to used at 60 hrs.  I really donít use a lot of rye flours or wheat germs in my doughs, but found when using whole wheat flours in dough there were more problems with oven spring and a denser crust.  Do you know what the combined protein there is in the rye flour you are using and also the wheat germ.  I would think that with these protein percents combined, those could be affecting gluten development if the proper mixing times arenít appropriate.  Gluten chains are important, but if the gluten bonds get too strong, I would think that also could make a more dense crust with less oven spring. Maybe the preferment with the rye flour in combination with the added wheat germ and rye flour are affecting your extensibility. Maybe you even may need to try a lower amount of preferment in your dough.

I am not a dough expert, so I will wait to see what Peter has to say.  He knows a lot more about flour and how protein content can affect doughs.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2010, 06:32:47 PM »
Scott,

Your dough formulation is for a very small amount of dough, just under 7 ounces. How many dough balls did you make? And, in making the sponge, did you use all of the sponge water at 100 degrees F and did you look for the break point? The break point is where the sponge peaks and then falls back onto itself.

I'd also like to know what size pizza you made with the roughly 7 ounces of dough, and at what temperature you baked the pizza and for how long. I assume you used the pizza stone to bake the pizza.

The rye flour and wheat germ collectively represent only a small percent of the total dough weight, about 1.6%. I'd be surprised that that small amount would be the cause of the toughness of the finished crust that you mentioned.

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2010, 08:11:37 PM »
Scott,

Your dough formulation is for a very small amount of dough, just under 7 ounces. How many dough balls did you make? And, in making the sponge, did you use all of the sponge water at 100 degrees F and did you look for the break point? The break point is where the sponge peaks and then falls back onto itself.

I'd also like to know what size pizza you made with the roughly 7 ounces of dough, and at what temperature you baked the pizza and for how long. I assume you used the pizza stone to bake the pizza.

The rye flour and wheat germ collectively represent only a small percent of the total dough weight, about 1.6%. I'd be surprised that that small amount would be the cause of the toughness of the finished crust that you mentioned.

Peter

Peter,
I dont think the weat germ and rye flour would make the crust dense and tough because i have always use them for my recipe and it was no problem with the oven spring and the crust was not that dense and tough. I make 10 inch pizza with one 7oz dough and bake at 550F for about 5-6 min.

For the sponge, I did use all of the sponge water at 100F water and ferment about 4 hours (80F) which the sponge at it's peaks but i am not sure it did falls back onto itself tho.

p.s: the flour i used was Mello Judith Baker's Flour which content about 11.9% of protein.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2010, 08:25:55 PM »
Scott,

And how many dough balls did you make?

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2010, 08:36:56 PM »
Scott,

And how many dough balls did you make?

Peter

just one.

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2010, 08:37:54 PM »
Peter,

Here is a good example of my goal. the crust in the picture was very light and airy with big air hole in the crust but I am not sure if a WFO would make a big difference compare to my home oven if both dough dough are made with the same recipe.

-Scott


Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2010, 08:38:50 PM »
Peter,

Here is a good example of my goal. the crust in the picture was very light and airy with big air hole in the crust but I am not sure if a WFO would make a big difference compare to my home oven if both dough dough are made with the same recipe.

-Scott

inside the crumb.

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2010, 08:40:14 PM »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2010, 08:53:23 PM »
Scott,

Are the photos you posted of a pizza you have made or is it an example of what you would like to achieve? If it is an example, what can you tell us about the dough formulation and how the pizza was baked? If you made the pizza, what was the dough formulation?

You also indicated that you made a non-prefermented dough without any problem. Was that a dough with a hydration of around 80%?

Are you in a position to make a pizza larger than 10"?

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2010, 09:01:53 PM »
Scott,

Are the photos you posted of a pizza you have made or is it an example of what you would like to achieve? If it is an example, what can you tell us about the dough formulation and how the pizza was baked? If you made the pizza, what was the dough formulation?

You also indicated that you made a non-prefermented dough without any problem. Was that a dough with a hydration of around 80%?

Are you in a position to make a pizza larger than 10"?

Peter

Peter,
that is what i am trying to achieve and the formulation they used are same as my recipe. I believe they bake pizza at 600-700F temp in WFO for abut 4 minute.

The hydration for my previous pizzas was about 70%.

with a 7 oz ball, Yes, i think i could make a larger pizza with no problem.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2010, 09:03:36 PM »
that is what i am trying to achieve and the formulation they used are same as my recipe. I believe they bake pizza at 600-700F temp in WFO for abut 4 minute.

Scott,

Who is they?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2010, 09:14:29 PM »
just one.

Scott,

Out of curiosity, how did you measure out the yeast for the sponge and the final dough? You previously said that you would make more dough and that would handle the issue of measuring out minuscule amounts of yeast.

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2010, 09:29:03 PM »
Scott,

Out of curiosity, how did you measure out the yeast for the sponge and the final dough? You previously said that you would make more dough and that would handle the issue of measuring out minuscule amounts of yeast.

Peter

Yeah, but i just try to measuring it out without with my eyes :P cuz just dont want to waste too much flour tho.... :P

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2010, 09:30:20 PM »
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 01:56:02 PM by jkuo010 »


Offline norma427

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2010, 09:50:18 PM »
Pizzeria Mozza

Scott,

Is the formula you are trying for Pizza Mozza, something like this one on the web? http://easy.betterrecipes.com/pizzeria-mozza-pizza-dough.html

Norma

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2010, 09:56:01 PM »
Scott,

Is the formula you are trying for Pizza Mozza, something like this one on the web? http://easy.betterrecipes.com/pizzeria-mozza-pizza-dough.html

Norma

yup, but it's a 3 hours dough and it's impossible to make it as good as the real one but i am sure they use preferment.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 09:58:47 PM by jkuo010 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2010, 10:19:24 PM »
Scott,

Now the picture is getting clearer.

After looking over the last dough formulation you posted, actually several times, I could not see anything fundamentally wrong with it except that the hydration seemed high for a home oven application and I wondered how you would measure out the minuscule amounts of yeast. I have made doughs with trivial amounts of yeast many times and I have had to use a set of mini measuring spoons such as shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. For your single dough ball, the total formula ADY comes to about 5/64ths of a teaspoon, or a bit over 5 "drops". The ADY for the sponge comes to a bit less than 3 1/2 drops, and the ADY for the final mix comes to a bit more than 1 1/2 drops.

Your single dough ball weight of 6.91 ounces, when used to make a 10" pizza, translates to a thickness factor of 6.91/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.08798. That corresponds to a typical thickness factor that is used to make a New York style pizza. I assume that Pizzeria Mozza makes 10" pizzas and you were trying to do the same. Is that correct?

My best guess is that your oven and the dough formulation are not properly matched. It is also not axiomatic that using a very high hydration value will always translate into an above average oven spring with a light, open and airy interior crumb and a crispy exterior. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a very high hydration dough does not do especially well in my home electric oven. A good example of what I had in mind when I made that comment can be seen in Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.msg69521.html#msg69521. You can see another example at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8476.msg73691.html#msg73691. It can take a lot of heat to "lift" the very highly hydrated dough so that you get the amount of steam needed to produce a really good oven spring. My oven in its unmodified form apparently falls short in that capability. Also, if you decide to let the pizza bake longer, you will usually end up with a dryer crust that can be quite chewy and even cracker-like in parts. That may also help explain why you got good crust coloration, through caramelization and Maillard reactions.

In your case, you might try using a lower total formula hydration and convert the dough formulation to a new sponge format. You might also want to either invest in a set of mini measuring spoons or else make a larger dough batch such that you can use normal measuring spoons to measure out the ADY. In that case, you should use only a small amount of the sponge water to rehydrate the ADY at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes.

If you proceed along the above lines, I hope that you will come back and let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2010, 12:56:41 AM »
Scott,

Now the picture is getting clearer.

After looking over the last dough formulation you posted, actually several times, I could not see anything fundamentally wrong with it except that the hydration seemed high for a home oven application and I wondered how you would measure out the minuscule amounts of yeast. I have made doughs with trivial amounts of yeast many times and I have had to use a set of mini measuring spoons such as shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5583.msg47264.html#msg47264. For your single dough ball, the total formula ADY comes to about 5/64ths of a teaspoon, or a bit over 5 "drops". The ADY for the sponge comes to a bit less than 3 1/2 drops, and the ADY for the final mix comes to a bit more than 1 1/2 drops.

Your single dough ball weight of 6.91 ounces, when used to make a 10" pizza, translates to a thickness factor of 6.91/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.08798. That corresponds to a typical thickness factor that is used to make a New York style pizza. I assume that Pizzeria Mozza makes 10" pizzas and you were trying to do the same. Is that correct?

My best guess is that your oven and the dough formulation are not properly matched. It is also not axiomatic that using a very high hydration value will always translate into an above average oven spring with a light, open and airy interior crumb and a crispy exterior. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a very high hydration dough does not do especially well in my home electric oven. A good example of what I had in mind when I made that comment can be seen in Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.msg69521.html#msg69521. You can see another example at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8476.msg73691.html#msg73691. It can take a lot of heat to "lift" the very highly hydrated dough so that you get the amount of steam needed to produce a really good oven spring. My oven in its unmodified form apparently falls short in that capability. Also, if you decide to let the pizza bake longer, you will usually end up with a dryer crust that can be quite chewy and even cracker-like in parts. That may also help explain why you got good crust coloration, through caramelization and Maillard reactions.

In your case, you might try using a lower total formula hydration and convert the dough formulation to a new sponge format. You might also want to either invest in a set of mini measuring spoons or else make a larger dough batch such that you can use normal measuring spoons to measure out the ADY. In that case, you should use only a small amount of the sponge water to rehydrate the ADY at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes.

If you proceed along the above lines, I hope that you will come back and let us know how things turn out.

Peter

But i would use some flour to fix it until the dough starts to pull away from the sides of the bowl, I would say 4-5 teaspoon of flour.

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2010, 01:03:31 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for your reply.
If I make a 30-40% sponge based on total water weight and let it sit for 4-5 hours at 80F, plus a 72 hours cold rise, my question is, will that creats a lot od acid and tighten up the gluten?

-Scott

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2010, 01:25:36 AM »
Anyhow, I am trying 10% sponge and a total 65% hydration and we will see hows it come out.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2010, 10:39:51 AM »
Scott,

At this point, I don't think that the problem is too much acid production and strengthening of the dough. Consequently, I don't see why you should go from a 50% sponge (as a percent of the total formula water) to 10%. I would rather try a lower hydration and see how that works in your oven before modifying the dough formulation. If you change too many things at one time you will not be able to isolate their respective effects on the dough and pizza.

BTW, is the recipe you last posted an authentic Pizzeria Mozza recipe or are you taking the recipe that Norma referenced, or one similar to it that you found on the Internet or elsewhere, and trying to come up with a preferment version to emulate what Pizzeria Mozza does?

Peter

Offline jkuo010

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Re: 72 hours cold fermentation
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »
Peter,

Is it over ferment?
the dough received a 1 hour room temp bulk rise with one fold and then a 72 hours cold rise.  the dough got a big bubble at day 2 (72 hours rise)


Here is the recipe:
Total Formula:                
Flour                100.00%   3.70   oz   104.9   g
Water                 80.00%   2.96   oz   83.9   g
Salt                 2.70%   0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour      2.00%   0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ     0.96%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total ADY         0.30%   0.01   oz   0.3   g
Sugar                 1.00%   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total                  186.96%   6.92   oz   196.1   g
               
Preferment:                
Flour:                 50.00%   0.592   oz   16.8   g
Water (100F):       50.00%   0.592   oz   16.8   g
ADY                   0.70%   0.004144   oz   0.1   g         
Preferment amount   40.00%   1.19   oz   33.7   g
               
Final Dough:               
Flour:                    3.11   oz   88.1   g
Water:                    2.37   oz   67.1   g
Salt:                   0.10   oz   2.8   g
Dark Rye Flour      0.07   oz   2.1   g
Wheat Germ      0.04   oz   1.0   g
Remaining ADY:       0.01   oz   0.2   g
Preferment:       1.184   oz   33.6   g
Sugar:                   0.04   oz   1.0   g
Total:                  6.91   oz   196.0   g