Author Topic: Pizza Raquel  (Read 200386 times)

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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2005, 07:35:54 AM »
Guys,
Thanks for giving Pizza Raquel a shot. It looks like the results were favorable. The dough consistently feels so competent to my hands I feel emboldened to try new things everytime I make a pie.

Interesting comments about autolyse. I have determined from my limited pizza making efforts that an autolyse period is beneficial. Additional testing will be required to determine an optimal autolyse period. My sense is that it would vary slightly by flour type since each type has a different absorption rate.

I was underwater all last week and did not have ready access to a keyboard. On top of that my Blackberry died so I am just now catching up on all the action.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2005, 01:37:56 PM »
dankfoot & Pete-zza,
I just finished reviewing your Pizza Raquel efforts and have some questions.

First, there appears to be considerably more charring than what I have noticed from your previous efforts with other recipes. Is that a correct statement? If so, I wonder why? It appears that you each may have cooked the pies a little longer than normal from the photographs posted.

Another observation is that the pies appear to be thinner. Do I have that right? If so, I wonder if there is any merit to using a thicker crust in the future. It may be interesting to compare your normal thickness pie to the thinner looking Raquel and perform a comparative review.

While I am obviously biased, both crusts appear to be excellent examples of home pizza making done right.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2005, 01:58:27 PM »
pft,

In my case, I used the parameters of your Raquel recipe to calculate the thickness factor for my particular dough. Specifically, I used your dough weight and the 16-inch diameter (rather than the 15-inch alternative) to calculate the thickness factor, and then used that thickness factor to calculate how much dough I would need for the 14-inch size. I suspect that the charring was greater because of the very thin crust. Had I used your 15-inch size as a benchmark to calculate the corresponding thickness factor and amount of dough needed for the 14-inch size, the crust would have been a bit thicker. I did not bake the pizza longer than usual, so I think the thinness was the main reason for the greater degree of charring. Not using any olive oil in the dough may also have been a contributing factor, maybe even the main factor.

I agree that it would be interesting to modify the Raquel recipe to have a greater crust thickness. This would be easy to do given that we know the baker's percents for your Raquel recipe. I'm also interested in exploring whether one autolyse method is better than another. As you know, it sometimes takes several experiments to find the answers, varying only one parameter at a time.

Peter

Offline Artale

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2005, 05:04:56 PM »
pft,

In my case, I used the parameters of your Raquel recipe to calculate the thickness factor for my particular dough. Specifically, I used your dough weight and the 16-inch diameter (rather than the 15-inch alternative) to calculate the thickness factor, and then used that thickness factor to calculate how much dough I would need for the 14-inch size. I suspect that the charring was greater because of the very thin crust. Had I used your 15-inch size as a benchmark to calculate the corresponding thickness factor and amount of dough needed for the 14-inch size, the crust would have been a bit thicker. I did not bake the pizza longer than usual, so I think the thinness was the main reason for the greater degree of charring. Not using any olive oil in the dough may also have been a contributing factor, maybe even the main factor.


.

I agree that it would be interesting to modify the Raquel recipe to have a greater crust thickness. This would be easy to do given that we know the baker's percents for your Raquel recipe. I'm also interested in exploring whether one autolyse method is better than another. As you know, it sometimes takes several experiments to find the answers, varying only one parameter at a time.

Peter



Peter,

I have been using a 30 min rest period (based on a post from you and dinks) after I mix
 all ingriedents together leaving 1/3 of the flour on the side for the final mixing stage after the rest.
the results are better.  Why i dont know?  I was using a 20 min rest originally.

I also after completing the process let the dough sit for 20 min on the counter before it goes
to the fridge for a cold slow rise. (24hr). I use small % of IDY  .25% of total flour amount. 60% water.
2 to 2.5 % salt. No starter yet but i am curious if a starter will increase flavor.  So far my observations
tell me that one of the most important issues is the kneading process. If have observed
that if the kneading process is not correct the type of ingredients used will not
create a good dough.  There is a pizzeria in the NYC area that i go to called Ciro's.
Tony has been in business 30+ years and makes a terrific pizza both neapolitian and
sicilian.  I asked Nick (one of the workers who makes the dough as well) what type
of flour. He told me APurpose flour!  I have lived in the NYC area all my life (46 yrs) and have had
some of the finest pizza's around.   From Brooklyn, Queens, NYC the Bronx and even Long Island
has there fair share of some good parlors.  I was shocked to find out that Tony uses All purpose
flour!   As jeff Varasano points out the ingredients are important but not as important as
the process of kneading the flour and creating dough. I am finding out its all feel.

Tony uses a small amount of EVO, he uses salt, water and AP.  I am not sure if he uses starter
i will find out. I will also find out about the yeast he uses and if its a counter rise or cold rise.
My guess is a cold rise. His oven is gas.  He told me it goes to 850 deg F.
Tony also uses Grande motz and his mom makes the sauce which is absolutely delicious.
I not sure they will let that secret go.  Maybe a large sum of cash will do it!  HA!!Ha!  :)

Any how thanks for all your help you and others have helped me a great deal and
with practice i am making a better pizza every week!!

Artale





Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2005, 06:59:02 PM »
I decided to try a 10 hour counter rise with the Pizza Raquel recipe. I didn't have time to use the standard 24+ hour cold rise. A new peel was also delivered this week which required additional flour to grease the pie which ended up turning the bottom whiter than normal. Results are below.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2005, 08:33:20 PM »
Artale,

I think there are too many variables and too many variations from one home setting to another to ever be able to tell for sure what form of autolyse should be used and its optimal duration. When you add the possibility of using a preferment, the situation become even more complex and harder to analyse in a common home setting. Autolyse was originally adapted as a way for bread bakers to improve the dough and the quality of the finished loaf. In the purest sense, the autolyse took place only between flour and water, and the rest period could have been from, say, 20 minutes to an hour. Then it became common to add yeast to the dough prior to the autolyse rest period, and especially if the yeast was incorporated through the use of a preferment, which has relatively low leavening power. It was only after the autolyse period that salt or oil would be added to the dough.

The autolyse methodology credited to Prof. Calvel by DINKS would be considered a classical or pure form of autolyse. But, as DINKS has also pointed out, bakers often deviate from the classical ways of doing things and add their own techniques and preferences to the mix. Sometimes it's by design, but given the many variations of autolyse, I suspect it is often through trial and error. And even if one autolyse approach works well, it may not produce materially different results than some other approach. As an example of this, both pftaylor's and Varasano's forms of "autolyse" seem to produce comparable results in terms of overall dough quality even though they use somewhat different "autolyse" approaches. And the results I recently achieved using the more classical autolyse described by DINKS seemed to be consistent with the results achieved by pftaylor and Varasano. And it sounds like you are experiencing the same effects with your version of autolyse.

As for your question about using a preferment to enhance flavor, I definitely am a proponent of such use for certain kinds of pizzas and where it is convenient to do so. The best crust flavors I have achieved to date were through the use of the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 preferment, with a long, room-temperature fermentation/ripening. However, a good flavor profile can also be achieved using a small amount of commercial yeast (but only a little) along with the preferment, as I did recently in using the Raquel recipe. From a temperature standpoint, it seems to me that more flavor is achieved through a room temperature fermentation, but equally good results might be achieved in a retarded environment if given the benefit of more time for more by-products of fermentation, or more potent by-products of fermentation, to develop. You might also change the overall flavor profile based on how much preferment is used. So, as you can see, there are a multitude of variations and possibilities.

I think you (and Varasano) are also right about technique versus ingredients. I don't know if Ciro's is using a preferment or an autolyse (I tend to doubt they are using either) but I can't say that I am particularly surprised that they are using all-purpose flour for their Neapolitan style pizzas (many pizza cookbook writer recommend doing so) or the Sicilian style dough. If they are using the all-purpose flour for a classic NY style dough, then I would be surprised and want to know more about how they are doing that.

I'm truly happy that you feel you are making progress with your pizza making skills. You seem to be really soaking up all this stuff. And thanks for the kind words.

Peter


Offline Artale

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2005, 10:35:50 PM »
With all the great members on this forum that share their knowledge its hard not to have
make progress!

what a blessing this site is !!

thanks again

 :)

Offline duckjob

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2005, 01:19:51 AM »
I dare say that the pizzas I made tonight were far and away the best I have ever made, and I've been making some pretty decent pizzas lately. It was a modified Raquel. I've been toying with the recipe a bit the last couple weeks, and the following has given me the best tasting pizza to date

30 oz KASL
65% hydration
4 tsp salt
1 tsp sugar
1 tsp OO
1 tsp IDY

I followed the pizza raquel kneading instructions to a T. The dough was split into 4 balls dropped in a plastic bag and placed in the fridge.  I used two dough balls today, they had risen for four days in the fridge.  I allowed the dough to warm up for one hour and preheated the oven to 550 for 1 hour. I cooked both pizzas on the stone for 6 minutes, the last 4 minutes with the broiler on high. The pizzas were coooked seperately. I also used fresh mozzerella for the first time tonight, which was much tastier than I was anticipating. First pizza is fresh mutz and basil. Second pizza is fresh mutz, peperoni and sun dried tomato's. If anyone has other questions please ask, I'm still a bit giddy :) And now the good stuff

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1_bottom.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1_prop.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1_side.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie2.jpg)

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2005, 05:19:54 AM »
duckjob,
Your most recent efforts are worthy of the finest examples of a Neapolitan pie I have seen on this forum. Wow they look good.

Not only does it appear you have the crust right but you seem to have hit upon the correct balance of crust, sauce, and cheese. Well done.

I'm glad Raquel's sister (or as you described it, a modified Raquel) may have helped you in some small way. I'm also grinning with you for I remember when I had my first big breakthrough. It was like falling in love for the first time. It must also be contagious because it appears snowdy broke on through to the other side as well. Only problem now is that you cannot go back to accepting mediocre results.

Welcome to the club.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 05:21:48 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2005, 10:42:09 AM »
duckjob,

I commend you for the great job you did with your modified Raquel pizzas. I knew it was only a matter of time before you would achieve great success with your pizzas because you kept on working and working and experimenting and experimenting and tinkering and tinkering and improving and improving and you never gave up. And you shared your results with the rest of us all along the way, good or bad, and I would smile to myself because I saw that you weren't about to give up. Imagine what you will be able to do and contribute when you finish school  :).

BTW, what size were your pizzas? And could you detect any pronounced fermentation flavors after 4 days?

Peter


Offline varasano

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2005, 11:28:39 AM »
Hey guys,

These photos are really looking good.

Jeff

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2005, 02:55:11 PM »
Key Success Factors to Creating a Home Artisan Pie

I thought it appropriate to describe what I consider to be a true artisan pie and perhaps the key factors associated with being able to eat glorious pie in the comfort of one’s home. I have attempted to cover all the major areas which often lead to a successful result in the home setting. No doubt I will overlook some aspect deemed vital by others so please contribute to the intent of this post where possible.

First, you should have the right approach for the level of achievement you are striving for. If your goal is to produce a “good enough” pie, that’s okay. While it’s not the focus of this thread, I have eaten my fair share of “good enough” pie in my time. Frankly, had I known how long the learning curve would be to climb to an artisan pie, I probably would have turned back. Nah, only kidding!

In order to have the goal of an artisan pie, you must be willing to dedicate the time, energy, effort, and resources to take a simple comfort food and turn it into a gourmet feast. It is not easy. The road is long and completely full of hair-pin turns to be sure. So the litmus test to determine if you are a candidate for artisan home pie making would be to ask yourself a simple question: Do you consider chain pizza good enough?

If your answer is yes then no offense but clearly this thread is not meant for you. I have realized long ago that not everyone wants to produce a gourmet pizza. For those that do however, I would suggest reading further.

A fairly obvious requirement would also be to have the right tools. Reality tells me most people have an ordinary oven in a home setting so about the best I can suggest is to outfit your oven with a stone or tiles as a baseline and crank up the heat as high as possible. One additional thought about ovens is to check the recalibration procedure for your oven and max it out. You may be able to squeeze out another 35 degrees or so. Other tools of importance would be a good mixer, a large prep area, a peel, wheel, scrape, serving tray (which add to the presentation), measuring cups and spoons. Last but not least is the outright requirement for a digital scale. In fact, I recommend not one but two. Since we typically make small batches, some ingredients are very light and could benefit from an ultra precise scale. An ultra precise scale can only measure up to 8 ounces or so but is brutally accurate with ingredients like yeast, salt, and even water. Other ingredients such as flour can benefit from a regular digital scale. Those models generally measure up to 5 lbs or so. You can never be too accurate with ingredients.

There are two points which require expansion here. Quality tools cost real money. I view the cost of my tools as an investment and not a cost. The difference between a cost and an investment in my mind is this: I get a return on my investment – in the form of great tasting pie. Another return is the ability to consistently reproduce a recipe without fear.

Next on the hit parade would be the right recipe. Here I simply mean the right recipe for your tastes. There is no one recipe in the world which is best for everyone. I happen to prefer a NY style pie. If I had access to the best Chicago style recipe in the world, I would turn my nose up to it simply because I don’t care for that style of pie. Others would belly crawl over five miles of jagged glass to get the best Chicago recipe in the world. Not me.

The right recipe to me means that it will produce the type of pie which pleases you the most and it is complete. In other words, it should clearly explain the steps necessary to achieve the end product. The major steps in any recipe would start with ingredient quantities expressed in weights, volumes, measures, and baker’s percentages. Then a description of the proper mixing and stretching steps would be helpful. It should be an end-to-end recipe from the initial mixing steps until the pie comes out of the oven. I happen to be a fan of preferments, high gluten flour, cold rises, and everything else which produces maximum flavor on a thin crust pie.

Ingredients. You need the right ingredients for the type of pizza you plan on making. My general suggestion here is to buy the most expensive ingredients you can get your hands on. The cost between cheap ingredients and the most expensive is not much per pie.

Fresh ingredients such as fresh mutz and fresh herbs like basil are worth the up charge. Better ingredients cost more money there is simply no getting around it. Splurge!

Finally, I believe artisan pizza making all comes down to passion. Whether it is in the home or in a restaurant. You are the secret ingredient. You make the difference between a “good enough” pie and a masterpiece. Sure all the other areas I described briefly above contribute but not to the same degree as a passionate pizza maker. I believe it is primarily because each step of the pizza making process depends in large part on the previous step. If a corner is cut there, a cascading process begins which is unstoppable. It takes a level of caring to take your time with painstakingly precise steps. It takes commitment. It takes effort. It takes passion.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 03:41:53 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline duckjob

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2005, 06:54:20 PM »
Thanks Peter and pftaylor for the kind words, It means a lot to me coming from you two. I would contribute this great dough primarily to the kneading technique you developed for Pizza Raquel.

As far as the size goes, they are 14 inch pizzas, the dough balls weigh approximately 12 oz. I have about 2.5 ounces of fresh mozzerella and probably about 1/4 cup of sauce.  The extra fermentation was noticable, the 4 day dough was more flavorful than the 1 day.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 07:24:54 PM by duckjob »

Offline IslanderJSF

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #53 on: May 01, 2005, 11:02:29 PM »
Greetings.  This is my first post to this board but allow me to say that I have been following the reverse engineering threads and living the experiences along with you all for the past month.  I am finally ready to post as I have made some pizza according to the pizza raquel recipe and am ready to report my results.  My version has been made using a bread machine so hopefully there are some who will find my comments useful and know that even with a bread machine to perform the mixing, a great pizza can be made.

My story goes something like this...  I am originally from Long Island NY.  I now reside in Cincinnati OH which is a desert wasteland for good bagels, chinese food, and especially pizza.  I have been here for 10 years and finally took matters into my own hands last year by trying to make my own pizza.  I worked with the same recipe I found somewhere on the internet for NY style pizza for the enire year.  I was not able to get anything that resembled the type of dough I was used to which was a chewy foldable crust. I was using KASL but my dough would tear easily when stretching.  I played with the amount of water hoping that was the problem but each week my results would vary slightly but ultimately remain the same.  I then found my way to this board at the end of March.  I read and learned and prepared.  I obtained the sourdo italian starters, a digital scale, and a digital thermometer.  The only piece of equipment I haven't yet added is the mixer but it would have to wait for now.

Below is my experience along with photos.  I also try to explain where my process using the bread machine differ from the original Raquel process.

Base Recipe
-----------
Pizza Raquel with oil.  I wanted the highest performing dough and since I have had major problems with tearing dough, I kept the oil.

Ingredient Variances
--------------------
My recipe varied in two areas. 
1) IDY - my scale does not measure less than whole grams so it was impossible for me to be accurate with the IDY.  I believe the amount I used was greater than the prescribed recipe but was OK with this due to point 2 below.
2) Starter - This was my first try with a starter.  I have no clue if it was active.  I followed the instructions but who knows?  There were some bubbles but my hunch is it might not have been fully active.  For this reason I felt the extra IDY may help my cause.  I must say, starter maintenance is a real pain.  I am not sure it is worth it yet.

Mixing Procedure
----------------
According to the raquel process here is where I varied.

1) Stir water and salt ....   Performed the same as in the original instructions but in the bread machine container instead of a mixing bowl.
2) Add half the flour .... Same
3) Mix 30 seconds on sir ....  Here I used the dough cycle on my bread machine for 30 seonds to incorporate the yeast.
4) Add preferment .... Same
5) Mix 1 minute on sitr ....  Here I started a fresh dough cycle and ran it for 1 minute.
6) 20 minute autolyse .... Same
7) Mix on stir for 5 minutes ....  Again I started a fresh dough cycle for 5 minutes and slowly incorporated the remaing flour.
8) Mix on 2/3 for 5 minutes .... Here I kept the cycle running from the previous step for 5 more minutes and added the oil.
9) Check dough temp .... mine was 81.9
10) 15 minute autolyse .... same
11) Knead 2 minutes.... same
12) Cut into 2 pieces ... same
13) refrigerate 24 hours .... same
14) counter rise .... My dough was on the counter for about 3 hours.

In a nutshell this dough was fantastic compared to my previous efforts.  I knew pulling it out of the bread machine that this dough was going to work better.  It definitely appeared to have a higher hydration level than my previous doughs and appeared to be more extensible even before refrigeration.  There was no need to window pane this dough.

My pictures are attached but here are a few observations I made:

1) I was probably too liberal with my oil on the top of the pie.  I chalk this up to rustiness.
2) The crust didn't brown much.  My oven is conventional running at 550 max.  I am considering adding some sugar to help with this.
3) The crust was exceptional in texture, chewiness, and foldability.  I was extremely pleased with the outcome.

All in all I am convinced that this recipe works with a bread machine and I plan on continuing to master it in this way.

A few miscellaneous comments before the pics:
1) The "square" pizzas mentioned in the reverse engineering threads are referred to as "Sicilian" pizzas in NY.  It was pretty customary for my family to order one regualr pie and one sicilian every Friday night while I was at home.  Gosh I miss those days.
2) I am planning a trip back home in July.  MY father is originally from Brooklyn and swears by Tottonos.  I had it when I was younger once but really couldn't appreciate it.  I remember we had a regualr pie and a white pizza.  I am going to try to get there while I am home.  I will offer to do whatever research I can if there is interest.  I will either go there or DiFaras based on feedback from this board.

That's all for now.  I appreciate being a part of the community.  It helps me to know there are people tweaking their barbeques and running self clean cycles to make perfect pizzas.  It helps justify my obsession to my wife.

John
Can't fold it?  Aint real pizza.
Need a knife & fork? Aint real pizza.
Has pineapples or barbeque sauce?  Aint real pizza.
Dont' live in NY?  The only real pizza must be made at home.

Offline scott r

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2005, 02:36:53 AM »
I did some experimenting with Raquel today.  It was my first time with the new dlx mixer, and the sourdo.com starters, and a new recipe, so I decided to make pies at home in my bottom of the line oven.  I have not so affectionately dubbed it the "betty crocker easy bake oven" as it don't think it gets up much past 400 degrees, and it is so small.  Because of this cheap piece of junk I am stuck with in my rented apartment,  I usually make pies for parties at other peoples houses.  With all the new stuff going on I didn't want to screw up with a bunch of hungry friends around waiting for pie.   Although I learned a lot, I really can't say they were the greatest pies I have ever made, but the dough did handle better than anything I have ever made before.  I really think the oven temp was the problem.  After making three pies I had had enough with it and I went in there and disconnected the thermostat.  Now it stays on full blast all the time.  I can't wait for tomorrow and a chance to cook at a decent temp.  I promise to everyone that I will be really careful with this thing!  I am afraid to push it to be too hot.  I really just want to get up to 550 or 600 for now.

All of the pizzas were KASL, no oil, no sugar, and with weighed ingredients. I just used everything at room temp (75 degrees), and was so happy when my final dough temp came out to be 80.5. My sourdough.com starter was the one form the bakery on the island off of Naples.  By the time I used it it had been a bubbly froth for a few feedings.  It was almost the consistency of an extra thick shaving cream. I made two batches of dough. The first was a single raquel with no commercial yeast, only starter.  The second was a double batch with starter, and instant yeast.  I think the single batch is too small for the dlx mixer, maybe even the double.  I think next time I will try a triple.  I don't know if it was because the batches were too small, or if I added the flour too slowly, but I was only able to get about 10 minutes of mixing after the 20 minute rest period.  After 10 minutes, and without all the flour even in there yet, the dough ball just bounced around in the mixer.  I was unable to get a good window pane so I did some extra time with my hand kneading.  I also wanted to try to get some more of the flour in there.  I probably did 8 min instead of the suggested 3. One note about the starter.  This in the room temp 19 hour doughs this flavor is really tart!  It seems like it is going to be much more subdued with the fridge doughs, but I just wanted to warn you guys.  There was nothing subtle about the flavor.  Maybe this recipe is better with a weaker culture than the sourdo.com island starter, or it should be adjusted to have less if you are doing a room temp rise.

Now I know why I am a musician instead of a scientist.  I really wanted to be able to bring something back to the forum because I have learned so much from you guys, and what did I do?  I forgot to label the room temp dough's.  I have no idea which was which, so please forgive me for wasting your time here.  Luckily I did label the refrigerated ones, so I will have more on the differences of those tomorrow.

Pie #1 was a 19 hour room temp rise.  This dough was so alive.  It doubled in size, maybe even more than doubled, and I punched it down.  Another few hours later, and it had almost doubled again. I figured this was the dough with the commercial yeast booster.  It really seemed so full of life when I formed the pie.  I had such high hopes for this dough, but guess what.  This pie sucked.  I don't know what happened, but it was like chewing gum, and had the STRONGEST sour dough taste.  I really began to worry, and regret the past week of constant attention that I had given the starter.  It tasted just like your typical san fran sour dough bread. Maybe even more sour. I am assuming that the dough had just run out of food for the yeasts to feed on when I finally made the pie, and I was using dead dough.

Pie #2 was also a 19 hour room temp rise.  This dough had barely risen at all in the 19 hours.  Nothing like the first dough.  I figured it was the one without the commercial yeast booster.  Now I am really confused as to which was which, because this one had way more spring once cooked.  No more chewing gum, and much less sour dough flavor. I would say the flavor of this dough would have been better if it just had a little more of a yeasty flavor to balance out the sharp sourdough flavor.  Maybe this will come with the refrigerated doughs after more time. Maybe Caputo? The consistency was much better than the first pie, but still not great.  For now I will attribute this to the low oven temp, and the fact that I am still trying to figure out my mixing technique.

Pie #3 was a 24 hour rise in the fridge.  Luckily the fridge doughs were marked, so I know this was one with the instant yeast.  This pie was much more similar to the second pie than the first.  It had even less of  the sourdough flavor, probably the perfect amount.  It had more spring than any, but like pie number 2 it was still a little tough on the outside, and a little too dry and airy on the inside. Once again the oven is probably the culprit here.

A few questions.

Jeff,
what is your minimum size for a batch in the magic mill?  Sorry, I know I read where you said this somewhere else before.  I am having no luck with the search engine, and your posts are adding up!

Is 10 minutes after the first rest enough time for mixing in this thing?  PFT has some exact instructions on timing with his Kitchen Aid, but do you have a longer is better feeling?  I noticed on your website that some of your doughs have gone for what I would consider to be a pretty long time.

Do you think I will be able to mix longer with a bigger batch of dough? 

Questions for anybody willing to help,

The dough handled like Raquel should in the descriptions from PFT, no rips, easy to shape etc.  I am just worried about not being able to get a good window pane right after mixing.  Are you supposed to check for the window pane right after you turn off the mixer, or wait a while for the gluten to chill out?

I really want a dough that is as lighter than your typical NY street pizza, almost soft,  but still very moist on the inside, and crispy on the outside.  I know I will need very high heat for this, and probably a high hydration dough,  but is there anything else I should know with these attributes in mind.  This could very well be what you guys are going for with Raquel.  I just want to make sure I am chasing  after the right girl.  Does the description of my goal sound more like a traditional Neapolitan dough with the caputo flour?  I still haven't had a chance to try a pie like this done correctly so I am not sure.  The closest I have come to tasting  what I want was at Grimaldes.  I can't really say I know what Patsy's is like because when I went there the newer guy gave me two pies that were solid black on the bottom.

Offline varasano

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2005, 07:32:13 AM »
I rarely go under 900g for a batch (2 pounds or about 3 pies). But I think I could get a smaller batch in the machine, now that I know how to use it.  A couple of things. Punching down your dough will make it tough, in my opinion. I never punch down. If your dough doubles in bulk then it is WAY overrisen and will also be tough and dense.  Most of us do a cold rise so this retards the yeast and lets the flavor develop slowly.  Marco uses a room temp rise. If you want to use a room temp rise, you should cut back the amount of yeast A LOT.  Marco uses just 1-3% starter and no IDY (I think).

Also, do not force flour into your dough.  Measuring is fine, but ultimately you have to feel the dough to see if it's got the right amount of flour. If your dough is stuck to the roller before the full kneading time has been reached, then you have added to much flour too quickly. Hand kneading will not solve the problem. In fact I have found that hand kneading actually makes it worse. If the dough is dry enough to comfortably hand knead, it is too dry.  I try to keep all hand kneading to just the minimum I need to shape the balls. Start with about 2/3 of the flour and sprinkle the rest on gradually through the whole kneading cycle. For much of the cycle it will look more like a batter than a dough. This is what you want. If you have a bit of flour left over at the end, don't force it in. Sprinkle a dusting of flour on the dough and press in with your hand. If it's smooth and soft, it's done.

My mixing times are
1 mix
20 rest
10 mix low speed or a bit higher
5 rest
5 mix middle of the dial speed
20 rest

Flour is added continually until the very last minute of mixing.  This method achieves excellent windowpaning every time for me.  However, I get the sense that I may be able to simplify this by removing the 5 min rest in the middle. But I have not tested this.  I do mix much longer than most on this site.

The most valid time to test for windowpaning is after the last rest. But test an extra piece and then toss it. Once you've stretched it out, it will be subpar if you roll it back into a dough. Of course, at this point it's too late to fix anything if it doesn't test well. But you will learn what to do for next time and eventually you won't have to test ever again. I only test if I've made some dramatic change to the recipe. Otherwise I can just tell by feel now.

Have patience. It takes a while.

Jeff
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 07:48:10 AM by varasano »

Offline varasano

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2005, 07:59:14 AM »
I've now make 3 batches with KASL rather than my normal Bread flour. Here's my best guess as to what's happening:

The KASL results in a denser more structured dough. It also cannot take the high heat as well. For those of you baking at low temps, I recommend the KASL over the Bread flour because it seems to brown more quickly. However  you can't really get as light and springy a product out of the KASL. It seems suited for a NY style pizza. For those baking at very high temps and going for a more neopolitan pie, I recommend the bread flour over the KASL.  It takes the high heat better, puffs higher and is overall lighter and more springy. It also has a lighter feel on the stomach.  Also the KASL does not do as well with a very long rise. But overall the flavor of the 2 flours is identical.

Next I will test the Caputo 00 Pizzeria. This has even less gluten than the KA Bread, and thus I'm guessing it will do even better at very high temps (and even worse at low temps).  But I may not get to these tests for a while.

Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2005, 09:59:31 AM »
It looks like Raquel is starting to get around.  ;)

I will try her again this week and post the pics. I think im going to make one large pizza instead of 2 pies.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2005, 10:10:50 AM »
IslanderJSF,

I applaud you for the thorough and detailed explanation of your efforts to try the Raquel recipe using a bread machine. In my view, the bread machine is the toughest machine to use to make high-quality pizza dough. So, any effort on your part to make it easier to use a bread machine for pizza dough production is to be commended.

Your pizza looks fine except that I am puzzled by the lack of more color in the top crust. The bottom browning looks fine but, unless the photo flash washed out the top crust color, there should have been more top crust browning. From my experience, lack of crust browning is caused by one or more of the following: 1) use of a relatively low-protein flour like a 00 flour, 2) insufficient extraction of natural sugar from the flour, examples of this being a same-day dough made within a few hours or a retarded dough with insufficient fermentation, 3) overfermentation and loss of fermentable sugar because of the excessive fermentation, and 4) oven temperature/baking problems. I don't think the lack of added sugar is the problem, although it might improve browning. On the assumption that you used KASL, after 24 hours of retardation, there should have been plenty of natural sugar left in the dough, especially with the Raquel recipe where the experience of most who have made dough based on that recipe is to get several days of useful life out of the dough and decent crust browning.

Unless your bread machine is at fault--and I don't see anything offhand that you did wrong (in fact, I'm impressed with the lengths to which you went to do what you did)--I'm inclined to suspect your oven or baking technique. However, before exploring that possibility, I'd like to point out that in your detailed machine processing instructions, you did not mention when and how you added the IDY. (Usually the IDY is added directly to the flour.) If, for some reason, you forgot to actually add the IDY and, if your preferment was on the weak side, it's possible that there was inadequate fermentation of the dough and insufficient extraction of natural sugar to be available for caramelization and the production of color in the crust. You didn't say how long the pizza was baked, but if it was longer than would normally be required (around 6-8 minutes for the Raquel recipe), the bottom of the crust could brown up while the top of the crust doesn't. At this point, almost no amount of further baking time will cure the problem and you will find yourself taking the pizza out of the oven before the toppings start to burn.

If insufficient sugar extraction was not the cause of your color problem, then that takes us back to the oven. Sometimes people will open the oven door to check on the pizza and, in the process, lose a lot of oven heat. Or they will completely tile an oven rack such that there is little or no space around the tiles to allow heat to reach the top of a pie. The tiles will get very hot but the pizza will get insufficient heat for top crust browning. You didn't indicate what baking technique you used (i.e., pizza stone or tiles), but I suspect that your stone or tiles and their positioning in the oven are not at fault, especially in light of the fact that you apparently have been making pizzas for some time without incident. You could move your pizza under the broiler for a minute or so to get increased top crust browning, but you should have been able to get adequate browning without doing that, and especially with a flour like the KASL. I don't know what kind of oven you have, but if any of the above possibilities were at fault, you should be able to correct the problem fairly easily. You might want to doublecheck your oven temperatures and especially the temperature at the surface of the stone/tiles to be sure they are at the proper temperature at the time of baking (usually you will need an hour or so of preheating at 500-550 degrees F).

Please let us know if you determine the source of the browning problem. I also look forward to the results of your further experimentation with your bread machine.

Peter

Offline IslanderJSF

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2005, 04:41:40 PM »
Pete-zza,

I appreciate your thoughts on the crust.

There were no camera/flash issues here.  I am as puzzled as you are by the lack of color in my crust.  Generally speaking I have not found my crusts to brown tremendously but this particular one was as white as I've seen.

To address some of your comments:

The IDY was added in the first step and incorporated into the flour. 
My oven was pre-heated on 550 for over an hour.
I am using a stone which is set in the middle of the lowest oven rack. 
The dough was a 24 hour refrigerated rise with 3 hours on the counter which doesn't strike me as out of bounds for sugar production.

I will say that this pizza was only cooked for about 6 1/2 minutes.  This could be the cause of the problem.  It had been well over a month since I made one and the rust definitely showed.  I was concerned with overcooking (even though I have never really done this with my oven) so I did check on it quite regularly which meant a few times opening the oven door.  I hope this is the main cause of the problem.  Although I cooked this pizza at 550 I have found that my pizzas seem to do better around 500. With my next batch I will shoot for a cook time closer to 8 minutes as long as my toppings aren't burning.  I think I will try this before resorting to adding sugar to the recipe. 

As for the bread machine, pftaylor's instructions worked pretty well with it.  The only tricky part was learning the bread machine's dough cycle enough to understand when to reset it and when to let it continue to resemble the mixing speeds.

I believe I have a setup similar to yours.  With your Raquel attempts how long have you been cooking your pizza and at what temp? My stone is 14 inches so I probably need to reduce the dough ball size to accommodate the reduced pie size although I didn't feel that the pizza was too thick.  I have a couple batches planned for the next few weeks so hopefully I can nail down these minor issues.  It is much more pleasurable concentrating on details like this instead of issues like tearing dough.

John

Can't fold it?  Aint real pizza.
Need a knife & fork? Aint real pizza.
Has pineapples or barbeque sauce?  Aint real pizza.
Dont' live in NY?  The only real pizza must be made at home.


 

pizzapan