Author Topic: Pizza Raquel  (Read 219991 times)

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Offline duckjob

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2005, 01:15:40 PM »
pftaylor,

I'll be experimenting with fresh moz for the first time in the next week or so and I have a couple questions for you. First, generally how thick do you slice the cheese, and also, do you put sauce underneath it, over it or neither? Thanks




Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2005, 04:53:38 PM »
duckjob,
I have experimented with just about every variation you can think of. The reason for all my tinkering is the belief I hold about light fluffy crust. It has been my experience that a lighter than light crust can be obtained by adhering to proper mixing and stretching steps and keeping the top of the pizza somewhat light weight-wise so the oven spring can effectively push upward into a fluffy middle during baking.

Currently, I am a fan of dipping the cheese in sauce and placing it directly on top of the dough. An alternate approach to this would be to place the cheese down first and then coat the top with a light layer of sauce. I then paint the dough inbetween the cheese with a layer of sauce. It takes longer to dress the skin that way, but I've found the crust to be much lighter as a result.

I have also tried just about every size of cheese. From chunks to thinly sliced 1/16th" sections (like a thin sliced deli meat). I understand Chris Bianco uses 3/4" chunks of mozzarella on his artisan pies. It obvoiusly works for Chris but I don't think he makes a 16" pie. Pizza Raquel is about 16" and thin slices seem to work better than chunks in terms of coverage. The downside with thin slices is the potential for burning. I try to use between 4 - 5 ounces of fresh mutz per pie irrespective of any other toppings.

I trust this helps.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 05:01:13 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2005, 05:29:52 PM »
As a follow up to my last post, there is another reason why I use thin slices instead of chunks. I already mentioned that chunks work better on smaller diameter pies. But they also visually convey an Italian Neapolitan pizza image. That may be the visual cue I use for Pizza Sophia (the Italian version of Raquel) which uses Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour instead of high gluten but it is not the "look" I want to have for Raquel. A minor point I know but an important one to me. It may be an over-the-top romantic point to some but I prefer to make pizzas with a certain amount of passion. Pizza made passionately seems to taste better for some reason.

As a side note, the Pizza Raquel recipe has been tested with Caputo Pizzeria flour and it was quite successful.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 06:10:28 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2005, 07:44:25 PM »
pftaylor,

I just made a batch of dough from your recipe above but I ran into a problem. I'm not sure if I measured wrong or what. I know on your older recipes you used 3 cups of flour but in your latest recipe you are now using 3 1/3 cups of flour. Anyway as I was mixing in the remaining flour I could tell the dough was getting kind of dry. So I stopped at about 3 cups instead of the 3 1/3 cups. This seems to be about right as far as looks and feel.

So I was wondering what made you change from the old recipe at 3 cups vs the new one at 3 1/3 cups?

Thanks
Chris

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2005, 07:54:37 PM »
dankfoot,
I need you to do me a favor. Can you explain where you came up with the name dankfoot? I can't wait to read your answer. Anyway, here is my response to your question.

Volume measurements are always a guess at best. Pete-zza and I have never been able to agree on any volume measurements because we have different measuring cups and spoons. Additionally, my ingredients may be more compacted then yours, or vice-versa which leads to more complications.

I would heartily suggest you weigh everything where possible. Weighing is the single best advice I can give you when you are trying to follow a recipe whether its mine or not.

I changed the amount of KASL from 3 cups to 3 1/3 because I originally shook the measuring cups a few times to get a level read. I have been told that it is not how flour is generally measured. One is supposed to gently fill the measuring cup with flour and then take a read. So by boosting the amount up by 1/3rd of a cup, it was my way to accomodate baking convention.

Weigh everything if you can.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 07:59:28 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2005, 09:15:32 PM »
pftaylor,

I'm not real sure how to answer where that name came from. A long time ago I was trying to pick a yahoo email account and the names I kept picking were already taken so yahoo asked me a few questions and it took all my answers and put them together. I have had it ever since and now it has become a nick name.  ( Well my friends just make fun of it )

Anyway, thank you for your response. The measuring cup I used to measure the water is kind of crappy. So I had to guess on the water level. I did weigh it out to be 9 6/8 I think.  Also, in measuring the flour I kind of loosened it up and I dumped 3 1/3 cups into a bowl ( not the mixing bowl ). In your recipe you say to add the rest of the flour slowly so when I was doing that process it just looked like the dough was getting dry. So I left some flour out which im guessing about 1/3 of a cup. 

I plan on making this pie on Thursday so I will let you know how it comes out. I am still waiting on my 6 in 1's which I orderd 2 weeks ago but still have not received. I will try to take some pictures also.

Anyway thanks again.
Chris


Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2005, 09:49:01 AM »
My go at the pizza Raquel.

First, I made the dough to be like PFTaylor’s latest recipe. I found that the 3 1/3 cups of flour was getting too dry while mixing so I left some flour out and only used maybe 3 cups. After mixing I cut the dough ball into two pieces. One dough being bigger than the other. Then I covered the dough balls and let sit in the refrigerator for 3 days.

The first pizza I made was the smallest one. I made this on my pizza stone, which I have not used in over a year but I wanted to try it out. The dough was very strong and elasticity. On this pizza I had 6 in 1, Grande cheese, fresh mozz, Margharita pepperoni, Green peppers, onion, sweet sausage and fresh basil. This pizza came out only ok. But it is my fault. I wanted a good char to the crust but it ended up cooking it too much. I guess I need more practice with my stone.

2nd pie. This one came out a lot better than the first. I cooked this one on my screen. The dough was very strong and felt like you could not tear it if you tried. It felt like the dough was begging to be tossed in the air instead of being stretched but with my skills I would be picking it up off the floor or off of the ceiling fan. I got this dough stretched out to about 16 inches. On this pizza I had 6 in 1, Grande, margharita pepperoni, fresh mozz, fresh basil. This pizza had a sweet taste and a chewy bite to it. It was really good and a lot better than the first.

Notes:

This is the first time I have used the Grande cheese. After a sample bite I could tell right away it was the best cheese I have used.

This was also the first time I have used the 6 in 1 tomatoes.  After I opened the can and had a sample taste I could tell that they were really good and tasted very fresh. But I am not sure if they are any better than the Cento or Muir Glen. I guess you would have to try them side by side. They did produce a sweet taste and that was what I was after.

Fresh Mozz, I have been using this a while now but last night it seamed to produce more liquid on the top of the pizza than normal. Maybe it was fresher than normal? Not sure.

The Dough, I though this dough was killer. I need more practice with it but it’s a winner. I think next time I will not split the dough in half and will use up the entire 18 inch screen and have a big lip/crust to the next pizza.

Here are some pics but I found out my camera sucks.

PS. Thanks PFTaylor for sharing your recipe. Good Job.



Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2005, 01:09:37 PM »
Recently I took another stab at making the Raquel dough. This time around, however, I used the version of the recipe without the olive oil. Apart from using the stated baker's percents (and a thickness factor of 0.068) to downsize the recipe to produce a dough ball weight (10.42 oz.) suitable for a 14-inch pizza, the largest my pizza stone can handle, I followed pftaylor's instructions as exactly as I could. This time around I also decided to hold the dough (refrigerated) for about 3 days, to test the condition and suitability of the dough after that length of time. Previously, I used the dough about 24 hours after placing it in the refrigerator. The recipe I ended up with is as follows:

100%, Flour (KASL high-gluten), 6.13 oz. (about 1 1/4 c. + 2 T. + 1 t.)
60%, Water, 3.68 oz. (between 3/8 and 1/2 c., temp. adjusted to get a finished dough temp. of 80 degrees F)
0.0625%, IDY, 0.004 oz. (three very small pinches between the thumb and forefinger)
2%, Salt, 0.12 oz. (about 5/8 t.)
8%, Preferment, 0.49 oz. (about 1 T.)

I experienced no problems in forming the dough. However, it rose very little in the refrigerator over the three-day period. For the first two days, the round dough ball remained completely round, with no signs of spreading whatsoever in the bowl. It was only during the third day that the dough started to spread a bit. When time came to use the dough, it started to expand, rising gradually on the counter from a dough temperature in the refrigerator of about 41 degrees F to over 60 degrees F. at a room temperature of about 75 degrees F, over a roughly 2-hour time period.

I also had no difficulty shaping the dough. It handled very easily, although it seemed not to handle quite as nicely as the previous Raquel dough. Whether it was because of the lack of olive oil, the longer fermentation period (3 days versus 1 day), or the fact that I had used the "real" autolyse technique attributed by fellow member DINKS to Prof. Calvel, the bread expert, I have no idea. The latest dough had more "wrinkles" in it, but it was still quite elastic and easy to handle without the fear of ripping or holes or weak spots forming. In fact, the dough still had enough elasticity remaining after 3 days as to lead me to believe that the dough could have held out for another few days without harmful effects. I believe Varasano is correct as to his statements on his experiences with long dough life expectancies. 

Once the dough was shaped and dressed (using a simple combination of pureed LaRegina DOP San Marzano tomatoes and fresh cherry tomatoes, fresh oregano, a fresh mozzarella cheese, and a blend of grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and grana padano cheese), it was baked for about 5 minutes on a first pizza stone that had been preheated on the lowest oven rack position for about 1 hour at a temperature of 500-550 degrees F, following which it was moved to a second pizza stone at the topmost oven rack position and exposed to about a minute of baking under the broiler element that had been turned on about 4 minutes into the baking process. The photos below show the finished product.

The finished pizza and its crust tasted fine. The crust was was very light (weight-wise), thin and chewy in the center, with a healthy degree of droop, and chewy and crunchy at the rim. The crust flavor, however, was not as pronounced and as satisfying as others I have made recently. For me, top honors for crust flavor goes to the Caputo 00 pizzas using the natural Caputo 00 preferment, no added commercial yeast, and a long counter rise at room temperature. My experiece to date is that where a commercial yeast, such as IDY, is used along with a natural preferment, the flavor is not quite as good as a dough that uses only the natural preferment. I have read of this sort of thing happening, and have heard the same from people who make sourdough breads, but am at a loss to explain it. It might also be useful to mention at this point that, just because a dough has outstanding shaping and stretching qualities, it will also produce the best overall pizza in terms of taste and satisfaction. It is somewhat counterintuitive, but some of the best pizzas I have made have come from doughs that were so questionable when it came time to shape that I thought failure was at hand. A good example of this is the Caputo 00 doughs with such high hydration that they were almost impossible to handle without their trying to tear and stick to my peel.

Since a single test hardly establishes a pattern, I plan to repeat the Raquel recipe but using the olive oil again and repeating the Prof. Calvel autolyse technique described by DINKS, along with a 3-day fermentation/retardation period. That should produce a more meaningful comparison.

Peter

Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2005, 02:10:20 PM »
Pete,

It looks good. Im ready to make another one too.

Chris


Offline scott r

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2005, 02:25:41 PM »
I have also found refrences to commercial yeast hurting the flavor of bread bakers sourdough cultures.  Would it be crazy to try the Raquel without commercial yeast, and use a little culture?  I think I will try that tomorrow.  Does anyone have any suggestions for how I should alter other aspects of the recipe/dough management?  I will be using the sourdo.com Italian starters.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2005, 03:20:09 PM »
Scott,

A while back, in connection with an experiment I conducted using a natural preferment and a small amount of IDY to make a variation of the standard Lehmann NY style dough, I invited pftaylor to try out his Raquel recipe but using only a natural preferment, and no commercial yeast. Between us, we came up with a couple of experiments for pftaylor to try. You might find it useful to read (or reread) the background and the results of pftaylor's experiments, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.120.html with Replies #134-140 and 144 et. seq. One of the things you may want to keep in mind is the amount of preferment you use for a retarded dough. You may recall that recently fellow member Crusty used a very small amount of preferment (1/2 t.) to make a retarded Lehmann NY style dough and had problems with baking the crust in a normal time frame (it took him 19 minutes). Bakerboy offered up some helpful hints to Crusty, saying

"I would use 15-20% of the weight of your flour as a starting point for how much starter to use. The hydration of your starter may change the dough consistency. If you have a soupy starter (which is fine) you may have to bump up a bit more flour. For example my "starter" is a dough that is mixed and fermented at 60% hydration....same as my pizza dough. That way, when I add my fermented dough (pate fermente) is doesn't change my hydration parameters of my pizza dough".

I look forward to your results, Scott, and am anxious to read about your assessment of the sourdo.com starter you plan to use.

Peter

« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 03:30:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2005, 04:45:03 PM »
thanks, I can't wait to try this out.   Right now the only thing holding me up is my starter.  It has been a long, slow, recovery from my accident of underfeeding the starter, and it going into a reduced state of activity.  From the looks of things tomorrow should be the day for them to be really active.  Unfortunately I have been thinking that for the past three days!  I want to make sure these things are really rocking before I make the first dough with them.

Offline bakerboy

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2005, 05:02:28 PM »
Pete.  thats a really nice looking pie.  You could sell that.  I see you had a dough weight of a little over 10 oz.  for a 14" pizza.  mine was 24 oz for a 15" pie.  I gotta cut that back a little.
Regarding your comments about the starter and the idy, if i'm using a starter or a pate fermente, i always use that as my primary leavener and just use a little of the idy for a "push", or not at all.  The advantage, i feel, is that in using an already "ripe" or "fermented" starter, you get the benefit of it not only being the leavener but seriously contributing to the overall flavor of the final product because 20% (lets say) for your dough has already got a serious head start in the fermentation process.  If you have to use the dough as soon as its risen it will have a better depth of flavor than a dough that was risen in 1.5 hrs. by idy.  If you can retard it for a day (depending on the amount of leavening) so much the better.  My dough will last 2 days retarded and be fine.  The third day its questionable.  It usually doesn't make it for a third day but when it does we don't use it.  Too bubbly, alcoholic, and doesn't want to brown properly.

Offline varasano

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2005, 06:00:33 PM »
I have also found refrences to commercial yeast hurting the flavor of bread bakers sourdough cultures.  Would it be crazy to try the Raquel without commercial yeast, and use a little culture?  I think I will try that tomorrow.  Does anyone have any suggestions for how I should alter other aspects of the recipe/dough management?  I will be using the sourdo.com Italian starters.

It depends on the starter. With my Pasty's starter I really need some IDY. Not much., maybe 0.25%.   Each starter is totally different.  Your's may or may not need it. You can only tell by testing it yourself or by talking to someone who used that exact same starter. Did you buy Ed Wood's book?  Never mix IDY into your permanent culture. Instead you take some out of your permanent culture, mix it with the new dough and some IDY.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2005, 08:14:48 PM »
Bakerboy,

The dough thickness factor I used in making the dough for the most recent pizza was calculated based on the amount of dough that pftaylor uses in his Raquel recipe to make his 15"-16" pizzas. If my math is correct, his thickness factor is 0.0678 for the 16-inch size. To accurately replicate the Raquel recipe but in a smaller pizza size, I used the same thickness factor but scaled down his Raquel recipe to the 14-inch size. I used pftaylor's baker's percents to get the amount of dough I would need for the 14-inch size. The reason I asked you the size of your pizzas was because a pound and a half of dough (24 oz.) will normally produce a very thick crust for any pizza below, say, 16"-18". For your dough, I calculated that the thickness factor is 0.136 (24/(3.14 x 7.5 x 7.5) = 0.136). That would be considered a thick crust dough, and compares with around 0.10 for a typical NY style dough. It would also be about twice as thick as the crust I and pftaylor have made using his Raquel recipe. It all ultimately comes down to personal taste. Some of the better pizzas I have made were based on bread recipes rather than pizza recipes, and the crusts were as almost as thick as yours.

What you say about using 20% pate fermente or starter seems to make sense in the context of the 1- to 3-day timeframe you use. As you know, in breadmaking that percent can go as high as 50%. That really gives the dough a headstart but at the same time there is less extractable sugar in the remaining flour to allow the dough to go out too long before it starts to go downhill. I suspect in most cases that isn't a problem because the targeted timeframe is not likely to be several days.

As for selling the pizza I made, I am sure customers would be complaining that they were shortchanged because the pizza was so thin and light that they could eat the whole thing (just as I did) and still be hungry. Your pizzas would sell much better because they have real heft, and that is what most people seem to prefer. 

Peter
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 12:05:23 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2005, 07:35:54 AM »
Guys,
Thanks for giving Pizza Raquel a shot. It looks like the results were favorable. The dough consistently feels so competent to my hands I feel emboldened to try new things everytime I make a pie.

Interesting comments about autolyse. I have determined from my limited pizza making efforts that an autolyse period is beneficial. Additional testing will be required to determine an optimal autolyse period. My sense is that it would vary slightly by flour type since each type has a different absorption rate.

I was underwater all last week and did not have ready access to a keyboard. On top of that my Blackberry died so I am just now catching up on all the action.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2005, 01:37:56 PM »
dankfoot & Pete-zza,
I just finished reviewing your Pizza Raquel efforts and have some questions.

First, there appears to be considerably more charring than what I have noticed from your previous efforts with other recipes. Is that a correct statement? If so, I wonder why? It appears that you each may have cooked the pies a little longer than normal from the photographs posted.

Another observation is that the pies appear to be thinner. Do I have that right? If so, I wonder if there is any merit to using a thicker crust in the future. It may be interesting to compare your normal thickness pie to the thinner looking Raquel and perform a comparative review.

While I am obviously biased, both crusts appear to be excellent examples of home pizza making done right.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2005, 01:58:27 PM »
pft,

In my case, I used the parameters of your Raquel recipe to calculate the thickness factor for my particular dough. Specifically, I used your dough weight and the 16-inch diameter (rather than the 15-inch alternative) to calculate the thickness factor, and then used that thickness factor to calculate how much dough I would need for the 14-inch size. I suspect that the charring was greater because of the very thin crust. Had I used your 15-inch size as a benchmark to calculate the corresponding thickness factor and amount of dough needed for the 14-inch size, the crust would have been a bit thicker. I did not bake the pizza longer than usual, so I think the thinness was the main reason for the greater degree of charring. Not using any olive oil in the dough may also have been a contributing factor, maybe even the main factor.

I agree that it would be interesting to modify the Raquel recipe to have a greater crust thickness. This would be easy to do given that we know the baker's percents for your Raquel recipe. I'm also interested in exploring whether one autolyse method is better than another. As you know, it sometimes takes several experiments to find the answers, varying only one parameter at a time.

Peter

Offline Artale

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2005, 05:04:56 PM »
pft,

In my case, I used the parameters of your Raquel recipe to calculate the thickness factor for my particular dough. Specifically, I used your dough weight and the 16-inch diameter (rather than the 15-inch alternative) to calculate the thickness factor, and then used that thickness factor to calculate how much dough I would need for the 14-inch size. I suspect that the charring was greater because of the very thin crust. Had I used your 15-inch size as a benchmark to calculate the corresponding thickness factor and amount of dough needed for the 14-inch size, the crust would have been a bit thicker. I did not bake the pizza longer than usual, so I think the thinness was the main reason for the greater degree of charring. Not using any olive oil in the dough may also have been a contributing factor, maybe even the main factor.


.

I agree that it would be interesting to modify the Raquel recipe to have a greater crust thickness. This would be easy to do given that we know the baker's percents for your Raquel recipe. I'm also interested in exploring whether one autolyse method is better than another. As you know, it sometimes takes several experiments to find the answers, varying only one parameter at a time.

Peter



Peter,

I have been using a 30 min rest period (based on a post from you and dinks) after I mix
 all ingriedents together leaving 1/3 of the flour on the side for the final mixing stage after the rest.
the results are better.  Why i dont know?  I was using a 20 min rest originally.

I also after completing the process let the dough sit for 20 min on the counter before it goes
to the fridge for a cold slow rise. (24hr). I use small % of IDY  .25% of total flour amount. 60% water.
2 to 2.5 % salt. No starter yet but i am curious if a starter will increase flavor.  So far my observations
tell me that one of the most important issues is the kneading process. If have observed
that if the kneading process is not correct the type of ingredients used will not
create a good dough.  There is a pizzeria in the NYC area that i go to called Ciro's.
Tony has been in business 30+ years and makes a terrific pizza both neapolitian and
sicilian.  I asked Nick (one of the workers who makes the dough as well) what type
of flour. He told me APurpose flour!  I have lived in the NYC area all my life (46 yrs) and have had
some of the finest pizza's around.   From Brooklyn, Queens, NYC the Bronx and even Long Island
has there fair share of some good parlors.  I was shocked to find out that Tony uses All purpose
flour!   As jeff Varasano points out the ingredients are important but not as important as
the process of kneading the flour and creating dough. I am finding out its all feel.

Tony uses a small amount of EVO, he uses salt, water and AP.  I am not sure if he uses starter
i will find out. I will also find out about the yeast he uses and if its a counter rise or cold rise.
My guess is a cold rise. His oven is gas.  He told me it goes to 850 deg F.
Tony also uses Grande motz and his mom makes the sauce which is absolutely delicious.
I not sure they will let that secret go.  Maybe a large sum of cash will do it!  HA!!Ha!  :)

Any how thanks for all your help you and others have helped me a great deal and
with practice i am making a better pizza every week!!

Artale





Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2005, 06:59:02 PM »
I decided to try a 10 hour counter rise with the Pizza Raquel recipe. I didn't have time to use the standard 24+ hour cold rise. A new peel was also delivered this week which required additional flour to grease the pie which ended up turning the bottom whiter than normal. Results are below.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2005, 08:33:20 PM »
Artale,

I think there are too many variables and too many variations from one home setting to another to ever be able to tell for sure what form of autolyse should be used and its optimal duration. When you add the possibility of using a preferment, the situation become even more complex and harder to analyse in a common home setting. Autolyse was originally adapted as a way for bread bakers to improve the dough and the quality of the finished loaf. In the purest sense, the autolyse took place only between flour and water, and the rest period could have been from, say, 20 minutes to an hour. Then it became common to add yeast to the dough prior to the autolyse rest period, and especially if the yeast was incorporated through the use of a preferment, which has relatively low leavening power. It was only after the autolyse period that salt or oil would be added to the dough.

The autolyse methodology credited to Prof. Calvel by DINKS would be considered a classical or pure form of autolyse. But, as DINKS has also pointed out, bakers often deviate from the classical ways of doing things and add their own techniques and preferences to the mix. Sometimes it's by design, but given the many variations of autolyse, I suspect it is often through trial and error. And even if one autolyse approach works well, it may not produce materially different results than some other approach. As an example of this, both pftaylor's and Varasano's forms of "autolyse" seem to produce comparable results in terms of overall dough quality even though they use somewhat different "autolyse" approaches. And the results I recently achieved using the more classical autolyse described by DINKS seemed to be consistent with the results achieved by pftaylor and Varasano. And it sounds like you are experiencing the same effects with your version of autolyse.

As for your question about using a preferment to enhance flavor, I definitely am a proponent of such use for certain kinds of pizzas and where it is convenient to do so. The best crust flavors I have achieved to date were through the use of the Caputo 00 flour and the natural Caputo 00 preferment, with a long, room-temperature fermentation/ripening. However, a good flavor profile can also be achieved using a small amount of commercial yeast (but only a little) along with the preferment, as I did recently in using the Raquel recipe. From a temperature standpoint, it seems to me that more flavor is achieved through a room temperature fermentation, but equally good results might be achieved in a retarded environment if given the benefit of more time for more by-products of fermentation, or more potent by-products of fermentation, to develop. You might also change the overall flavor profile based on how much preferment is used. So, as you can see, there are a multitude of variations and possibilities.

I think you (and Varasano) are also right about technique versus ingredients. I don't know if Ciro's is using a preferment or an autolyse (I tend to doubt they are using either) but I can't say that I am particularly surprised that they are using all-purpose flour for their Neapolitan style pizzas (many pizza cookbook writer recommend doing so) or the Sicilian style dough. If they are using the all-purpose flour for a classic NY style dough, then I would be surprised and want to know more about how they are doing that.

I'm truly happy that you feel you are making progress with your pizza making skills. You seem to be really soaking up all this stuff. And thanks for the kind words.

Peter


Offline Artale

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2005, 10:35:50 PM »
With all the great members on this forum that share their knowledge its hard not to have
make progress!

what a blessing this site is !!

thanks again

 :)

Offline duckjob

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2005, 01:19:51 AM »
I dare say that the pizzas I made tonight were far and away the best I have ever made, and I've been making some pretty decent pizzas lately. It was a modified Raquel. I've been toying with the recipe a bit the last couple weeks, and the following has given me the best tasting pizza to date

30 oz KASL
65% hydration
4 tsp salt
1 tsp sugar
1 tsp OO
1 tsp IDY

I followed the pizza raquel kneading instructions to a T. The dough was split into 4 balls dropped in a plastic bag and placed in the fridge.  I used two dough balls today, they had risen for four days in the fridge.  I allowed the dough to warm up for one hour and preheated the oven to 550 for 1 hour. I cooked both pizzas on the stone for 6 minutes, the last 4 minutes with the broiler on high. The pizzas were coooked seperately. I also used fresh mozzerella for the first time tonight, which was much tastier than I was anticipating. First pizza is fresh mutz and basil. Second pizza is fresh mutz, peperoni and sun dried tomato's. If anyone has other questions please ask, I'm still a bit giddy :) And now the good stuff

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1_bottom.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1_prop.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie1_side.jpg)
(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/raquel_mod_043005/pie2.jpg)

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2005, 05:19:54 AM »
duckjob,
Your most recent efforts are worthy of the finest examples of a Neapolitan pie I have seen on this forum. Wow they look good.

Not only does it appear you have the crust right but you seem to have hit upon the correct balance of crust, sauce, and cheese. Well done.

I'm glad Raquel's sister (or as you described it, a modified Raquel) may have helped you in some small way. I'm also grinning with you for I remember when I had my first big breakthrough. It was like falling in love for the first time. It must also be contagious because it appears snowdy broke on through to the other side as well. Only problem now is that you cannot go back to accepting mediocre results.

Welcome to the club.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2005, 05:21:48 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2005, 10:42:09 AM »
duckjob,

I commend you for the great job you did with your modified Raquel pizzas. I knew it was only a matter of time before you would achieve great success with your pizzas because you kept on working and working and experimenting and experimenting and tinkering and tinkering and improving and improving and you never gave up. And you shared your results with the rest of us all along the way, good or bad, and I would smile to myself because I saw that you weren't about to give up. Imagine what you will be able to do and contribute when you finish school  :).

BTW, what size were your pizzas? And could you detect any pronounced fermentation flavors after 4 days?

Peter


 

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