Author Topic: Pizza Raquel  (Read 192419 times)

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Offline duckjob

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2005, 01:29:14 AM »
I planted a couple sweet italian basil plants along with two greek oregano plants about two weeks ago. In the mean time, there is a local italian deli that sells bundles of fresh basil for $1, it is delicious. My next project will be a fresh mutz, roma tomato and basil pie, I'll post pictures. I'll be asking them if they will sell me seeds next time I'm in. While we are discussing high quality ingredients, for anyone that hasn't tried it, grande whole milk moz is amazingly good. I just got my 7 pound block the other day.



Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2005, 07:01:16 AM »
duckjob,
I never thought about growing my own tomatoes. I wonder what the Florida climate will support. I would naturally like to try San Marzano seeds first. Another alternative would be to try the much more flavorful Florida "Ugly Ripe" variety. I'm not sure they have the right consistency but they are worth a peek.

Regarding the Whole Milk Mutz from Grande, I have to give you the Heisman on that one. While it is a good creamy mutz, it is not generally considered to be anything more than a street pizza cheese from what I can tell. I bought four 5lb blocks of it and thought it was average at best for my application.

Artisan cheese would need to be along the lines of a fresh bufala with a bright white exterior. Or one of the newer lower moisture, whiter than white, cryo packed fresh mutz types I have written about. Yellow cheese has no place in artisan pizza in my personal opinion.
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2005, 07:14:12 AM »
Varasano

The DLX seams a good home mixer, but the fork mixer one has a professional technology.  I have seen the video on your website for the DLX. You have received advice from home baker not from professionals. Off course, if the price tag is a factor, you have made a good choice (Anyway I have seen a DLX model on sale for $800 and the Santos on the link is reduced to $1100 from $1800). I am sure you are far better then a Kitchen Aid However there is no context, and the Fork mixer is superior. The dough get folded over and over again incorporating a lot of air. As you may know, the yeast then just works on this air and makes the bubble bigger... The whole happen very slowly, so you can control the mixing and doesn't heat the dough.

Offline varasano

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2005, 07:49:07 AM »
The DLX is $479 included shipping and tax:

http://www.mountaintopsmilling.com/shopcart/products.php?cat=500&cat_name=Mixers

The DLX also folds the dough over onto itself and produces almost no heat. I have to do a video with the actual dough in it someday.  It's a weird little machine, but very cool.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2005, 08:31:35 AM »
Here is the updated Pizza Raquel recipe:

                                                        Pizza Raquel - Everything You'd Want                                                    
             
 
Weight                                  Volume                                         Description                     Bakers Percent
16   oz/  456  Grams      3 1/3 cups                                   KASL High Gluten Flour                   100%     
9.6  oz/  273  Grams      1 1/8 cups or 9 fluid oz               Water                                                60%     
.01  oz/ .285  Grams         1/8 teaspoon (baker's pinch)   Instant Dry Yeast                         .0625%     
.32  oz/  9.1   Grams      2 1/4 teaspoon                           Sicilian Sea Salt (fine cut)                    2%
1.3  oz/  37    Grams      2  tablespoons (heaping)            Preferment (I use Varasano)              8% 
27.23oz/775.385 Grams

Produces two dough balls weighing 13 - 14oz (enough for two 15" - 16" pizzas). If you do not have a preferment simply add an extra 1/4 teaspoon of IDY.

Preparation Steps
1 - Stir water and salt with spoon/whisk until dissolved in stand mixer bowl.
2 - Add approximately half the flour first, then the yeast. Fit stand mixer with hook attachment.
3 - Mix 30 seconds on stir to incorporate yeast.
4 - Add preferment.
5 - Mix 1 minute on stir to incorporate preferment.
6 - 20 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die painfully).
7 - Mix on stir speed for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually over the 5 minute mix.
8 - Mix on 2/3 for 5 minutes.
9 - Check dough temperature with digital thermometer; it should be 80 degrees at the hook.
10 15 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die really painfully and slowly).
11 Remove dough from bowl and hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area.
12 Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, place dough into bowls, cover with shower caps.
13 Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for 24+ hours.
14 On the following day(s), remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature. Note: Do not punch down, reform balls, or do anything to the dough other than let it warm to room temperature.

Stretching Steps  
1 - Place dough ball in flour bowl. Dust both sides well. Dust prep area with flour.
2 - Flatten ball into a thick pancake-like shape with palm of hand, ~ 2" thick. Keep well dusted.
3 - Press fingertips into center and working toward the rim until skin is 10 inches round. Keep well dusted.
4 - Place hands palm down inside rim and stretch outward while turning. Stretch to 12" round.
5 - Place skin over knuckles (1st time dough is lifted off bench) and stretch to 16"+/-
6 - Pat excess flour off skin. Place on floured peel and dress with favorite toppings.
7 - Peel dressed skin into preheated oven (1 hr+ at max temp) outfitted with tiles.
8 - Bake until lightly or heavily charred (more flavor).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 08:33:49 AM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline duckjob

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2005, 01:15:40 PM »
pftaylor,

I'll be experimenting with fresh moz for the first time in the next week or so and I have a couple questions for you. First, generally how thick do you slice the cheese, and also, do you put sauce underneath it, over it or neither? Thanks



Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2005, 04:53:38 PM »
duckjob,
I have experimented with just about every variation you can think of. The reason for all my tinkering is the belief I hold about light fluffy crust. It has been my experience that a lighter than light crust can be obtained by adhering to proper mixing and stretching steps and keeping the top of the pizza somewhat light weight-wise so the oven spring can effectively push upward into a fluffy middle during baking.

Currently, I am a fan of dipping the cheese in sauce and placing it directly on top of the dough. An alternate approach to this would be to place the cheese down first and then coat the top with a light layer of sauce. I then paint the dough inbetween the cheese with a layer of sauce. It takes longer to dress the skin that way, but I've found the crust to be much lighter as a result.

I have also tried just about every size of cheese. From chunks to thinly sliced 1/16th" sections (like a thin sliced deli meat). I understand Chris Bianco uses 3/4" chunks of mozzarella on his artisan pies. It obvoiusly works for Chris but I don't think he makes a 16" pie. Pizza Raquel is about 16" and thin slices seem to work better than chunks in terms of coverage. The downside with thin slices is the potential for burning. I try to use between 4 - 5 ounces of fresh mutz per pie irrespective of any other toppings.

I trust this helps.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 05:01:13 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2005, 05:29:52 PM »
As a follow up to my last post, there is another reason why I use thin slices instead of chunks. I already mentioned that chunks work better on smaller diameter pies. But they also visually convey an Italian Neapolitan pizza image. That may be the visual cue I use for Pizza Sophia (the Italian version of Raquel) which uses Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour instead of high gluten but it is not the "look" I want to have for Raquel. A minor point I know but an important one to me. It may be an over-the-top romantic point to some but I prefer to make pizzas with a certain amount of passion. Pizza made passionately seems to taste better for some reason.

As a side note, the Pizza Raquel recipe has been tested with Caputo Pizzeria flour and it was quite successful.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 06:10:28 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2005, 07:44:25 PM »
pftaylor,

I just made a batch of dough from your recipe above but I ran into a problem. I'm not sure if I measured wrong or what. I know on your older recipes you used 3 cups of flour but in your latest recipe you are now using 3 1/3 cups of flour. Anyway as I was mixing in the remaining flour I could tell the dough was getting kind of dry. So I stopped at about 3 cups instead of the 3 1/3 cups. This seems to be about right as far as looks and feel.

So I was wondering what made you change from the old recipe at 3 cups vs the new one at 3 1/3 cups?

Thanks
Chris

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2005, 07:54:37 PM »
dankfoot,
I need you to do me a favor. Can you explain where you came up with the name dankfoot? I can't wait to read your answer. Anyway, here is my response to your question.

Volume measurements are always a guess at best. Pete-zza and I have never been able to agree on any volume measurements because we have different measuring cups and spoons. Additionally, my ingredients may be more compacted then yours, or vice-versa which leads to more complications.

I would heartily suggest you weigh everything where possible. Weighing is the single best advice I can give you when you are trying to follow a recipe whether its mine or not.

I changed the amount of KASL from 3 cups to 3 1/3 because I originally shook the measuring cups a few times to get a level read. I have been told that it is not how flour is generally measured. One is supposed to gently fill the measuring cup with flour and then take a read. So by boosting the amount up by 1/3rd of a cup, it was my way to accomodate baking convention.

Weigh everything if you can.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2005, 07:59:28 PM by pftaylor »
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com


Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2005, 09:15:32 PM »
pftaylor,

I'm not real sure how to answer where that name came from. A long time ago I was trying to pick a yahoo email account and the names I kept picking were already taken so yahoo asked me a few questions and it took all my answers and put them together. I have had it ever since and now it has become a nick name.  ( Well my friends just make fun of it )

Anyway, thank you for your response. The measuring cup I used to measure the water is kind of crappy. So I had to guess on the water level. I did weigh it out to be 9 6/8 I think.  Also, in measuring the flour I kind of loosened it up and I dumped 3 1/3 cups into a bowl ( not the mixing bowl ). In your recipe you say to add the rest of the flour slowly so when I was doing that process it just looked like the dough was getting dry. So I left some flour out which im guessing about 1/3 of a cup. 

I plan on making this pie on Thursday so I will let you know how it comes out. I am still waiting on my 6 in 1's which I orderd 2 weeks ago but still have not received. I will try to take some pictures also.

Anyway thanks again.
Chris


Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2005, 09:49:01 AM »
My go at the pizza Raquel.

First, I made the dough to be like PFTaylor’s latest recipe. I found that the 3 1/3 cups of flour was getting too dry while mixing so I left some flour out and only used maybe 3 cups. After mixing I cut the dough ball into two pieces. One dough being bigger than the other. Then I covered the dough balls and let sit in the refrigerator for 3 days.

The first pizza I made was the smallest one. I made this on my pizza stone, which I have not used in over a year but I wanted to try it out. The dough was very strong and elasticity. On this pizza I had 6 in 1, Grande cheese, fresh mozz, Margharita pepperoni, Green peppers, onion, sweet sausage and fresh basil. This pizza came out only ok. But it is my fault. I wanted a good char to the crust but it ended up cooking it too much. I guess I need more practice with my stone.

2nd pie. This one came out a lot better than the first. I cooked this one on my screen. The dough was very strong and felt like you could not tear it if you tried. It felt like the dough was begging to be tossed in the air instead of being stretched but with my skills I would be picking it up off the floor or off of the ceiling fan. I got this dough stretched out to about 16 inches. On this pizza I had 6 in 1, Grande, margharita pepperoni, fresh mozz, fresh basil. This pizza had a sweet taste and a chewy bite to it. It was really good and a lot better than the first.

Notes:

This is the first time I have used the Grande cheese. After a sample bite I could tell right away it was the best cheese I have used.

This was also the first time I have used the 6 in 1 tomatoes.  After I opened the can and had a sample taste I could tell that they were really good and tasted very fresh. But I am not sure if they are any better than the Cento or Muir Glen. I guess you would have to try them side by side. They did produce a sweet taste and that was what I was after.

Fresh Mozz, I have been using this a while now but last night it seamed to produce more liquid on the top of the pizza than normal. Maybe it was fresher than normal? Not sure.

The Dough, I though this dough was killer. I need more practice with it but it’s a winner. I think next time I will not split the dough in half and will use up the entire 18 inch screen and have a big lip/crust to the next pizza.

Here are some pics but I found out my camera sucks.

PS. Thanks PFTaylor for sharing your recipe. Good Job.



Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2005, 01:09:37 PM »
Recently I took another stab at making the Raquel dough. This time around, however, I used the version of the recipe without the olive oil. Apart from using the stated baker's percents (and a thickness factor of 0.068) to downsize the recipe to produce a dough ball weight (10.42 oz.) suitable for a 14-inch pizza, the largest my pizza stone can handle, I followed pftaylor's instructions as exactly as I could. This time around I also decided to hold the dough (refrigerated) for about 3 days, to test the condition and suitability of the dough after that length of time. Previously, I used the dough about 24 hours after placing it in the refrigerator. The recipe I ended up with is as follows:

100%, Flour (KASL high-gluten), 6.13 oz. (about 1 1/4 c. + 2 T. + 1 t.)
60%, Water, 3.68 oz. (between 3/8 and 1/2 c., temp. adjusted to get a finished dough temp. of 80 degrees F)
0.0625%, IDY, 0.004 oz. (three very small pinches between the thumb and forefinger)
2%, Salt, 0.12 oz. (about 5/8 t.)
8%, Preferment, 0.49 oz. (about 1 T.)

I experienced no problems in forming the dough. However, it rose very little in the refrigerator over the three-day period. For the first two days, the round dough ball remained completely round, with no signs of spreading whatsoever in the bowl. It was only during the third day that the dough started to spread a bit. When time came to use the dough, it started to expand, rising gradually on the counter from a dough temperature in the refrigerator of about 41 degrees F to over 60 degrees F. at a room temperature of about 75 degrees F, over a roughly 2-hour time period.

I also had no difficulty shaping the dough. It handled very easily, although it seemed not to handle quite as nicely as the previous Raquel dough. Whether it was because of the lack of olive oil, the longer fermentation period (3 days versus 1 day), or the fact that I had used the "real" autolyse technique attributed by fellow member DINKS to Prof. Calvel, the bread expert, I have no idea. The latest dough had more "wrinkles" in it, but it was still quite elastic and easy to handle without the fear of ripping or holes or weak spots forming. In fact, the dough still had enough elasticity remaining after 3 days as to lead me to believe that the dough could have held out for another few days without harmful effects. I believe Varasano is correct as to his statements on his experiences with long dough life expectancies. 

Once the dough was shaped and dressed (using a simple combination of pureed LaRegina DOP San Marzano tomatoes and fresh cherry tomatoes, fresh oregano, a fresh mozzarella cheese, and a blend of grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese and grana padano cheese), it was baked for about 5 minutes on a first pizza stone that had been preheated on the lowest oven rack position for about 1 hour at a temperature of 500-550 degrees F, following which it was moved to a second pizza stone at the topmost oven rack position and exposed to about a minute of baking under the broiler element that had been turned on about 4 minutes into the baking process. The photos below show the finished product.

The finished pizza and its crust tasted fine. The crust was was very light (weight-wise), thin and chewy in the center, with a healthy degree of droop, and chewy and crunchy at the rim. The crust flavor, however, was not as pronounced and as satisfying as others I have made recently. For me, top honors for crust flavor goes to the Caputo 00 pizzas using the natural Caputo 00 preferment, no added commercial yeast, and a long counter rise at room temperature. My experiece to date is that where a commercial yeast, such as IDY, is used along with a natural preferment, the flavor is not quite as good as a dough that uses only the natural preferment. I have read of this sort of thing happening, and have heard the same from people who make sourdough breads, but am at a loss to explain it. It might also be useful to mention at this point that, just because a dough has outstanding shaping and stretching qualities, it will also produce the best overall pizza in terms of taste and satisfaction. It is somewhat counterintuitive, but some of the best pizzas I have made have come from doughs that were so questionable when it came time to shape that I thought failure was at hand. A good example of this is the Caputo 00 doughs with such high hydration that they were almost impossible to handle without their trying to tear and stick to my peel.

Since a single test hardly establishes a pattern, I plan to repeat the Raquel recipe but using the olive oil again and repeating the Prof. Calvel autolyse technique described by DINKS, along with a 3-day fermentation/retardation period. That should produce a more meaningful comparison.

Peter

Offline dankfoot

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2005, 02:10:20 PM »
Pete,

It looks good. Im ready to make another one too.

Chris

Offline scott r

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2005, 02:25:41 PM »
I have also found refrences to commercial yeast hurting the flavor of bread bakers sourdough cultures.  Would it be crazy to try the Raquel without commercial yeast, and use a little culture?  I think I will try that tomorrow.  Does anyone have any suggestions for how I should alter other aspects of the recipe/dough management?  I will be using the sourdo.com Italian starters.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2005, 03:20:09 PM »
Scott,

A while back, in connection with an experiment I conducted using a natural preferment and a small amount of IDY to make a variation of the standard Lehmann NY style dough, I invited pftaylor to try out his Raquel recipe but using only a natural preferment, and no commercial yeast. Between us, we came up with a couple of experiments for pftaylor to try. You might find it useful to read (or reread) the background and the results of pftaylor's experiments, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.120.html with Replies #134-140 and 144 et. seq. One of the things you may want to keep in mind is the amount of preferment you use for a retarded dough. You may recall that recently fellow member Crusty used a very small amount of preferment (1/2 t.) to make a retarded Lehmann NY style dough and had problems with baking the crust in a normal time frame (it took him 19 minutes). Bakerboy offered up some helpful hints to Crusty, saying

"I would use 15-20% of the weight of your flour as a starting point for how much starter to use. The hydration of your starter may change the dough consistency. If you have a soupy starter (which is fine) you may have to bump up a bit more flour. For example my "starter" is a dough that is mixed and fermented at 60% hydration....same as my pizza dough. That way, when I add my fermented dough (pate fermente) is doesn't change my hydration parameters of my pizza dough".

I look forward to your results, Scott, and am anxious to read about your assessment of the sourdo.com starter you plan to use.

Peter

« Last Edit: April 29, 2005, 03:30:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2005, 04:45:03 PM »
thanks, I can't wait to try this out.   Right now the only thing holding me up is my starter.  It has been a long, slow, recovery from my accident of underfeeding the starter, and it going into a reduced state of activity.  From the looks of things tomorrow should be the day for them to be really active.  Unfortunately I have been thinking that for the past three days!  I want to make sure these things are really rocking before I make the first dough with them.

Offline bakerboy

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2005, 05:02:28 PM »
Pete.  thats a really nice looking pie.  You could sell that.  I see you had a dough weight of a little over 10 oz.  for a 14" pizza.  mine was 24 oz for a 15" pie.  I gotta cut that back a little.
Regarding your comments about the starter and the idy, if i'm using a starter or a pate fermente, i always use that as my primary leavener and just use a little of the idy for a "push", or not at all.  The advantage, i feel, is that in using an already "ripe" or "fermented" starter, you get the benefit of it not only being the leavener but seriously contributing to the overall flavor of the final product because 20% (lets say) for your dough has already got a serious head start in the fermentation process.  If you have to use the dough as soon as its risen it will have a better depth of flavor than a dough that was risen in 1.5 hrs. by idy.  If you can retard it for a day (depending on the amount of leavening) so much the better.  My dough will last 2 days retarded and be fine.  The third day its questionable.  It usually doesn't make it for a third day but when it does we don't use it.  Too bubbly, alcoholic, and doesn't want to brown properly.

Offline varasano

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2005, 06:00:33 PM »
I have also found refrences to commercial yeast hurting the flavor of bread bakers sourdough cultures.  Would it be crazy to try the Raquel without commercial yeast, and use a little culture?  I think I will try that tomorrow.  Does anyone have any suggestions for how I should alter other aspects of the recipe/dough management?  I will be using the sourdo.com Italian starters.

It depends on the starter. With my Pasty's starter I really need some IDY. Not much., maybe 0.25%.   Each starter is totally different.  Your's may or may not need it. You can only tell by testing it yourself or by talking to someone who used that exact same starter. Did you buy Ed Wood's book?  Never mix IDY into your permanent culture. Instead you take some out of your permanent culture, mix it with the new dough and some IDY.

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Re: Pizza Raquel
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2005, 08:14:48 PM »
Bakerboy,

The dough thickness factor I used in making the dough for the most recent pizza was calculated based on the amount of dough that pftaylor uses in his Raquel recipe to make his 15"-16" pizzas. If my math is correct, his thickness factor is 0.0678 for the 16-inch size. To accurately replicate the Raquel recipe but in a smaller pizza size, I used the same thickness factor but scaled down his Raquel recipe to the 14-inch size. I used pftaylor's baker's percents to get the amount of dough I would need for the 14-inch size. The reason I asked you the size of your pizzas was because a pound and a half of dough (24 oz.) will normally produce a very thick crust for any pizza below, say, 16"-18". For your dough, I calculated that the thickness factor is 0.136 (24/(3.14 x 7.5 x 7.5) = 0.136). That would be considered a thick crust dough, and compares with around 0.10 for a typical NY style dough. It would also be about twice as thick as the crust I and pftaylor have made using his Raquel recipe. It all ultimately comes down to personal taste. Some of the better pizzas I have made were based on bread recipes rather than pizza recipes, and the crusts were as almost as thick as yours.

What you say about using 20% pate fermente or starter seems to make sense in the context of the 1- to 3-day timeframe you use. As you know, in breadmaking that percent can go as high as 50%. That really gives the dough a headstart but at the same time there is less extractable sugar in the remaining flour to allow the dough to go out too long before it starts to go downhill. I suspect in most cases that isn't a problem because the targeted timeframe is not likely to be several days.

As for selling the pizza I made, I am sure customers would be complaining that they were shortchanged because the pizza was so thin and light that they could eat the whole thing (just as I did) and still be hungry. Your pizzas would sell much better because they have real heft, and that is what most people seem to prefer. 

Peter
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 12:05:23 PM by Pete-zza »


 

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