Pizza Raquel

[Pete-zza]

Your most recent pizza looks good to me.

You might want to try adding some dairy whey to your dough to get better browning. I would try around 2% (by weight of flour). Ordinary baker's flour will not itself produce a crust with much browning because it is low in protein. The higher the protein, the more crust browning, generally. You can see and read about the browning improvement from using dairy whey by going to the A16 thread, where I reported on the results I achieved from using dairy whey with Italian 00 flour, which naturally tends to produce lighter crusts.

Peter

[GioTurano]

The biggest 'browning gap' is between the cheese and the top rim. If I use broil, cheese burns in 3-4min, dough
still needs about twice as long. I've overcome this before by adding honey, which closed the gap and allowed the
dough to brown at the 5min mark. But if I stick to a un-sweetend recipe, could it simply be that my cheese is
too sensitive? (Yes, I am cutting it before hand into big chunks and freezing it prior to use)

In anycase, I can't find fior de latte in Australia. Boccincini is everywhere though. What's the difference between the
two? I will see if fresh cheese improves the situation.

First, let me say that that's a beautiful pie.  Yeah, maybe the cheese is a little more brown than you'd like, but there might be a simple solution to that.

I was also experiencing cheese problems, but I remedied the situation by lowering the temperature of my oven from 500 (as high as it will go) to 480, and introducing a "rest" period for the pie.  I take it out of the oven just as the cheese begins to bubble (after perhaps three minutes), let it sit on a wire rack for three minutes, then pop it back in until the crust is brown and eager to do my bidding.  This allows the cheese to cool long enough to give the crust a little extra time to do its thing, and it gives the stone a chance to reclaim a little heat, as well.  I'm thinking of experimenting with 460 a few times, just to see what might happen. 

This is not standard NY operating procedure, of course, but then again I'm living in pizza purgatory and have to make do with the tools at hand in order to produce the results that I desire.  The finest cheese available in my area is Sorrento fresh mozz (at a 40-mile round trip), and it seems to do best when applied cold beneath a few dollops of tomato.  Forget anything that says it's low-moisture; even the whole milk low-moisture cheeses that I've used have all been vastly disappointing, and will brown almost immediately. 

Good luck.

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Thanks for the kind words.

All the suggestions are good but something fundamental baffles me.
A pizza will cook, given enough time, from anywhere between 400-800
degrees. Ideally, all the ingredients cook 'in-sycn'. That is, at any given
temperature, when the pie is ready, all toppings and base is ready.

It seems this is only possible at certain temperatures or with certain
types of ingredients. At 700-800, this seem to work just fine. Numerous
woodfire and high temp ovens (Jeff's, Pftalor's) have shown this. Rim
and cheese will cook 'in-sycn'.

At 500, I (and a few others it would seem) can't get this to happen.
Not without some high-glutein flour anyway. But at 700-800, it seems
high-glutein is not as important anymore; browning will occur anyway.

I have also taken Tom's comments about lowering cooking temps into
heart. In my mind, they do and should produce a superior flavoured
crust. But this runs completely opposite to the Neopolitanan tradition
of 1-2min fast bakes.

All this is, quite franky, very confusing. But it sure is fun! 

Tonight I will try lower temps and a new cheese. Let's see how it goes.

[MTPIZZA]

one more little trick I have used is to just assemble the pie putting on all ingrediants EXCEPT the cheese...cook the pie to your liking heck take the crust all the way till almost charred if you like...the sauce, oil and toppings won't mind...then, about 5 minutes or so before its done...remove and spread your cheese around -- place back in the oven for an additional 2 minutes or longer,...and POOF!! perfect pie....no burnt cheese it melts and stays stringy etc.. --you get my drift!...have fun it works try it!...(it does'nt affect the taste one bit only makes the pizza excellent in the end result)...

[pftaylor]

Well, I'm back. After traveling almost five days a week for the past couple of months, things have finally slowed down for this home pizza maker. It wasn't all work though. My only mistake was not bringing a camera along to record my stops.

Therefore, I'd like to share a few written pizza moments along the way. First, I had the opportunity to visit fellow member "bakerboy" in Wilmington Delaware. What a nice guy. He welcomed me into his new bakery and proudly showed off his baking toys and his prized possession; a huge oven which will no doubt produce some of the best pizza in the Delaware Valley.

His neighborhood is clamoring for quality pie and bakerboy intends on delivering. Now pizza isn't his first love as it most certainly is baking fresh bread. All kinds of fresh breads. I came away from our discussion thinking bakerboy could bake anything well from pretzels to rolls to artisan bread and pizza. It is his passion. Bakerboy shared with me a lot about baking. Who knew it was so complex? 

A couple of weeks later I had the pleasure of spending a free hour or two in NYC. The closest quality pizza joint was Naples 45 so I decided to try it. I have read mixed reviews about this place and wasn't sure it would be a pleasurable pie experience. And it wasn't at first.

I ordered a Margherita pizza and when it was delivered it contained none of the ingredients (other than Caputo flour) that a true Neapolitan Margherita should have. So I did what any red-blooded New Yorker would have done and I complained. Loudly I might add which is the only way to get attention in that city.

Where was my Bufala Mozz?
What about my San Marzano's?
And my perfectly charred pie?
VPN certified?  I don't think so!

I rained down my refrain to any Naples 45 employee who would listen. After complaining to uninterested hourly employees for what seemed like an eternity, an off-duty head pizzaiolo (been there for about ten years) responded to my concerns with a thoughtful 45 minute conversation about pizza. He tested my pizza knowledge by throwing a few easy pitches my way and after I pulled each one into the stands he confessed the truth. Simply stated, the restaurant still serves Neapolitans only with the changes I mentioned above. He made amends by making a "real" Margherita which was fabulous. It still didn't contain real San Marzano tomatoes. It still wasn't baked much above 500 - 600 degrees by the Woodstones. But it did have a mixture of Caputo flours (Red & Blue) and real Bufala Mozz and the biggest previously missing ingredient - the trained hand of a true pizzaiolo. He ended up baking the pie himself and raised the pie to the ceiling, for the last 30 seconds, to get the necessary char which any respectable char craving home pizza maker should expect from a certified VPN establishment. Truth be told, I bet they are no longer serving true Neapolitan pizzas except to those who specificially request it (off menu) and then it still won't be entirely up to spec. Still, nonetheless, the second pie was delicious.

The highlight of my pizza travels took me back to NYC last week and I had a chance to visit to my favorite all-time pizza joint to get even with Jose the pizzaiolo. Jose had a big laugh at my expense when he tried to convince me during my last visit that his recipe included sugar. He evened the score by making a Margherita for the ages - quidoPizza style. Which is to say, baked twice. What a great tasting pie. Twice as good as the second Naples 45 effort. I'm still grinning from the experience.

None of the problems I experienced from my last visit seemed to be present. Also, I managed to engage John the owner in a thoughtful conversation. What a relevation. His angle in all of this is purely business. He is not a pizza maker. He proudly states that he doesn't know and doesn't want to know how to make pizzas. That's Jose's job. John is in it for the real estate play which just happens to have a pizzeria located on his block (and a well hidden parking lot for those patrons that want a convenient place to park). Now I don't want to suggest he is just a money-grubbing investor who will run down the pizzeria into the veritable ground. Quite the contrary. He realizes the goldmine of pizza history he owns and is taking numerous steps to capitalize upon them. I now have the sense that Patsy's Pizza is in good hands. He is a true business man first and then a lover of pizza. I came away from our conversation thinking that he ended up investing in something he loves. Afterall, he grew up just a few blocks from Pepe's & Sally's in New Haven.

The once dangerous Harlem neighborhood is being revitalized all around him as I learned by having my driver take me around the nearby area as I was wasting time waiting for Patsy's to open on the day of my visit. As crazy as it may sound, there are million dollar town houses being built within walking distances. As John was showing me the numerous bullet holes in his store's facade, it was hard not to wonder how much money he will make in the next few years off his entrepreneurial vision. Patsy's Pizza is in good hands with John. I will go back every chance I get.

One last point, John allowed me to closely inspect the coal fired oven which Jose has labored with since 1976. I think I may have found out the reason why a Patsy's pizza tastes significantly better than any other pie I have personally put in my mouth. Simply put, the oven has a very low and slightly curved ceiling - much like what pizzanapoletana has discussed in intimate detail with his Napoli pizza ovens. I would be willing to bet that Patsy himself knew something about the difference between authentic Neapolitan ovens and the bread ovens that Lombardi's and Grimaldi's have. 

Finally, I have attached my Labor Day pizza effort just so that there is some relevance to my Patsy's visit. It was made with the Varasano preferment which is based on the Harlem neighborhood yeast strain which has been fermenting since 1933. It produced a truly delicious pie.

This is a great hobby!

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Nice field report pftaylor, enjoyed every bit of it! What kind of questions did
the Naples 45 chef ask? Must have been fun.

Will definitely visit Patsy's next time to New York.

BTW, great looking pie as usual.

-James

[pftaylor]

JF_Aidan_Pryde,

The head Pizzaiolo was initially playing games with all his answers to my questions. For instance, when I asked why the pie I was served did not have Fresh Bufala Mozzarella on it he claimed it did. I assured him that fresh mutz doesn't look anything like the gue that was on my pie. He asked what should it look like? I responded with a white porcelain color not a yellowish tint. He conceded by saying that they have the "real" mutz in the back. I asked why I had to pay $16 for whole mutz when the menu clearly stated otherwise. He conceded that most people don't know the difference.

Flabbergasted, I moved on to the metallic tasting tomatoes. I guessed that they were not true San Marzano tomatoes. He claimed they were true Italian plum tomatoes. I continued by asking if they were DOP? He had to concede they were from California and were San Marzano style. What was that I politely asked? He claimed they were good enough.

I pressed further by asking how the restaurant could be VPN certified when they employed such inferior products. He then went on a rant about how Italians can't agree on anything much less how a real Neapolitan pizza should be dressed. I responded by stating that a traditional Neapolitan Margherita should at least have San Marzanos, Bufala (or at least fresh) mutz, and Italian flour (preferrably Caputo).

When the conversation finally turned to hydration levels he indicated that his was 85%. At this point I asked him to get real because no one on this planet can make a pie with that hydration level. He explained how he has no idea what his hydration level is due to not weighing any ingredients. His approach is to put a 5 gallon bottle of water to a mixture of Red & Blue Caputo. His basis for the approach apparently stems from one of the Molino boys who regularly visits from Italy. It turned out to be the turning point in terms of pizza respect and he stated that unlike most of the people that claim to know what a real Neapolitan pie should be, I proved to him to be knowledgeable. 

He then asked if he could make a pie for me at no charge and asked one of his bus boys to fetch a ball of cheese. He then made a great tasting Margherita which we shared over a pleasant discussion about NY pizza versus Neapolitan pizza. The resultant pie couldn't of been any more different from the trash I was originally served. It was baked to perfection.

He asked me to come back on my next visit and be sure to ask for him which I promised I would.

[Pete-zza]

pft,

When I first visited Naples 45, I was in the learning stage of Neapolitan style pizzas. I had read the Naples 45 pizza menu in advance (online) and saw the Margherita DOC pizza on the menu. However, I didn't pay much attention to whether I would get a truly authentic Margherita pizza because I had seen similar references in menus elsewhere where it was clear from the descriptions that they weren't authentic. I also knew from my reading that the VPN regulations were broad in many respects, not always strictly enforced, often reviled, and that there were holes in them that one could drive a truck through. I personally was more interested in the 00 flour and the crust since all I was using at the time were the Bel Aria and Delverde 00 flours which very few professional pizza operators were using at the time to make authentic Neapolitan style pizzas. Also, while I was full of book knowledge on authentic Neapolitan style pizzas, I had never had a Neapolitan style pizza baked in a high-temperature wood-fired oven before, only my home oven.

When I spoke at length with the chief pizza maker, Charlie, he made no effort to conceal what cheeses and tomatoes he was using. He pointedly said that he used both imported fresh mozzarella cheese and fresh local mozzarella cheese and both San Marzano and other plum tomatoes (my recollection is that he said they were imported). I specifically recall his mentioning that the fresh imported mozzarella cheese tended to get a "sour" taste fairly quickly (according to his taste at least) and that if he used only San Marzano tomatoes, his volume of pizza production (several hundreds a day just during the lunch period) would consume just about the entire production (he said this somewhat jokingly). He also mentioned that the restaurant was using a domestic source of water to simulate the chemical compostion of Naples water in lieu of importing the water as they had previously been doing. Our conversation could not have been nicer or more informative for this novitiate and, as I have reported elsewhere, it was Charlie's help, along with the importer, that I was introduced to the Caputo 00 flour and got my first Care package of the flour to experiment with and to report on at the forum.

I agree that it is not proper to sell something other than as represented on the menu, whether it is a Margherita pizza or anything else. And while I don't condone the practice, the fact is that it happens all the time, and diners apparently allow chefs and cooks to engage in a form of "license" in the precise ingredients used. Restaurant reviewers and critics frequently comment on this practice when they see a disconnect between what menus say and what they actually get (it's usually missing ingredients, substituted ingredients, or use of only trace amounts of important ingredients).

You did the right thing in holding Naples 45's feet to the fire (no pun intended). Knowing what I know today, I would do the same thing.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Pete-zza,
Thanks for jogging my memory regarding the head pizzaiolo's name. Charlie was who I spoke with.

I also forgot to mention that the Woodstone oven was advertised as being wood-fired when in fact, according to my memory, it was burning gas. Charlie intimated that it could burn either and they routinely burned both. I saw no evidence of wood stacked anywhere. I asked how hot he could get the oven with gas and he didn't seem to know. He handled the question along the lines of it is easier to pump out pies with a gas oven.

It was clear to me that he was mildly annoyed (at both me and the restaurant staff) that he had to address the issues I presented on one of his days off. His entire staff knew little or nothing about pizzas.

According to Charlie, he gave up on true San Marzano tomatoes when the taste didn't match the price. He suggested that the California tomatoes they are now using taste better than what they could get from Italy. My tastebuds told me otherwise due to the citric acid aftertaste they imparted. I agreed with him that the best tomatoes probably do not leave Italy.

[Pete-zza]

pft,

When I was first there, I saw wood stacked up near the ovens.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Pete-zza,
I could be wrong on the source of heat utilized by Naples 45. But I could swear it was gas. I noticed several bags of Red & Blue Caputo flour stacked up underneath the main pizza making station but alas, no wood.

The overall issue I had with the restaurant (and the industry in general) was the extent of the intentional deception. Everything other than their use of Caputo flour screamed "it's good enough." Yet all their advertising trumpeted their attention to authenticity. I noticed on their web site that they claim to use ovens imported from Italy. If I'm not mistaken, the two ovens I examined were Woodstones. A subtle but telling point.

The stark difference was brought to the surface when I visited Patsy's shortly after the Naples 45 episode. John (the owner) and Jose (the pizza maker) never proclaimed to use a higher quality ingredient list than what was actually used. I have often lamented the fact that they use "cheap" ingredients. I have often dreamed of what could be produced by Patsy's oven if only their focus was quality and attention to detail. The actual execution of what Naples 45 claims to offer.

When John freed up the time to speak with me about pizza, I decided to investigate the notion of what Patsy's means to him. He never imagined being the owner of a pizza joint. It just sort of happened. As such, he hasn't rocked the boat regarding the pizza making operation. But he was open to the concept of improvement and I jumped at the opportunity to discuss what could be possible.

My guess would be that since 1933, Patsy's used roughly the same questionable quality of ingredients available to them - canned tomatoes, local mutz, and American flour (fresh yeast was and still is used however). They probably bought ingredients on price in 1933, and still do today, but that is exactly what makes Patsy's so very perplexing to me - the use of semi sub-standard ingredients baked in an ultra-hot oven to produce what could be arguably the best NY style pie available.

Funny thing about Patsy's oven, it may be the most authentic Neapolitan oven in the city and John and Jose had no idea about the implication of that statement. They just knew that it's the original oven (although it was moved slightly from its original location where the bar is now). Wouldn't it be ironic if Patsy's has a real Napoli oven? I would appreciate it if other fellow members could weigh in on this aspect during future visits. To my eye, it appears to perfectly reflect the principles which pizzanapoletana has described in other posts.

John may not have the passion of a true pizza man, but he is the consumate business man and that is what it takes to produce gobs of profit but sadly not the best NY or Neapolitan pie in the city. When we openly discussed his decision to franchise the Patsy's name across the city, he seemed to think it was a great business decision. It was his way to keep the Patsy's flame alive so to speak.

And it very well may be, but as I very humbly inquired what his plans were to uphold the Patsy's tradition beyond franchising, he had a blank expression.  When the conversation eventually moved to trying to increase the quality of his pizza offerings by honoring the Neapolitan heritage of the original owner, it was as if I steered John into a higher level of thinking about what could be accomplished. The light bulb went off.

John seemed to be very interested in how he could make Jose's pizzas more authentic rather than less. I suggested he already made one of the best, if not the best, NY style pizzas available but that there were other variations that could be made that paid homage to Naples Italy and a higher quality NY style that would once and for all end the bickering (hopefully) as to who makes the best pie in the city. John expressed true interest in developing both a true high quality NY style with better cheese and tomatoes as well as an authentic Neapolitan pizza with Bufala mutz, Caputo flour, and San Marzano tomatoes. It made sense to him as he saw the coming market with all the rich neighbors streaming into the area. It was a concept he knew little about though because his New Haven upbringing never exposed him to either style.

Time will tell if he acts on the opportunity I vividly painted or not. We promised to keep in touch and exchanged phone numbers. I can only imagine how delicious a high quality Patsy's pie would be.

One day I hope to bite into that dream...

[Pete-zza]

pft,

Knowing the fallibilty of memories, I perhaps should have said that my memory was of seeing wood. At the time I had not heard of Wood Stone, but I do note from the Wood Stone website that they do sell units that can use both gas and wood. The original ovens were wood-fired only. My recollection of the ovens themselves is that at least a part of them, possibly a volcanic material (?), did come from Italy. I don't know if that makes sense, possibly to be in compliance with the VPN rules?

I did find my notes of my first Naples 45 visit and everything I said earlier today about the cheese and tomatoes was as I recorded it except that Charlie said (jokingly) that his production of pizzas would use up half of the entire San Marzano production, not all of it.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Pete-zza,
Thanks for the clarification.

One other point, I actually have no issue with Wood Stone ovens (or any other for that matter). I want to be quite clear on that point.

My issue is with how the restaurant advertises their ovens versus my observations on the day I visited. I'm sure they could produce massive amounts of heat with wood. Whether Charlie uses wood or gas is nearly irrelevant because they had a very small flame anyway. I'd bet they were 500 - 600 degrees at the most. I silently timed one of the 10" pies being baked and it was just over 3 minutes. The standard 10" pie crust was very thin as well, so the oven could not of been very hot. Granted, I was there at lunch time so the place was not very full and they may not of had the oven cranked to a high temperature.

When Charlie slid his long-handled peel under my second pie after a couple of baking minutes, I noticed he lifted it toward the top of the oven. It produced a marvelous char as a result. It appeared to be perfectly cooked, something that I hadn't noticed from his other pizza makers.

Finally, I also remember Charlie telling me he used to maintain a Biga years ago. It is no longer being used due to the difficulty of keeping it maintained but he agreed it added plenty of crust flavor. For the record, Charlie was the first pizzaiolo I have spoken with that acknowledged it's mere existence let alone it's incorporation in a commercial venture.

[pftaylor]

Rather than wait for Patsy's to improve the quality of their pizza, I decided to make my interpretation of a high quality NY style pizza. Here is the tale of the tape:
- KASL flour
- Sicilian sea salt
- Bottled water
- IDY
- La Valle DOP San Marzano tomatoes
- Garden grown basil and oregano
- Freshly cracked black pepper
- Biazzo Fresh Mozzarella with a light dusting of Reggie Parm
- Perfect char compliments of a 3 minute bake on a Tec grill
- Varasano preferment based on fermentations and mutations since 1933
- Juicy and thick pepperoni

The above was prepared using the Pizza Raquel Formulary featuring a 3 day cold rise. The below lasted scant seconds before it was devoured by the Pizza Raquel faithful (my family).
 

[pftaylor]

I'm not sure why the above pictures were blurry but perhaps the photographs of Pizza Raquel #2, shot this evening, will present a clearer picture of why I'm so satisfied with my current results. On the slice shot, it has just a hint of tip droop while handling like a great NY slice should.

[pftaylor]

Final shots...

[GioTurano]

PFT,

Beautiful, even in the blurry shots.

What do you think of the Biazzo?  I was able to get it for a few weeks at Wal-Mart, of all places, and then they discovered that I liked it, so they stopped carrying it.     I've also tried Il Villaggio fior di latte, which wasn't terrible, and Sorrento fresh, which was surprisingly good for a big brand.

Enjoyed your trip stories. 

[pftaylor]

GioTurano,
Thanks for your kind words.

I happen to think Biazzo Fresh mutz is a good value and a solid choice for elite NY style (Patsy's, Grimaldi's Lombardi's, etc.) home pie making. I prefer it to more expensive yellowish whole milk mutz such as Grande which may be better for NY street style pizza (think greasy, gooey, run-down-your-arm type pies). It is clearly not the finest example of fresh mutz, but I would rank it as a top tier cryo packed fresh mutz which is generally available to home pizza makers.

With a little tinkering here and there, such as freezing it ever so slightly before placing on a skin (to lessen the chance of burning), it is more than manageable. From a cost perspective it is hard to beat at roughly $2.25lb through Sam's Club. I have noticed that it doesn't perform quite as well when sliced in thin strips for some reason. The best performance I have been able to coax out of it has been when I rip small chunks off the ball and place it randomly on the skin. That way the stringy strength of the cheese remains intact and it seems to melt in place with a blotch without burning as easily.

[Ronzo]

pft...


*breathless* she's a beautiful thing to behold.

[pftaylor]

nytxn,
Thank you for your comments. They are truly appreciated.

One of the lesser known aspects of Pizza Raquel, and Sophia for that matter, is that I endeavor to balance the macro-nutrient composition of their recipes. I am an advocate of creating a 40%-30%-30% balance of carbohydrates to protein to fat.  This is no small feat due to flour being a mega contributor to carbohydrates. Made in this manner, one can consume up to four slices of killer tasting pizza without any fear of gaining weight. Guiltless sleep alone is worth the price of admission.

Just one more reason to admire Raquel and Sophia...