Pizza Raquel

[pftaylor]

Bill/SFNM,
Thanks for your keen observation. The lack of implementing the Bromwell's sifter potentially could turn out to be a rather large oversight. I had it in my cabinet all this time and never connected the dots on its application with pizza. 

If my understanding of what Pete-zza and November have stated is correct, the attendant benefits from the Bromwell's usage might allow the following:
1) A better, more complex crumb structure which might get Raquel all the way to the "Wafer thin exterior and silly-soft interior"
2) More flavor in the crust whether with IDY or wild yeast
3) A longer rise - up to 10 eye-popping days in the fridge
4) Significantly higher hydration without jeopardizing the robust handling characteristics

The possibilities are endless due to the cascading effect of this one change. Who knows how it will impact everything else but it will be fun trying.

Pete-zza,
We have the same 5 cup sifter. Small world isn't it. One further question if I may impose. Have you tried double sifting and if so, is there a benefit?

[Pete-zza]

pftaylor,

I viewed the sifting of the flour simply as a mechanism for improving the hydration of the flour by taking a flour that may have compacted over time and separating the grains of flour so that they might absorb water more efficiently. I also used the whisk and other implements, a low machine speed, and I also added the yeast toward the end, which I suspect played a role in the overall results. I was not looking for a 10-day old dough. I was just looking to produce a superior handling dough, just like your Raquel dough. I don't even know if there is a demand for a 10-day old dough. All I can say for now is that it is possible to produce such a dough. I really don't know what is material and what is not at this point.

As for double sifting of the flour, that is the only way I have done it so far. Maybe a single sifting is sufficient. I just haven't gotten around to trying it yet. I have been focusing my efforts to date on the principles that seem to have the best potential payback. The ultimate objective is to produce a better pizza, not merely a different pizza.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Pete-zza,
I understand your point(s). Consider my work to be an adjunct to what you are pursuing. We will probably take a different path from where each other are headed but we may both end up in the same spot - or not.

If sifting flour leads to better absorption capability for flour then I am hopeful that by being able to dramatically increase the hydration percentage (hopefully without changing the handling characteristics) it will lead to a better crumb structure and ultimately a better crust. I know, I know, that's a lot of ifs but so what. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Another point I would like to investigate is something scott r mentioned to me some time ago. Perhaps he can clarify my memory but I seem to remember him stating that he began using the DLX only for the "messy" part of mixing dough. Once the dough came together he reverted to a hand kneading regimen which seemed to elevate his crumb. What I want to do is investigate that premise (if I remember it correctly) and combine it with multiple variations along the lines of what you are doing with the Bromwell's and ultimately with yeast.

That's how I plan to get a better Raquel.

[November]

pftaylor,

I wouldn't over-think it too much.  If I were choosing from your list of benefits, I would say the only intended and perceivable ones would be half of #1 and all of #4.  It will definitely provide for a better crumb, but I wouldn't say it is any more complex.  If anything, it's really less complex because you don't have such an unpredictable amount of non-hydrated flour particles mixed with the hydrated ones.  It's far more completely hydrated, which makes the crumb simple, and the outcome predictable.

If you sift the flour once, that is double-sifted.  The flour already comes pre-sifted.  I see no need in triple-sifting.

I use a stainless steel bowl sieve because I can operate it with one hand and sift 500g of flour in about 6 seconds.

- red.november

[pftaylor]

November,
Thanks for your considerable insight. You must be employed in a field which requires ultimate precision with the English language. I will try to choose my words much more carefully in the future. Hence, I ask for forgiveness. Complex is not what I really tried to convey. My goal is to design a crust with a compressive nature which exhibits ample spring. Perhaps an even  more precise term would be a high coefficient of restitution. I want to be able to squeeze the rim between my fingers and have it return to its original state. I desire the crumb to be airy with numerous irregular shaped holes. That's a tall order but hopefully achievable.

Here are my notes from this morning's mix:

I sifted the flour twice (for a total of three times - thanks November) with the Bromwell’s. I normally mix for only ten minutes (adding flour for the first five and mixing for the final five). However this time I was adding the flour over the complete ten minute mixing period on stir speed. It seemed a shame to add the flour at a faster rate. I remembered pizzanapoletana’s words “slowly rain the flour down” so that is exactly what I did and it naturally took the entire ten minutes. Once all the flour was added I mixed for another two minutes for a total of twelve and then followed my standard Raquel procedure.

The dough was finished at a 74.5 degree temperature and appeared somewhat tackier than normal. Which is an odd observation since I did not adjust the hydration percentage upward on this batch? I will be interested in seeing if it remains so after the 15 minute rest period after mixing.

After the rest period, the dough was still tacky. The attached photographs support my observation. How can this be? Like so much in pizzamaking, change one variable and who knows what to expect.  I thought sifting was supposed to result in the exact opposite result I witnessed.

And perhaps it did. I must have unknowingly upped the hydration without realizing it. Where to point the finger though?

Could it be the ultra precise digital scales I use? Maybe but I doubt it.

Could it be the thin layer of flour which stuck to the sifting bowl I used for the first time? I doubt that too since all that was left was a fine dust of KASL.

Ah! I think I figured it out. In my haste to freshen the famed Varasano starter, I left it with a very low coefficient of viscosity. So perhaps that will explain the apparent additional hydration when it isn’t supposed to be there. My guess is the hydration which is shown in the dough balls is closer to 65% than not. I really don’t like cleaning gooey dough from my hands but let’s see where this takes me.

Tomorrow I will grill one or two of the three balls. The last one I will leave in the fridge for a few days.

[David]

dramatically increase the hydration percentage (hopefully without changing the handling characteristics)

I've always found the handling to change at one stage or another with increased hydration.I think that the initial appearance of an increasingly hydrated dough can be deceptive and IMO only when you actually come to divide your dough do the difficulty of the handling characteristics become apparent.

[Pete-zza]

If you sift the flour once, that is double-sifted.  The flour already comes pre-sifted.  I see no need in triple-sifting.

November,

Would it matter if the flour came in a 50 lb. bag, as it did in my case with the KASL? That was the reason I sifted twice (thrice), thinking that it was perhaps more compacted than in a small bag, but if it is unnecessary even in that case I would dispense with the additional sifting step.

Peter

[November]

pftaylor,

Yes, precision in both diction and everything else is prerequisite for me.  A tackier dough is what would be generally expected when more thoroughly hydrating your flour.

Peter,

Although there is more compaction in a 50 lb. bag of flour, I still can't conceive of a reason to sift it for a third time.  If you notice a difference, by all means continue, but I imagine there is a steep diminishing return on your extra effort.

- red.november

[Peteg]

Hey guys,
        Not sure if this is the right place to post the results from my latest experiment but hopefully someone will find this helpful.  This experiment came as a result of pft’s comment about Italian fork mixers producing a far superior crumb than our KA’s are capable of.  The test consisted of making two different sets of dough made to the exact same standards.  The only difference was that one was mixed in the KA for 20 minutes while I hand kneaded the other.  The recipe is the same that I have been using for some time now consisting of Caputo, water, salt and fresh starter.  The hydration for both was almost exactly at 61% and the starter weighed in at 35% the weight of flour.  I’m posting this here because for the first time, I double sifted the flour before mixing.  Pizza and November certainly deserve a great deal of credit for convincing the rest of us to remember this often overlooked step.  I for one don’t see myself ever making a pizza without taking the extra minute to sift the flour.  As far as the rise goes, it was roughly a 20 hour warm rise.  I say warm but a warm rise for me is much different than for Pizza, PFT or Varasano.  With that said my warm rise occurred at roughly 63 for the first ten hours in bulk rise and once portioned rose for another 10 at roughly 55.  On to the results, the crumb structure in both pies were somewhat more consistent than my typical pies with the same percentages.  This I can only attribute to the sifting of flour.  As for the difference between the two and whether there is a clear reason to hand knead or purchase a fork mixer instead of the KA, it was close with the upper hand going to the hand kneaded pie.  In the pictures that follow you’ll see greater voids and nice hole structure from the hand kneaded dough.  The KA dough was close but not quite there.  The KA dough also felt considerably more wet than the hand kneaded dough which tells me that the mixer doesn’t do as complete a job as a man or another machine possibly could.  The first two pics are from the hand kneaded dough and the second two from the KA dough.  By the way, the rest of the dough is in the fridge right now and since my best pizzas are typically after a 3 day rise, I’m looking forward to Monday.  Hope this helps, Peteg

[pftaylor]

Peteg,
Thanks for sharing. Your pizza looks delicious and appears authentic. Where did you say your pizzeria was located?

Photographs are an invaluable tool in our hobby as I can visually discern a difference in crumb from the hand kneaded and the KA crusts. The hand kneaded crumb has larger and more irregular holes and looks less like bread. Very nice work.
Did they taste any differently?
Was the tooth and mouth feel any different?
Was the texture any different?
If so, how?

So that I can clearly point to my crumb goal, the attached photograph from pizzanapoletana's friend, Ciro, serves as the reference standard (in my opinion). Now I just have to get there.

[David]

Peteg.Outstanding.

[Peteg]

Pft,
   No pizzeria, just homemade pizza the way I like it.  I’m in Madison, WI where temps are in the low 20’s this weekend which has a lot to do with my last low “room temp” rise.  You mentioned the difference in flavor and texture.  The difference in flavor was absent while there certainly was a difference in texture.  The cornicone of the KA dough was more bread like which led to a chewier crust.  Over all, I much preferred the texture of the hand knead as it had the interior structure that I have always been striving for.  As for feel, the hand knead was a bit more moist than the KA but that could very well have been because the KA cooked for 15 seconds longer than the hand knead.  The hand knead cooked for 2:40 while the KA cooked for 2:55.  I’ve got three more dough balls from each batch so I should get a chance to run this comparison again over the next couple of days.  I think for the next set, I’ll give them the initial 2:30 blast of heat and then reduce the heat for an extra 30-40 seconds.  This always seems to give me the crispness that I’m looking for.  Take care, Peteg

[Peteg]

thanks david.

[Pete-zza]

Peteg,

Thanks for conducting the experiments and posting your results. The pizzas look great.

As I noted previously in another thread, the idea of sifting the flour was not new with me. I last contemplated the idea after I had an exchange in Nov. 2005 with member dodude who, in response to a question I posed to him about why he sifted his flour, responded as follows:

As for sifting the flour...I think it just comes from my breadmaking experience. I was of the mind that packed flour tends to compress, and before combining with water you'd want to expose more surface area on the flour particles for quicker and more complete absorption. You're probably right that it shouldn't matter either way, but I guess it's just an old habit.

I replied that I planned to try sifting the flour sometime but it wasn’t until November mentioned sifting in a formulation he posted that I figured that he was onto something since he doesn’t do anything without a purpose and knowing why.

The next step you might want to consider is to use the whisk attachment of your mixer to further improve the hydration of the flour. That step is simply an extension of the cold knead that Jeff talks about and, I believe, is consistent with what pizzanapoletana (Marco) has advocated in that the flour is more completely hydrated without significant, if any, gluten development. If one doesn’t have a whisk attachment, a simple hand beater or electric hand mixer can be used. I suggested this option recently to one of our new members, rende, who chose to use an electric hand mixer (he doesn’t have a stand mixer) and, as noted here, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4152.msg35189.html#msg35189, apparently achieved good results. While I haven’t tried it myself, I think that one can switch to hand kneading to finish making a dough after using the beater to its maximum potential (just when you can’t add more flour to the water and easily mix them). Under these circumstances, one wouldn’t need to have a stand mixer, just a sifter or sieve and a hand or electric hand mixer.

Maybe you've covered this before, but can you tell us how you are baking your pizzas, in terms of oven method/temperature, stone, etc.?

Peter

[Peteg]

Pete-zaa,
              I was actually planning on trying the whisk with my next dough.  I typically try to change only one thing at time.  With the last dough, I was already adding sifting to the typical mixing regimen so I thought it was best to stop there.  My oven is a regular home oven on the clean cycle. I keep the stone on the rack second from the top where it’s flanked with clay tiles to add surface area.  Peteg

[David]

  The hydration for both was almost exactly at 61% and the starter weighed in at 35% the weight of flour. 

 .....I'm not understanding this?

[Peteg]

David, hopefully this helps.  The starter consists of 50% water & 50% flour by weight.  In other words, 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water.  The total starter at 200 grams is 35% of the flour weight at 571 grams.  Of course by adding 200 grams of starter were also adding 100 grams of flour and taking the total flour weight to 671 but why complicate things.           

Ingredient   Grams    Bakers %  Total %      
Flour         571.00    100.00%     53.77%
Water       277.00    60.98%     26.08%
Salt           14.00        2.45%         1.32%
starter       200.00    35.03%     18.83%
               1,062.00       

[pftaylor]

I made all three pies tonight as my family wanted to compare against the recent NYC pies we ate. Good news is, everyone chose Pizza Raquel over anything we ate up north. It really wasn't a fair comparison either. Even though the famed varasano preferment was not at its peak, it still infused significant flavor into the crust which left the others in the dust. Texture wise was hard to tell because we all loved the flavor and the softness of the crust.

Regarding the impact of sifting the flour, here are my observations:
- The dough was much wetter than normal
- The robustness and overall uniformity were still present but the dough was softer
- The texture really wasn't improved like I had hoped
- Once the crust cooled it still stayed soft which was in stark contrast to the NYC pies we ate

To be fair the results were a little skewed since the dough was only 29 hours old. Normally I make pizza at least three days after the dough is made and the preferment is normally raging with activity.

A few other changes crept into my pizza making tonight and I blame it all on a new BJ's which opened near my home. I used a different type of tomato which was chock full of seeds. Nice bright and fresh flavor but too many seeds to recommend. Second I tried a new type of fresh mozzarella cheese which was really wet and required all sorts of drying effort. Shame because it tasted okay.

[pftaylor]

More

[pftaylor]

Final shots and final thoughts. I need to make more pizza more often. I was not nearly as confident tonight as I should have been. Practice does make perfect and when it comes to pizza truer words were never spoken. Raquel knew I was out of practice and it showed...