Pizza Raquel

[Barry]

Hi pftaylor,

I like your wooden box idea for the final rise. I may also try it, as the plastic box that I currently use is just a little too small. The balls often fuse into one another, despite covering them with flour. I guess I would increase the dimentions by 10 - 15% .

The pic below is from my trip to Salvo near Naples, Italy, and it shows them using a plastic box - like the one I currently use.

Kind regards.

Barry

[pftaylor]

Barry,
I remember reading about the Italian version of the FDA or health department forcing pizzerias away from wood dough boxes and toward plastic. Your photograph just confirmed it. I can't help but imagine the new rule hurts the dough in some small way...

On another note, Santa put Six Thousand Years of Bread by H. E. Jacob in my stocking rather than coal and it is a flat out must read for all passionate pizza makers. It isn’t a cookbook or even a book about pizza but it is a fascinating read. If I may, kindly allow me to share a most beautiful and deeply moving passage:

“A seed grows into a grass that yields more seeds, some of which are harvested and destroyed, pulverized into a powder called flour. The once life-giving seeds are combined with water and salt to make clay and the clay is leavened with yeast.

With this act the baker has engaged the Promethean challenge: he (or she) has raised an Adam (which translated means clay) and brought that clay to life. The clay, now called dough, undergoes numerous transformations as its enzymes rearrange the starchy molecules and release hidden sugars; the sugars are then transformed by bacteria and yeast fungi into acids, alcohols, and gasses. The dough grows and develops character; the baker divides and shapes it and exposes it to various temperatures and environments in which it can achieve its optimum potential.

But, as dough, it is still unable to fulfill its destiny; for this the yeast and other living organisms must make the ultimate sacrifice, enduring the fiery furnace, passing the thermal death point (TDP), and in a dramatic, final surge and feeding frenzy, create one last carbonic push while the flour proteins coagulate, the starches gelatinize, and the sugars on the surface caramelize.

Multiple and nearly simultaneous transformations take place behind the veil of the oven door until, at the appointed time, the dough emerges as something totally other. It has become a loaf of bread, the iconic staff of life. We then consume it and begin the cycle again.

That is the microcosmic, literal, metaphorical, analogical, and even anagogical story of one loaf of bread. You are now, courtesy of H. E. Jacob, about to embark upon the macrocosmic outplaying of this loaf as it reveals itself over a six thousand year series of cultural transformations, as it is acted upon and in turn, acts upon the actors.”

The above snippet struck a chord with me and the entire book is written in the same vein.

[Pete-zza]

pftaylor,

A little bit over a couple of years ago, I looked into wooden dough boxes and discovered that there is a company, Marsal & Sons, that sells them. For those who are interested, I reported on my findings at Reply 516 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg31992.html#msg31992. I suspect that you were already aware of the Marsal wooden dough boxes since the dimensions are the same as the ones you are using.

I also recall that you talked about using a wooden bowl in one of your very early posts on the forum, at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,690.msg6236/topicseen.html#msg6236.

Peter

[ray]

The only pizza that I'd had in NYC came from a place on Broadway near 73rd (west side I think), a hole-in-the-wall pizzeria which I think was named Ray's (not so strangely). This was 7 or 8 years ago.

... Anyway I remember reading a newspaper clipping that was taped to the window, applauding the pizza, and especially the fact that the dough was proofed in wooden drawers. This was before I was seriously interested in attempting to craft a decent pie, so I really wasn't taking much notice. Though I did confirm they were indeed proofing in wooden drawers.

And the pizza?

It was unremarkable in every way! Also I remember distinctly on our trek back, the less-fortunate soul leaning against the wall outside soliciting quarters. I asked him if he wanted the remaining slices.

He said no.

 

Cheers,

Ray

[Barry]

Hi pftaylor,

Off subject - sort of ...

What is the name of the digital/laser thermometer that you use to measure the temp of your oven, and who distributes them?

Thank you.

Kind regards.

Barry

[pftaylor]

Hi Barry,
Attached is a photograph of the Raytek laser temperature gun I bought back in 2006. Not sure if it is still available. I paid less than $75. Newer models might serve you better anyway since prices have come down even further. Just Google around.

As a recommendation I would seek out a model which has at least a 1200 degree (F) limit. The Raquel Oven frequently pegs the 999 degree limit on the MT6 so I really don't know the temperature half the time.

[Barry]

Hi pftaylor,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes the Raytek MT6 is available in the USA for $99.  In South Africa, I can get it for the equavalent of $156, due to import duties, taxes and profit I guess. The next model up (up to 1,112 deg F) is very expensive at the equivalent of about $290 local price.  I will just have to bite the bullet and get the MT6. I really need to know what my low-flat dome oven can do.

I will post pics next week of my "new, improved" insulation of the low-flat dome oven. I doubled up on everything, but still kept the aesthetics - I think.

Any more news on the wooden boxes improving things for Raquel ?

Kind regards.

Barry

[solconnection]

Hi solconnection,
I'll try to lend a hand. Do you have photographs of the crumb you can post? It would be much easier to diagnose the specific problem if you did.

Otherwise, my sense is it could be just about anything because in the world of pizza making everything is inter-related. But if I had to guess, I would say to double check in these areas:
- Your dough was perhaps not at room temperature
- Not enough yeast and/or starter to develop a proper rise
- Rise period not long enough relative to the amount of yeast used
- Starter not properly activated
- Oven not pre-heated properly or not at maximum temperature
- Last but not least, you made a mistake somewhere along the way...
- Was this the first time you made Pizza Raquel?

Let me know your thoughts and we'll go from there.
pftaylor   

hi pft, thankyou for your reply and the offer of help, i didn't notice it until now. Unfortunately there were no photographs taken and my memory on it all is a little hazy.

I am going to try it again with some of your points in mind. Yes it was my first time and i am thinking something went wrong somewhere with the yeast, i stretched it too thin and baked it too close to the element (top shelf). Next time i might just use IDY to be safe until i am sure I have the other variables under control.

thanks for your help, thanks to this forum i have been making some real progress on my pizzas lately, but progress in the area of NY/Neopolitan is a little slower, which i am finding the hardest to get right.

have a nice day
-Dan

[solconnection]

Also, one more question.

I know raquel is an attempt at creating pizza art, so there may be elements to it that just cant be achieved in the basic home kitchen but...

any tips for
1. Home oven (550max)
2. Hand Kneading(!)

i realise it's not going to be exactly a raquel with these factors, but any tips on making the best of my situation would be appreciated.

have a nice day
-Dan

[pftaylor]

Barry,
No update yet on the wooden dough boxes as I haven't made Pizza Raquel in a while. I"ll be sure to report my observations when I do though.

solconnection,
Any tips for home oven use and hand kneading? You bet. I'll provide you the best tip of all - knowledge.

Below is my favorite explanation (I can't seem to remember the original author) regarding the challenges facing home pizzamakers when it comes to things like oven spring with home ovens. It provides a fascinating view into what is really going on come the moment of truth when you peel the pie into your home oven:

Oven spring is what happens when a piece of dough hits a hot oven surface. Heat from the oven surface transfers into the dough. How much heat transfers into the dough, how rapidly and how thoroughly the heat transfers into the dough depends on the temperature of the oven surface, the heat capacity (i.e., the "quantity" of heat) of the oven surface, and the thickness of the dough.

A very hot oven surface that has accumulated a lot of thermal energy is able to quickly and thoroughly transfer heat into a thin piece of dough. Water in the dough turns into gas and the air in the dough rapidly expands. When that happens, the tiny air bubbles in the dough rapidly expand, combine, etc. The dough "springs up" from the oven floor, and the result is a light, airy, pliable texture.

If the oven temperature is too low, or the oven floor has not accumulated sufficient heat or the pizza is too thick, this mechanism doesn't work as well. Heat is not transferred from the oven floor throughout the pizza dough with sufficient rapidity or intensity, and the result is less than spectacular oven spring.

The typical situation at home is one where the temperature of the oven, the short firing time and the weight of the toppings conspire against a strong oven spring. In addition, since the pizza must be baked for a longer period of time in order to cook through and achieve a crisp, charred bottom, the crust dries out somewhat. This is a net loss with respect to the quality of the crust.

A pizza that is baked with a good oven spring in a short period of time has a crisp bottom but also has an ethereal lightness and pliability -- morbidezza -- due to the airy interior created by the expansion of the crust and also to the moisture that is retained as a result of the short baking time.

A thicker layer of toppings weighs down the crust, inhibiting oven spring. It also means that the crust has to be a little thicker, which also inhibits oven spring.

Ultimately, it's all part of the tradeoff: if you're going to have heavier toppings, you're going to miss out on crust perfection.

So now I'll ask you a question: With the understanding from the above, what changes could you now make to improve things?

Regarding hand kneading, the attached photograph shows the proven Roman method of folding over the dough at the end of kneading. Incorporate it into your hand kneading regimen and let me know your results.

Ciao,
pftaylor

[Barry]

A very hot oven surface that has accumulated a lot of thermal energy is able to quickly and thoroughly transfer heat into a thin piece of dough.

Hi pftaylor,

Another great posting as usual !

How long does it take to get the Raquel oven up to heat to bake, say, 20 pizzas to perfection ?

Kind regards.

Barry

[pftaylor]

Hi Barry,
Tough question to answer. You may have to come to Florida to get an exact time. Ha-Ha!

Seriously though, I have gotten the Raquel Oven up to operating temperature in as little as 1.5 hours. Could be even less if the ultra-low dome didn't get in the way of stacking more wood. Conversely, I have slow walked the preheating process over as many as six hours. The dome walls are 4.5" thick and I have learned that a proper preheating process takes a fair amount of time. No sense rushing matters just like with the Raquel dough fermentation process - longer is better. Once up to operating temperature the Raquel Oven is quite stable and barely varies temperature wise.

On another note, I have been given the opportunity to test Caputo Rinforzato Flour. I don't mean Caputo Pizzeria Flour which is confusingly sold in the small red bags, I mean the real McCoy, Rosso. As a side note, it seems a certain oven related website has been marketing Caputo Pizzeria Flour as Rosso when in fact it is not. For the record, all the small bags of red Caputo Flour sold in the U.S. are Caputo Pizzeria Flour. True Rosso is only sold in 55lb sacks in the U.S. I trust this helps those that are seeking a slightly firmer and crisper crust than what Caputo Pizzeria Flour typically produces.

Finally, I'm happy to report that there may be a breakthrough on the bufala mozzarella front. It seems Lupara in Italy has figured out a method to freeze their bufala using a proprietary process which when thawed properly, is comparable to fresh bufala aged just 1 - 2 days. If this is true, then Lupara has cracked the code on distributing bufala here in the U.S. We might finally be able to enjoy bufala mozzarella at a freshness state which heretofore has been impossible (well, at least here in the hinterland anyway...).

I am blessed to be given the opportunity to test the Lupara bufala mozzarella this weekend along with the Caputo Rinforzato Flour and should be able to report my observations by Monday.

[Pete-zza]

For the record, all the small bags of red Caputo Flour sold in the U.S. are Caputo Pizzeria Flour. True Rosso is only sold in 55lb sacks in the U.S.

Compare http://fornobravo.com/store/Caputo-Tipo-00-Flour-p-1-c-23.html and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7191.msg62063.html#msg62063.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Pete-zza,
Thanks for pointing the earlier thread on Caputo Rosso/Pizzeria out. I’m not sure I added any new information but some records are meant to be played again and judging by the continued confusion in the marketplace, this one bears replaying.

While on the topic of Caputo, one new tidbit I can bring to the table is that in the coming months they will change the graphics on the packaging of the small bags of Caputo Pizzeria Flour.

Apparently they want to broaden its intended usage (and perhaps distribution channels) and will highlight other appropriate uses on the bag. If memory serves me correctly the front of the bag will state for Pizza, Pasta, and Baked Goods. Same red color though so it remains to be seen if confusion will rein supreme. 

[pftaylor]

I’ll get right to the point here. One of my Chef’s Walk guests recently asked me, “over your lifetime how many hours have you studied the topic of pizza.” What an odd question I initially thought. Little did I know it was a loaded question. So I went about using high level monkey math to calculate my approximate time invested and announced by the end of the evening “about ten thousand hours.” My guest then presented me with Malcom Gladwell’s latest book entitled “Outliers” and suggested I read it without delay.

Talk about an eye-opener. Among other things, “Outliers” explains an awful lot in layman’s terms about how long it takes to really become extremely proficient at things.  If anyone has read Malcolm’s previous books “Tipping Point” & “Blink” it is a must read. Even if you haven’t, I urge you to get your hands on a copy. You won’t be sorry.

I’m a patient man when it comes to pizza. Good thing too. My pizza patience came in handy today as I took delivery of a box which was supposed to contain genuine Caputo Rinforzato Flour (Rosso). I carefully took a razorblade and sliced open what I thought might be the final answer to sourcing a competent enough flour which would meet my stringent requirement for producing a wafer thin egg shell veneer with a Bubble Burst silly-soft middle. All without the need of blending various flours as has been my reluctant process heretofore. Then all my plans for a Rosso inspired Valentine’s Chef’s Walk extravaganza went puff in the blink of an eye. Have you ever noticed how fast something can go wrong but how long it takes to get something right? I know I have and wouldn’t you know it I found myself sitting in that seat again.

The box barely made it in one piece (see below) as the rigors of overland transit took its full toll. Much to my surprise, the box didn’t contain Rosso but rather Pizzeria. Oh well another bump in the road to pizza bliss. BTW, I want to be clear, I don’t have anything against Pizzeria Flour. Lord knows I’ve made countless batches of the stuff and to date it manages to produce the finest tasting crust I’m capable of. But it does carry a heavy price tag in terms of texture.

Others have already long experimented with Caputo Rosso. I am just now getting around to it. Why? Well, I wanted to eliminate all doubt about Caputo Pizzeria being right or wrong for my style of crust. It took the right tools and considerable efforting to conclusively eliminate that doubt.

And I don’t make that statement flippantly either. What with the investment for the Raquel Oven, the Santos fork mixer and the countless batches of dough mixing. Heck, I’ve made batches by hand, with an Artisan KA mixer, a KA Professional 600 mixer and now the Santos Fork. Almost forgot I’ve also made a few batches with a hand-held Sunbeam mixer (in India no less with a course flour which resembled rough cut oats).

So I can now comfortably state with 100% certainty that Pizzeria is not ideal for Pizza Raquel. Not for my style of pizza. Not for my interpretation of artisan pizza. It may be decidedly for Neapolitan styles yet no matter how hard I tried to make it work in my setting it just didn’t deliver the goods. Not that I didn’t work my you know what off to make it work because I did. I also did so with a tear in my eyes.

All I have ever heard about Caputo Pizzeria is that it is “the” best. But I have learned that best is relative. As with most other facets of this crazy hobby, I couldn’t prove that hypothesis for myself. While I admire its ability to snicker at the immense heat output of the venerable Raquel Oven, it is simply not up to the task of creating what I consider to be the perfect crust. I finally know enough about pizza to know that I’m not failing it somewhere along the way either. Hence more teary eyes.

When using Caputo Pizzeria and my favored Raquel dough management process to create my version of a naturally leavened pizza dough (with gracious thanks to pizzanapoletana for its origin), it tends to produce such a soft crust that I have no option but to declare it unsuitable for my artisan style of pizza. Over the years, I thought the problem was with me but I have had hundreds of guests’ stream through Chez Taylor and not one of them – that’s right not even one has ever said they prefer the super softness of Pizzeria based crusts overall to San Felice or a 50/50 blend of Pizzeria with a stronger flour like KA Special. I can only conclude that my guest’s personal preference (and mine for that matter) favor slice pick-up-ability (not a word but it should be) over the subtle favor advantage Pizzeria imparts.

Frankly I’m weary of trying to make it work. And I know that my position is perhaps a dissident one but for my intended use it is the correct one. I just feel that it is an inalienable right to be able to comfortably and confidently pick up a slice with more than parsimonious amounts of toppings and not worry about if the toppings will make to your mouth or not.

As I’ve stated in the past, I suppose if I were cranking out 9” – 12” pies the point would be rendered moot. Because in those cases the rim is such a large percentage of the form factor that one can pick up a whole slice without worry. But try a 14” – 16” Caputo Pizzeria inspired crust properly created using the best aspects of ancient pizza tradition and customized to reflect modern times (my humble contribution) and you will immediately see the defect of super softness rear its ugly head to unsuspecting slice meisters. I am left with having to draw the inevitable conclusion of inappropriateness for my style of pizza. So much for wandering down the Neapolitan trail. No I’m clearly taking a different route.

So I’m throwing in the proverbial towel on Pizzeria, going my own way and looking in the direction of Rosso. I do so with the belief that everything I know about Antimo Caputo’s standard of quality leads me to believe Rosso should be in my consideration set. I must confess I am privately pulling for Rosso to come through but if it doesn’t I will leave it in a New York minute.

So a fair question to ask is just how do I know that Rosso will be the panacea answer to creating a wafer thin crispy veneer crust capable of supporting Americanized levels of toppings? I won’t actually know until I start trialing Rosso in my kitchen which has been my approach from the beginning. And that approach will have to clearly wait a little longer - until Rosso arrives.

Only then will we see.

[tdeane]

I too like to be able to pick up a slice. We all know Dom uses the Caputo pizzeria flour but he compensates by cooking his pies for a lot longer(and at a lower temperature) than what you are, to get the crispiness. Have you tried any Giusto flours?

[widespreadpizza]

PFT,  as usual another thought provoking post.  Sorry to hear about your screwed up delivery!  About 4 months ago I had a similar experience when ordering caputo rosso.  My experience ended with a bag of caputo rosso being delivered to me pretty badly damaged.  It was shipped from chefs warehouse,  30 for the product 30 for shipping.  They did a good job packing the flour but the styrofoam cooler type thing they packed it in broke and infiltrated the product.   After several attempts to remedy the situation with NO response whatsoever,  my trusty amex card reversed the charges.  I was able to salvage about 20 pounds of the flour that I considered to be not contaminated and perfectly good to use.  Not my favorite way to obtain a sample,  but it was enough to figure out that this flour held no promise to produce the crust that I and maybe we are looking for.  Believe me,  I had the exact hope that you may still have for it too,  but it did not deliver.  At least for me.  In fact I disliked its performance so much that I put it down and still have about half of it left.  I started to use it just like I was using straight pizzeria and bread flour/pizzeria blends which I thought would be a logical place to start.  For whatever reason It just wouldn't hold standard amounts of water ie:62%  the dough was a wet mess.  I repeated and reduced hydration to under 60% and again not good.  I could still work with the dough and produce pizza from it but even then it wasn't what I want at all and not very much different than pizzeria.  I concluded that it was never going to outperform standard pizzeria or my normal hybrid blends.  I thought if anything I would be able to go up in hydration not down.  Granted this could be a fluke.  It could be that the humidity level of the flour was way higher than normal.  I don't know.  What I do know that it was so far away from what I wanted that there is still some left,  and I have little desire to revisit it.  I would be happy to ship it to you if you like.  Anyhow,  enough about that,  I just wanted to outline my experience with it for you to use as you wish.  So,  this brings me to my point.  As usual,  your description of your "perfect pie" for you is almost exactly like mine.  I can make a very authentic Neapolitan pizza in my oven with all the right ingredients, cooked at the right temp, fermented correctly with natural yeast, and believe me I love it, once in a while.  It can be very succulent,  delicate and amazing when you get it right and I am glad that I can attempt to produce it when I want to.  I am by not a master of the style,  but like to think that I can hold my own.  I truly believe that it is the most challenging type of pizza to make,  and that in itself is why folks like yourself,  myself and others chase it down, figure it out and get it done without respect for time or money.   I think it was an amazing journey to be able to get to this point and have learned so much on the way.  Part of what I have learned is that Naples style pizza is not my favorite style of pizza.  Heck, to be honest,  I have never been to Naples,  so why did I try so hard to duplicate a product I have never had?  I covered that above.  So I have had the same reaction from family,friends and self as you have.  They of course think the Neapolitan style pizzas are great,  but like the "artisan" style pie you refer to better, and also as the best they've had.  So I have changed my thinking as you have yourself,  and given up on Neapolitan style,  and with it the flour and outrageous heat that goes with it.  The 90 second barrier has almost been forgotten.  Now I just make what I am in the mood for and usually that is an artisan pizza,  made with great care and the best ingredients,  it rarely disappoints,  and usually excites.  I have been using a larger form factor up to 16 inches and the unbromated unbleached version of all trumps along with a small percentage of caputo and couldn't be happier with the results, and others agree.   Along with the flour the key has been running my oven at about 750-800 instead my previous 900+ for 1 minute pies.  They bake for 2-3 minutes and I get a nice crisp that stands up to toppings has a nice char to go with it.  Add to that plenty of nice bubbles and a pleasantly soft interior and an amazing flavor, its just what I crave and think you would agree.  I just had a large gathering a couple weeks ago with 25 plus people coming by,  made 12,  16" pizzas throughout the evening and not a slice to be found.  Everyone loved the large form factor and crispy crust.   I have to say that trying the all trumps along with the lower heat has been great.  I wonder if you might try similar things to reach your target soon.  I'd be curious what your results would be.  Well,  hopefully I gave youback something to think about.  I leave you with a picture of my newest piece of pizza equipment that I just got a good deal on at my local HD.  No more splitting by hand.  Winter caught me of guard last fall!  -marc

[Pete-zza]

At Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3059.msg25957/topicseen.html#msg25957, Marco indicated that the Caputo Red is more like the San Felice flour. As noted, he also recommended getting Caputo's Manitoba flour and combining that with the Caputo Pizzeria flour.

The Caputo red is the flour that is shown at the Woodstone website at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm. Image 4d and also at an earlier page at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style.htm.

Peter

[widespreadpizza]

This is the flour i was refering to in the last post.  -marc

http://www.chefswarehouse.com/Catalog/DisplayDetail.aspx?prd_id=GF296A

[shango]

The Caputo "rosso", or rinforzato, (reinforced) is a much stronger flour, suited to a longer fermentation under refrigeration.  Or, perhaps you are thinking of the Caputo gnocchi flour?

In either case, I think that the flour may not be the issue.  Perhaps baking at a lower temp will give you the "crisp" you desire.  Perhaps a thorough draining of tomato, cheese and other toppings, and paper thin slicing of solid toppings such as salumi, onions, mushrooms, etc.  Also, a heavy hand in topping is not your friend when cooking with wood.

My two teeth.