Author Topic: Keste Clone  (Read 29087 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Keste Clone
« on: December 20, 2010, 03:29:27 PM »
After seeing the video of Roberto Caporuscio of Keste make dough, I was really intrigued and decided to try a clone. Roberto's pizza is masterful in it's creation and execution. And I am not aware of others who use this workflow. If you want the short of it, scroll down to the pics - I got some really good results. If you want the full story of the dough, read on.

Video from Slice:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/12/how-to-make-neapolitan-pizza-dough-with-kestes-roberto-caporuscio.html

Factors (see screen caps for reference):

1. This clone is not really about figuring out ingredients, we already know what they are: Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour, water, salt, and cake yeast. So even though I have never tasted Keste pizza, I am confident that I can get the same taste in dough. We also have alot of insight into the process from the video.

2. 60% hydration (25kg bag of flour/15 liters of water).

3. Salt: this is still a bit of a guess, but the container he shows in the video is around 1/4-1/3 full. It is a sixth size restaurant pan, which is 1.6 liters. That is either 400-533 grams, which works out to around 2%. This seems low, but since this is a potentially 40 hour room temp dough, too much salt would kills the small amount of...

4. Yeast: cake yeast in a very small amount, dissolved in the water. I used .075, but I could have easily gone to .05 or lower. I have a feeling Roberto uses lower than that. You will need a micro scale to get these small quantities for 4-6 balls of dough.

5. Room temperature: I have no idea what temp he bulks at. My house this time of year is 65-67, so that was the determining factor in the amount of yeast I used.

6. 260-270 gram ball size. My oven works best with 280 grams, so I decided to stick to that number. It resulted in a puffier crust that Roberto's.

So, here is the dough I made:

Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
CY (.075%):
Salt (2%):
Total (162.075%):
Single Ball:
691.04 g  |  24.38 oz | 1.52 lbs
414.62 g  |  14.63 oz | 0.91 lbs
0.52 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs |
13.82 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.88 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
1120 g | 39.51 oz | 2.47 lbs | TF = N/A
280 g | 9.88 oz | 0.62 lbs

Yeast was dissolved in room temp water, flour was dumped in and mixed for a few seconds, then the salt. Total mix time was longer than normal for me - around 5 minutes. I then finished by hand. I do not have a fork mixer, but my goal was to have the dough looking very fluid and smooth, as in the video. Went into a glass container, and was not touched for 24 hours.

After 24 hours, there was some signs of fermentation. This is why i think even at 65 degrees, less yeast is needed. But I balled them up. The dough was slack and heavy, as in the video, but that dough also did not have visible signs of fermentation. I reached another 6 hours before I thought it was ready to be used - a total of 30 hours.

The dough was the lightest, most flexible dough I have ever worked with. It had strength, but seemed to just do everything you wanted it to. There were tons of air bubbles.

The cooked pizza was stellar. Light as a feather. There was a softness to the inside crumb that I have never achieved before, which contrasted beautifully with the crunchy, charred bits of the outside. Since my oven is so small, my leoparding was not as spread out as Roberto's. But all in all I think that I achieved something that resembles one of Roberto's pies.

John
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 03:31:14 PM by dellavecchia »


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 03:30:34 PM »
Pizza's:

1. Salami
2. Margherita
3. Lobster
4. Baccala (salt cod), limoncello oil, fresh marjoram

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 03:38:24 PM »
John, excellent looking pies.  Some of your finest.  I have been using a similar workflow with very good resuls as well. 

Chau

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 03:47:57 PM »
Impressive work, John.  My entire life pretty much revolves around NY style pies, but should I ever get the Neapolitan bug, this could be the recipe.

This also reminds me that it's time to develop a room temp 30+ NY style as well. I think NY could definitely benefit from some extended unrefrigerated fermentation.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 03:51:25 PM »
BEAUTIFUL!!
so it was 24 hr bulk then 4 balled so 30 hr @ 67 ish F right
Please describe  your  oven technique?
John
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 03:54:08 PM »
Impressive work, John.  My entire life pretty much revolves around NY style pies, but should I ever get the Neapolitan bug, this could be the recipe.

This also reminds me that it's time to develop a room temp 30+ NY style as well. I think NY could definitely benefit from some extended unrefrigerated fermentation.

Scott r, maybe you can explain the why's and how's, but I've made a couple of NY-elite style pies with a similar workflow recently with great results.  Well 0.05% IDY and 20-24h room temp ferment and I noticed right away that I got great oven spring.  Much better than normal.  What is it about the small % of yeast, long room fermentation that helps with oven spring?  Or was it just my imagination?  

John, did you notice anything different with your oven spring?

Chau

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 04:00:34 PM »
Very nice pies!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 04:03:06 PM »
Scott r, maybe you can explain the why's and how's, but I've made a couple of NY-elite style pies with a similar workflow recently with great results.  Well 0.05% IDY and 20-24h room temp ferment and I noticed right away that I got great oven spring.  Much better than normal.  What is it about the small % of yeast, long room fermentation that helps with oven spring?  Or was it just my imagination?  

John, did you notice anything different with your oven spring?

Chau

Chau - Yes, immediate and abundant oven spring. The bubbles were everywhere when making the skins.

John - Yes, 30 hours. They could not go any longer. Chau's results with .05 yeast is right on the money I think - but Roberto may be using an even smaller amount. As for oven technique, nothing really to describe - I am not an expert. I just place it and start spinning it around after 10-20 seconds.

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 04:05:37 PM »
This also reminds me that it's time to develop a room temp 30+ NY style as well. I think NY could definitely benefit from some extended unrefrigerated fermentation.

Scott - Definitely. I would think that all of the favorable aspects of this dough would translate perfectly to a NY temperature cook using AP flour or similar.

John


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 04:20:25 PM »
Thanks for confirming on the oven spring John.  I used a 0.05% IDY but fermented at a room temp of ~75F thus the 20-22h.  If I was fermenting at 70F or less, I'm sure the 30+ hour mark wouldn't be a problem. 

Sorry to clog up your thread, but I wanted to post a few crumb shots I got the other day by using a similar technique that was inspired by Roberto's recent video as well.   Just to show the ovenspring.  I hope you don't mind. 

Just wanted to say that in the few times I've used this workflow, I've gotten good results.

Chau
 

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 04:23:21 PM »
Just wanted to say that in the few times I've used this workflow, I've gotten good results.

Chau
 

Gorgeous. You should open a restaurant called "Crumb". You certainly know how to get it.

John

Online norma427

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 04:43:11 PM »
John,

Your Keste’s clone look right on the money!  ;D  Great job.  They look exactly like what I recently ate at Keste’s.  Was you bottom crust soft?  I would have liked to taste your pies.

Norma
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 04:45:52 PM by norma427 »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 04:57:00 PM »
John,

Your Keste’s clone look right on the money!  ;D  Great job.  They look exactly like what I recently ate at Keste’s.  Was you bottom crust soft?  I would have liked to taste your pies.

Norma

Thank you Norma. Yes, the bottom crust was soft - it did not blacken as I would have expected for such a long fermentation.

John

Online norma427

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 05:48:39 PM »
Yes, the bottom crust was soft - it did not blacken as I would have expected for such a long fermentation.

John

John,

Your Keste's clones sound just the same as the pies at Keste's   :)

Norma


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 05:49:33 PM »
Regarding the salt: I realized that I converted liters to grams without taking into account salt density (which is needed for the conversion from volume to weight). If the container is 1/3 full, the salt should be around 2.5%.

http://www.traditionaloven.com/culinary-arts/cooking/table-salt/convert-liter-l-to-gram-g.html

John
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 07:26:11 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 06:22:51 PM »
Bravo John!

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2010, 06:38:07 PM »
congrats John !! your pies look great !! :chef:
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 07:53:47 PM »
John,

Very nice job. I think you aced it.

Peter

Offline PizzaVera

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2010, 05:06:55 AM »
very nice indeed!


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2010, 08:01:24 AM »
Thanks to all for the compliments!

John

Offline MSK

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2010, 09:16:19 AM »
Congrats! those Pies look darn good, and pretty close to your goal.  I had the opportunity to eat there for lunch last week, and I thought it was great. 

Anyone know what brand/type of cheese he uses?  It really stood out as exceptional to me for some reason.

Mike

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2010, 09:31:38 AM »
I know at one point he was using Lupara flash frozen bufala. I am not sure if that is still the case:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8285.msg71626.html#msg71626

John

Offline thezaman

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2010, 01:49:08 PM »
 someone in new york makes his fresh mozzarella,you are right it is hard to beat. he also uses curd for some of his appetizers.
 john, your pizza looks really close to kestes, i think the salt is to be at or around three percent. if anything a little more in the summer to slow the yeast. i also think that the room temperature of 65 degrees is close to optimal . in the summer somthing to control humidity would be needed to do a room rise dough. his dough never tastes overly salty it must have to do with that long slow rise. if you look at the container and where his thumb is it comes in at the salt is 24 to 27 ounces. i really think that the vpn document is followed really close.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2010, 03:44:59 PM »
Larry - Thanks so much for the insight. My normal salt range is 2.8%, so I will give that a try next time. It will also slow down the fermentation, so I will also stick with .075% yeast to hopefully allow more than 30 hours.

John

Offline CRUSHPizza

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Re: Keste Clone
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2010, 06:03:52 PM »
Bravo!!

John, I can only hope that I can serve pies that look (and I'm sure, taste) that amazing!

Come up to Nashua after the New Year and make dough for me so I can look over your shoulder.  ;D ;D

-Steve


 

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