Author Topic: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim  (Read 8043 times)

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Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2011, 02:26:05 PM »
Scott123,
I think you hit the nail on the head.  I use containers that are deep, yet narrow, which is undesirable as you mentioned, so I use more oil than I would like to.  I'm going to try to make some room in my refrigerator so I can use a bigger container.  Maybe I can throw away my wifes two month old potato chip dip.  What about using plastic bags?
Dave


scott123

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2011, 03:56:46 PM »
Dave, I think plastic bags are probably the worst proofing containers, as they maximize contact with the container and require lots of oil.

Here are traditional proofing pans

http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/Product_600605

These are sized more for Neapolitan doughs, although, from my calculations, you should be able to fit 4 NY style balls (for 16" pies) if you stagger them.  Earlier you mentioned M. Teixeira, are you in NJ? If so, Corrados in Clifton has these for around $12.  The exterior dimension on the long end is 27" though, so my fridge isn't big enough.  I also, at this point, tend to make 4 balls but only bake 2 balls at a time, which means I'd have to transfer the dough to other containers to warm up.

Here are the half size pans that I mentioned earlier:

http://www.doughmate.com/artisanproducttrays.html

I'm pretty sure that although these are slightly smaller than 1/2 the regular size ones, 2 dough balls (16") should still fit. I'm not in love with the $40 (including shipping) price tag, though.

Most of the pizzerias in my area use aluminum proofing pans like these:

http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=12481&keyword=Related%20Items

These are pretty standard for slice places.  Since most slice places work with same day doughs, the aluminum doesn't have much time to react with the acids in the dough.  I don't think I want a two day dough sitting in aluminum for all that long, and, should I ever get into sourdoughs, the acid in those would definitely cross these off the list.

Here's what I'm using now:

http://www.bakedeco.com/a/plastic-dough-pan-s-12232.htm

As I clicked on this link to confirm it, I notice that they now have a larger size:

http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=23241&keyword=Related%20Items

Had they offered these at the time, I definitely would have bought these instead, as my 16" doughs will sometime get past me and stick against the top of the smaller pans.

The big downside to these is that you can't see the bottom of the dough, which, for a beginner, is critical for detecting proper fermentation.

I'm not a huge fan of the size, but the Pyrex round glass 7 cup container works pretty well:

http://www.amazon.com/Pyrex-Storage-7-Cup-Round-Plastic/dp/B000LOWN3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I've been keeping my eye out for larger round glass containers, but, so far, this is the largest and most easily found (walmart, target, kmart, etc.).  I did come across this set from Italy:

http://www.greenfeet.com/itemdesc.asp?kw=Glass-Round-Storage-Bowls-and-Lids-Set4-&ic=6007-00480-0000

As far as size goes, I really like the 12 cup capacity XL bowl, but I can't find it on it's own.

Your best bet would probably be to lose the clear bottom 'training wheels' as fast as possible (by detecting smell and knowing time frames for previous doughs with similar ratios/proofing conditions) and then graduate up to real proofing pans, either rectangular or round.

Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2011, 04:25:42 PM »
Scott123,
I have been to Corrados in Clifton.  That is where I buy my All Trumps flour.  They have a large assortment of containers.  I bought some nice metal ones there, but they are deeper than they are wide.  At least they fit my refrigerator.  I'd like to buy wider ones so the dough doesn't touch the side, but they wouldn't fit in my refrigerator.
Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2011, 04:36:23 PM »
Norma has used storage bags in her pizza business and may still be using them. The recommendation to use such bags came from Tom Lehmann as a space saving measure, as discussed in the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7481&hilit. The bags Norma has used are a commercial product but in a home setting empty bread bags can be used as a substitute. Zip-type storage bags can also be used provided one can remove the dough balls without mangling them. Most people who use the zip-type storage bags use a light oil spray to keep the dough balls from sticking.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2011, 05:41:03 PM »
Norma has used storage bags in her pizza business and may still be using them. The recommendation to use such bags came from Tom Lehmann as a space saving measure, as discussed in the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7481&hilit. The bags Norma has used are a commercial product but in a home setting empty bread bags can be used as a substitute. Zip-type storage bags can also be used provided one can remove the dough balls without mangling them. Most people who use the zip-type storage bags use a light oil spray to keep the dough balls from sticking.

Peter

Peter,

You are right, I am still using food grade plastic bags for all my doughs at market.  They seem to work well for storing the dough balls and even for freezing dough balls.  These are plastic bags I buy for dough balls at market.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/plastic-food-bag-6x3x12-1000-bx/1306312%20%20%20%20%201M.html   Those bags come in a box of 1,000 bags.  I only lightly oil my dough balls the same as I do at home.  I am sure Dave and anyone else that is interested can see the plastic bags in the video I referenced at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12643.msg122168.html#msg122168 when I was opening the dough ball.

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2011, 09:33:40 PM »
Interesting,the frozen dough balls I used for an experiment,were also in plastic bags.When they thawed out and rose somewhat in the bag,they were still very easy to use and shape into any size.Got fantastic rim and spring from them,depending on how much of a rim I made.

Of course,I always removed them from the bag and very lightly balled them,just to shape it,and let it warm up for an hour or two.

The plastic bowls and lids I like to use are these:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/365454565_63bcadbc81.jpg

I use the different sizes for sauce making and dough rising.



-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2011, 09:41:46 PM »
Interesting,the frozen dough balls I used for an experiment,were also in plastic bags.When they thawed out and rose somewhat in the bag,they were still very easy to use and shape into any size.Got fantastic rim and spring from them,depending on how much of a rim I made.

Of course,I always removed them from the bag and very lightly balled them,just to shape it,and let it warm up for an hour or two.

The plastic bowls and lids I like to use are these:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/365454565_63bcadbc81.jpg

I use the different sizes for sauce making and dough rising.


Bill,

That is interesting you also froze your dough in balls in plastic bags and it worked out okay for you in terms of oven spring.  :)  I let my frozen dough balls defrost right in the plastic bags and use them directly from the bags into the flour to lightly dust them, before opening the dough ball.  There doesn't seem to be any problems with using frozen dough in plastic bags.

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2011, 09:58:18 PM »
Norma,

I was not clear enough when I posted that.I bought frozen dough balls,already frozen from GFS store.They came in 20 ounce sizes and were already wrapped/sealed in plastic bags.The brand was Primo Gusto Italian style dough balls.

They were actually very good dough balls,and Its gonna be tough for me to make better at times with a good mixer.I could make excellent pies with them.Sorry I was not more clear on that they were store bought.
 ;)




-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2011, 10:02:46 PM »
Norma,

I was not clear enough when I posted that.I bought frozen dough balls,already frozen from GFS store.They came in 20 ounce sizes and were already wrapped/sealed in plastic bags.The brand was Primo Gusto Italian style dough balls.

They were actually very good dough balls,and Its gonna be tough for me to make better at times with a good mixer.I could make excellent pies with them.Sorry I was not more clear on that they were store bought.
 ;)


Bill,

It was my old mind that forgot you had bought frozen dough balls before.   :-D  I remember now that you reminded me.   ;D

You can make good dough without a mixer.  You need a good formula and you should get nice airy rims.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

scott123

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2011, 10:27:12 PM »
Sorry, I think there's a little confusion here.  When I say

Dave, I think plastic bags are probably the worst proofing containers, as they maximize contact with the container and require lots of oil.

It's in the context of this thread and Dave's/my own particular parameters.

It meant something along the lines of:

Dave, I think plastic bags are probably the worst proofing containers for generally sticky All Trumps minimally kneaded 65% hydration doughs, as they maximize contact with the container and require lots of oil.

As you get into longer kneads, preferments, sourdoughs and different flours/hydrations, the potential for less sticky doughs is far greater and, in those cases, I'm sure plastic bags work well.


Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2011, 11:35:15 AM »
Based on your advice, I tried the following:
1. heat 8.5 oz of water to 95F, pour 10% of water and 1/2 tsp ADY to bowl, proof 10 min.
2. add 1 tsp salt to glass of water and stir.
3. put 13 oz of All Trumps flour in bowl, add salt water, yeast water, and 1 tsp olive oil.
4. knead in KitchenAid mixer for 3 minutes at speed #2, temperature of dough was 77F.
5. took a picture before removing from bowl (done kneading.jpg).
6. ball dough, place in plastic container, took picture (0 days.jpg)
7. attached lid and refrigerated.
8. took picture after one day, returned to refrigerator (1 day.jpg).
9. took picture after two days, left container at room temperature for 1 hour (2 days.jpg).
10. meanwhile preheated gas oven with soapstone on bottom with aluminum foil 4" above.
How did my dough look?
See the following post for my results.
Dave

Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2011, 11:42:54 AM »
Continuing from the previous post:
11. shaped the dough and added toppings (toppings.jpg).
12. just before launching the pie I set the oven to 550F.
13. I ended up launching the pie when the stone measured 585F.
14. after 3 minutes I smelled smoke.  I checked the bottom and it was burning, yet the top was still undercooked, so I quickly moved the pie under the broiler.

I feel I've made progress in many areas.  However, I've still not mastered the use of the soapstone.  My plan for next week is to get the soapstone to 500F and then just before launching the pie, turn it up to 550F.  As you can see (finished bottom.jpg), the bottom was burned again.  The top was overcooked a little due to me using the broiler a little too long (finished top.jpg).  I am happy with the rim (rim.jpg).  I feel that once I get the soapstone temperature situation under control, I'll be pretty happy.
I welcome comments and advice as always, but especially concerning how the bottom burned.  Why is the bottom cooking so unevenly?  What can I do to get my top to cook faster?  I don't seem to be capturing the heat with the aluminum foil/cookie sheet technique.
Dave

scott123

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2011, 11:50:22 PM »
Dave, while I'm sad to see the bottom of your crust burn, I think there are other elements here that are highly encouraging.

I think the knead time is pretty much where you want it to be.  You could play around with a tiny bit less (2.5 minutes) and make it a bit more cottage cheese-y, but I'd hold off on tweaking that for now.

It's kind of hard to tell, but it looks like the yeast quantity is about right.  Next time, try to get a photo of underneath the container, and, also, try to get your hands on a round container, as square doughs can be difficult to stretch.

The thickness factor is definitely improved as well.

What's really exciting, though, is that you achieved the oven spring you were looking for.  That's a really nice crumb. If you can get that crumb with a lightly toasted bottom, I think you'll be sitting pretty.

Your idea to reduce the heat to 500 is probably a sound one. You might end up closer to 525, but, for now, it's better to push the clock slightly than to burn the bottom.