Author Topic: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim  (Read 9411 times)

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scott123

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2010, 08:51:33 PM »
Dave, thanks for posting a photo of the soapstone.  The veins are little creamier than I like, but I think it a perfectly good stone.

4 days is, imo, kind of advanced pizzamaking.  With that length of time, you're really in a potentially sketchy territory when it comes to gluten degradation/enzyme activity.  You also could be producing too much alcohol and adversely affecting the flavor of the dough. I would save the extended fermentation until you've completely mastered the oven spring issue, and, for now, shoot for a 2 day dough.  Ideally, you want to use just enough yeast so the dough doubles in the fridge and, by the time you stretch it out, it will have tripled. I would stick with a half teaspoon and shoot for 2 days. It the volume increases too quickly, use it after a day and dial it back next week.

And, although I'm giving you conflicting advice here, I'm not a big fan of using warm water with yeast.  I strongly believe that the only thing yeast has to do prior to combining with the flour is dissolve in the water.  Room temp water and a minute or two of time will achieve this.  Scale out the water first, sprinkle on the yeast, give it a stir, and, by the time you have scaled out the dry ingredients in another bowl, the yeast will be fully dissolved. Yeast activity generates heat, so the warmer the dough is going into the fridge, the more yeast activity you'll have/the longer it will take to chill, which, in turn will generate even more yeast activity. Ideally, you want the dough to be pretty close to room temp going into the fridge so the yeast doesn't go crazy at the beginning of the process. I know some people use ice water, but, imo, it's just so much easier to start off with room temp water.

As Gtsum2 mentioned, unless you had darker areas that you didn't take a picture of, the bottom of this last pie was pretty much perfect, imo. That's how the bottom of the crust is supposed to look.  If you want a little more even coloring (both on the bottom and the rim), try adding a little sugar.  1% is a good jumping off point.

Isolating the bottom of the oven with foil is a good idea, although I'm a bit stumped as to what stone temp to shoot for, as the outside of the stone will get very hot quickly while the core will be quite a bit cooler.  I would try preheating the stone for 40 minutes, checking the temp, and if the top of the stone is close to 575, launching the pie and then cranking the heat so it collects under the foil and browns the top. If it's a lot higher than 575, turn the oven off until it cools to 575.  I would also go with the same 4" vertical space with the foil that you were using with the broiler.


Offline chickenparm

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2010, 09:52:37 PM »
I was doing some reading tonight and came across an old posting.I'm gonna do a Pete-zza and post the link,and its message # 7 that giotto posted about achieving bubbles in the rim/dough.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5351.html#msg5351
-Bill

Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2011, 07:32:59 PM »
PizzaHog,
I think I was able to get 730F because I used a layer of aluminum foil 4" above my stone which insulated the oven temperature sensor.  I'll try your idea and set my oven to 350F and plot temperature vs. time.  The goal will be to get 550F after one hour.  I'll pay attention and notice if the burner ever turns off.
Scott123,
I think my 4 days of fermentation is another example of me getting all kinds of techniques confused.  There is so much information on this forum, that it is easy to get lost.  I appreciate you suggesting I try a 2 day fermentation.  I've always had in the back of my mind the idea that I've been overfermenting.  2 days will keep things simple.  I also am going to drop my water temperature a little.
Chickenparm,
Thanks for the link.  However, it made my biggest insecurity even worse.   ???  I'm confused on kneading time.  It's probably is due to my misunderstanding, but this is what I've noticed.  Some suggest I try to get a "cottage cheese" texture after about 3 minutes of kneading in my KA.  Others suggest I shoot for smooth skin on my dough ball with a 5-7 minute knead time in my KA.  If I'm trying to make a NY style pie, which is the right one.  Also, what speed should I set my KA?

With all these suggestions, I'm almost expecting the next post to suggest using a nuclear reaction to cook a pie!   :-D

Dave

Offline PizzaHog

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2011, 08:15:37 PM »
Quote
PizzaHog,
I think I was able to get 730F because I used a layer of aluminum foil 4" above my stone which insulated the oven temperature sensor.
So you hit 730 because you preheated with the foil in place?  If so, please feel free to ignore my previous suggestion.  You can still try it but maybe not just yet.  One can only fool their temp sensor some of the time, not all of the time, and equilibrium will not be denied.  The elevated temp will continuously dissipate introducing yet another variable.   
The basic pan trick preheats with only the stone and any second stone if used.  The barrier goes on when the pie goes in, or a measured short time prior to lauching the pie like 5 or 10 minutes.  Barrier is removed with each pie, the oven returns towards its original state, then the process repeats for each pie.  This is at least a consistent and repeatable way to start things off.
Sorry about my duh moment.
Hog

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2011, 11:00:02 PM »
Sorry for the confusion,I just wanted you to read the part about the air bubbles in reply 7 of that link.

Here it is in shorter form,and not the entire link.

- For those who worry about airy results, this is definitely in the handling of the dough.  I do everything possible not to kill the air bubbles when preparing the dough. This combined with less kneading when creating the dough gives me the most consistent results.  By treating the dough with kid gloves during preparation, rather than slapping the heck out of it like some sites recommend, you can protect the bubbles (especially where the outer crust forms) and get airy results.  I don't use a roller; but instead lay it out by hand (toss, turn in air, and stetch gently by hand, always being careful of bubbles in outside edges. Any of these techniques are effective).

- You can also further increase your chances with airy results by placing the dough in the oven without any toppings for about 60 seconds at 515 F, which will result in some slight bubbles, allowing the top to separate from the bottom. 

-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2011, 11:29:48 PM »
Dave,

I hope I donít confuse you more by my explaining how to get bigger bubbles in the rim of a pizza.  I had someone take this video over a year ago of me opening the dough.  I wasnít as experienced as I am now and donít know if this will help you are not.  I also opened my doughs at home something like this.  This isnít a professional video, but it can give you an idea how I open skins.



I also wanted to comment that I didnít have to much luck with soapstone either.  I do have a soapstone something like yours, and my regular cordierite baking stone seems to do a better job in baking my pizzas at home.  I havenít done enough tests on my soapstone, but the tests I have done so far are inferior to the cordierite, at least for me.  My home oven canít get up to the higher temperatures your oven gets.  I also have a friend Steve (Ev) and his oven can get up to higher temperatures than mine.  I gave him a soapstone to use for awhile.  He also had problems with burning or browning to fast on the bottom of his pies when using a soapstone.  I donít know if either of us arenít going about using the soapstones right or not.  We both agree, we like our cordierite baking stones better.  Maybe in the future I will try out my soapstone to see if I can get better results.

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2011, 12:22:11 AM »
Looks like you were doing just fine there Norma!
 :)
-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 12:44:41 AM »
Looks like you were doing just fine there Norma!
 :)

Bill,

Thanks, that video and this video were when I was making a straight Lehmann dough with about 61% hydration.    I usually don't like to post those videos, because I didn't know as much about opening the dough then.

Dave,

I also forgot to tell you  in my last post, that I have tried mixing until the dough is it came to about the smooth stage and the cottage cheese stage at home and both doughs came out okay.  Other members are right, that you might try a shorter fermentation time to see what happens.

Norma
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Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2011, 10:09:02 AM »
Norma,
Thanks for sharing your video.  Your technique is very similar to mine.  However, I have a lot more trouble during the stage where you use both hands at the same time to push the dough and turn while on the table.  My dough tends to have too much friction with the table.  I've been blaming my dough, but after watching your video, I realized something.  In all the videos I've watched, the first step after removing the dough from the bag/container is to flip the dough around in a container of flour.  I don't, and that may be my problem.  I sprinkle dough on my Formica countertop and drop my oil coated ball on that and flip the dough a few times.  This creates a film of oil and dough that has stuck to the surface of my table.  I'm generous with adding flour to my table, but it doesn't seem to help.  I think the oil soaked flour stuck to the table is what is creating all the friction and why I have so much trouble pushing the dough with both hands.  Or, maybe my smooth Formica table is the problem.
As far as soapstone goes, I think it's high conductivity makes it very unforgiving.  I'm convinced it will yield great results once I figure out how to effectively use it in my home gas oven.
Dave


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2011, 10:51:19 AM »
Dave,

The subject of what kind of work surface to use to open up dough balls and form skins comes up from time to time at the PMQ Think Tank. Examples are the threads at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8954&hilit=#p60984 and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6683&p=43707&hilit=metal+wood+lehmann#p43414. Also, when I was researching how Papa John's and Domino's prepare their dough skins, I noticed that they use a metal work surface along with a bench flour, cornmeal or a flour blend of some sort. See, for example, the videos at and . From what I can tell from my reading, metal seems to be the preference among many pizza operators in the U.S. In Italy, marble is a popular choice. I normally use a wood butcher block surface but I also have a slab of a material that is almost glass-like, and that works better for opening up a dough ball right on the surface of the slab, much as is shown in the abovereferenced videos.

Peter

Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2011, 11:38:46 AM »
Pete-zza,
The videos were informative and entertaining, but do I really have to go out and buy a stainless steel surface or can I get by with a Formica countertop?  Is there something about Formica that is undesirable?  I understand that a pizzeria wouldn't want it since it wouldn't stand up to the wear and tear.  On the other hand, can I expect to be able to form the dough as was illustrated in the videos on Formica?  Those guys were lightning fast.  Would they have significant problems if they tried it on Formica?
Dave

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2011, 12:09:55 PM »
Dave,

I referenced the different posts merely to point out that some work surfaces are better than others for opening up skins. I, too, have Formica work surfaces in my kitchen, but I don't use them for forming skins. So, I don't have an idea as to how using Formica compares with other alternatives. Maybe other members who also have Formica and form their skins on such a material will be able to speak more authoritatively on the subject.

Peter

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2011, 12:20:48 PM »
Dave,

I have formica work surfaces in where I live too, and have used them to open dough.  They worked okay, but I usually use my old wood table to open my dough balls.  I donít know why, but the old wood table seems to work better for me, when opening dough balls.  I did also start with a stainless steel table at market to open dough, before I tried the marble slab I had stored in my shed.  The stainless steel table also worked well. 

I would be interested in hearing what other members have used to open their doughs and hear if they noticed any difference in opening their doughs on different surfaces.

It takes time to get lighting fast in opening up dough skins.  I still am not that fast in opening skins.

Norma
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:22:29 PM by norma427 »
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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2011, 12:25:08 PM »
I use Formica, plastic cutting board, and a marble slab.  I haven't noticed any particular difference.

scott123

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2011, 01:09:40 PM »
Dave, it may seem counter intuitive, but excess oil can have a negative impact on dough manageability. I've noticed it most when launching off the peel, but I've also noticed it when stretching out the skin. I've also found it to create a less palatable, excessively floured crust as the oil really sucks up a lot of flour.

You want to use just enough oil on your containers so that the dough releases easily, but not so much that the dough is oily going on to the work surface. The shape of the container makes a big difference.  As the dough creeps up the side, there is a greater tendency for the dough to stick, creating a need for more oil to make sure the dough releases properly.  The wider the container, the better, with the ideal scenario, imo, being a large flat plastic proofing pan- large enough where the dough balls touch neither the walls or each other and can be scooped out gently with a plastic scraper. Unfortunately, standard proofing pans usually don't fit in average home refrigerators, and although there's a company that makes half size pans, the size may not  be large enough for typical NY style doughs with moderate hydrations.  In other words, a proofing pan may not work for everyone, but it's good to look for as much surface area as possible when choosing a container.

Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2011, 02:26:05 PM »
Scott123,
I think you hit the nail on the head.  I use containers that are deep, yet narrow, which is undesirable as you mentioned, so I use more oil than I would like to.  I'm going to try to make some room in my refrigerator so I can use a bigger container.  Maybe I can throw away my wifes two month old potato chip dip.  What about using plastic bags?
Dave

scott123

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2011, 03:56:46 PM »
Dave, I think plastic bags are probably the worst proofing containers, as they maximize contact with the container and require lots of oil.

Here are traditional proofing pans

http://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/Product_600605

These are sized more for Neapolitan doughs, although, from my calculations, you should be able to fit 4 NY style balls (for 16" pies) if you stagger them.  Earlier you mentioned M. Teixeira, are you in NJ? If so, Corrados in Clifton has these for around $12.  The exterior dimension on the long end is 27" though, so my fridge isn't big enough.  I also, at this point, tend to make 4 balls but only bake 2 balls at a time, which means I'd have to transfer the dough to other containers to warm up.

Here are the half size pans that I mentioned earlier:

http://www.doughmate.com/artisanproducttrays.html

I'm pretty sure that although these are slightly smaller than 1/2 the regular size ones, 2 dough balls (16") should still fit. I'm not in love with the $40 (including shipping) price tag, though.

Most of the pizzerias in my area use aluminum proofing pans like these:

http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=12481&keyword=Related%20Items

These are pretty standard for slice places.  Since most slice places work with same day doughs, the aluminum doesn't have much time to react with the acids in the dough.  I don't think I want a two day dough sitting in aluminum for all that long, and, should I ever get into sourdoughs, the acid in those would definitely cross these off the list.

Here's what I'm using now:

http://www.bakedeco.com/a/plastic-dough-pan-s-12232.htm

As I clicked on this link to confirm it, I notice that they now have a larger size:

http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=23241&keyword=Related%20Items

Had they offered these at the time, I definitely would have bought these instead, as my 16" doughs will sometime get past me and stick against the top of the smaller pans.

The big downside to these is that you can't see the bottom of the dough, which, for a beginner, is critical for detecting proper fermentation.

I'm not a huge fan of the size, but the Pyrex round glass 7 cup container works pretty well:

http://www.amazon.com/Pyrex-Storage-7-Cup-Round-Plastic/dp/B000LOWN3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I've been keeping my eye out for larger round glass containers, but, so far, this is the largest and most easily found (walmart, target, kmart, etc.).  I did come across this set from Italy:

http://www.greenfeet.com/itemdesc.asp?kw=Glass-Round-Storage-Bowls-and-Lids-Set4-&ic=6007-00480-0000

As far as size goes, I really like the 12 cup capacity XL bowl, but I can't find it on it's own.

Your best bet would probably be to lose the clear bottom 'training wheels' as fast as possible (by detecting smell and knowing time frames for previous doughs with similar ratios/proofing conditions) and then graduate up to real proofing pans, either rectangular or round.


Offline ddolinoy

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2011, 04:25:42 PM »
Scott123,
I have been to Corrados in Clifton.  That is where I buy my All Trumps flour.  They have a large assortment of containers.  I bought some nice metal ones there, but they are deeper than they are wide.  At least they fit my refrigerator.  I'd like to buy wider ones so the dough doesn't touch the side, but they wouldn't fit in my refrigerator.
Dave

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2011, 04:36:23 PM »
Norma has used storage bags in her pizza business and may still be using them. The recommendation to use such bags came from Tom Lehmann as a space saving measure, as discussed in the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7481&hilit. The bags Norma has used are a commercial product but in a home setting empty bread bags can be used as a substitute. Zip-type storage bags can also be used provided one can remove the dough balls without mangling them. Most people who use the zip-type storage bags use a light oil spray to keep the dough balls from sticking.

Peter

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2011, 05:41:03 PM »
Norma has used storage bags in her pizza business and may still be using them. The recommendation to use such bags came from Tom Lehmann as a space saving measure, as discussed in the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7481&hilit. The bags Norma has used are a commercial product but in a home setting empty bread bags can be used as a substitute. Zip-type storage bags can also be used provided one can remove the dough balls without mangling them. Most people who use the zip-type storage bags use a light oil spray to keep the dough balls from sticking.

Peter

Peter,

You are right, I am still using food grade plastic bags for all my doughs at market.  They seem to work well for storing the dough balls and even for freezing dough balls.  These are plastic bags I buy for dough balls at market.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/plastic-food-bag-6x3x12-1000-bx/1306312%20%20%20%20%201M.html   Those bags come in a box of 1,000 bags.  I only lightly oil my dough balls the same as I do at home.  I am sure Dave and anyone else that is interested can see the plastic bags in the video I referenced at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12643.msg122168.html#msg122168 when I was opening the dough ball.

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2011, 09:33:40 PM »
Interesting,the frozen dough balls I used for an experiment,were also in plastic bags.When they thawed out and rose somewhat in the bag,they were still very easy to use and shape into any size.Got fantastic rim and spring from them,depending on how much of a rim I made.

Of course,I always removed them from the bag and very lightly balled them,just to shape it,and let it warm up for an hour or two.

The plastic bowls and lids I like to use are these:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/365454565_63bcadbc81.jpg

I use the different sizes for sauce making and dough rising.



-Bill

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2011, 09:41:46 PM »
Interesting,the frozen dough balls I used for an experiment,were also in plastic bags.When they thawed out and rose somewhat in the bag,they were still very easy to use and shape into any size.Got fantastic rim and spring from them,depending on how much of a rim I made.

Of course,I always removed them from the bag and very lightly balled them,just to shape it,and let it warm up for an hour or two.

The plastic bowls and lids I like to use are these:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/365454565_63bcadbc81.jpg

I use the different sizes for sauce making and dough rising.


Bill,

That is interesting you also froze your dough in balls in plastic bags and it worked out okay for you in terms of oven spring.  :)  I let my frozen dough balls defrost right in the plastic bags and use them directly from the bags into the flour to lightly dust them, before opening the dough ball.  There doesn't seem to be any problems with using frozen dough in plastic bags.

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2011, 09:58:18 PM »
Norma,

I was not clear enough when I posted that.I bought frozen dough balls,already frozen from GFS store.They came in 20 ounce sizes and were already wrapped/sealed in plastic bags.The brand was Primo Gusto Italian style dough balls.

They were actually very good dough balls,and Its gonna be tough for me to make better at times with a good mixer.I could make excellent pies with them.Sorry I was not more clear on that they were store bought.
 ;)




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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2011, 10:02:46 PM »
Norma,

I was not clear enough when I posted that.I bought frozen dough balls,already frozen from GFS store.They came in 20 ounce sizes and were already wrapped/sealed in plastic bags.The brand was Primo Gusto Italian style dough balls.

They were actually very good dough balls,and Its gonna be tough for me to make better at times with a good mixer.I could make excellent pies with them.Sorry I was not more clear on that they were store bought.
 ;)


Bill,

It was my old mind that forgot you had bought frozen dough balls before.   :-D  I remember now that you reminded me.   ;D

You can make good dough without a mixer.  You need a good formula and you should get nice airy rims.

Norma
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Re: Still Trying to Get Big Air Bubbles in My Rim
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2011, 10:27:12 PM »
Sorry, I think there's a little confusion here.  When I say

Dave, I think plastic bags are probably the worst proofing containers, as they maximize contact with the container and require lots of oil.

It's in the context of this thread and Dave's/my own particular parameters.

It meant something along the lines of:

Dave, I think plastic bags are probably the worst proofing containers for generally sticky All Trumps minimally kneaded 65% hydration doughs, as they maximize contact with the container and require lots of oil.

As you get into longer kneads, preferments, sourdoughs and different flours/hydrations, the potential for less sticky doughs is far greater and, in those cases, I'm sure plastic bags work well.


 

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